Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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J
I think most OSAS are concerned about they or their loved ones losing one's salvation over committing too many "avon" or "cheit" sins.
Let me explain:
In Judaism, all sins are referred to as "avera". There are three types of avera:
1. Pesha-deliberate sin committed in deliberate defiance of God.
2. Avon-sin of lust or uncontrollable desire. Avon sins are committed knowingly, but not done to defy God. 99% of the trials of this life for all Christians, arguably, is the struggle against commiting avon sins. Compare alcohol and drug addiction as an analogy.
3. Cheit-unintentional sin committed in ignorance.
Of the three, I would dare to say one could see a person losing their salvation over Pesha sin, and this type is what you are implying by the sentiment "sin all they want", but I don't think you can lose salvation for Avon sin and especially not Cheit sin. I think Christ locked down these latter two. If not, we're walking through a minefield, one that will inevitably blow us up.
Let me explain:
In Judaism, all sins are referred to as "avera". There are three types of avera:
1. Pesha-deliberate sin committed in deliberate defiance of God.
2. Avon-sin of lust or uncontrollable desire. Avon sins are committed knowingly, but not done to defy God. 99% of the trials of this life for all Christians, arguably, is the struggle against commiting avon sins. Compare alcohol and drug addiction as an analogy.
3. Cheit-unintentional sin committed in ignorance.
Of the three, I would dare to say one could see a person losing their salvation over Pesha sin, and this type is what you are implying by the sentiment "sin all they want", but I don't think you can lose salvation for Avon sin and especially not Cheit sin. I think Christ locked down these latter two. If not, we're walking through a minefield, one that will inevitably blow us up.
Oh gosh, I had no clue as to what OSAS even meant!! LOL! I had to google it.......Once Saved, Always Saved. Okay, I get it now.
Well, this is my take on it......
The "flesh" or "selfish" or "carnal" nature is always looking for the easy way - it thinks it can get a free ride with the "soul that is SAVED." Listen, GOD HATES OUR FLESH!! HE WANTS A BURNT OFFERING - TOTALLY CONSUMED - NOTHING LEFT. Our flesh is in our human intellect - it seeks everything except God. The human intellect has no ability to know God, unless the person becomes born again and filled with the knowledge of God by the Spirit.
HOWEVER, God loves our soul and spirit - this is the part of us that will be SAVED and ALWAYS SAVED. It's the FLESH that wants to say, "Okay, soul now that you're saved we can just go back to our old ways and still go to heaven." Yet, the soul that loves God will NOT be happy in it's old ways and struggle.
God communes with our soul, God loves our soul, God restores our soul. However, GOD HATES OUR FLESH - the selfish, sinful nature - God's plan is to destroy it. God has declared "open season" on our flesh - meaning the devil attacks our flesh, demons attack our flesh, our flesh attacks others' flesh - this is why we fight with each other over stupid selfish stuff - it's a battlefield - our flesh is fed to the birds!!! Get out of your flesh - be born again of the Spirit, walk and live by the Spirit. Deny your flesh, take up your cross and follow Jesus! Amen? Amen!
We're no good to the Kingdom of God, if we are walking in our flesh (just plain being selfish and all about ourselves.). Arise! Be led by the Spirit of God - go about doing good, destroying the works of the devil. Or, "go about doing good, destroying the works of the flesh!
Choose to love. Be kind. Forgive. Find the lost. Build up the broken. Heal the sick. Preach the good news - all are forgiven - salvation has come! Hallelujah!
Well, this is my take on it......
The "flesh" or "selfish" or "carnal" nature is always looking for the easy way - it thinks it can get a free ride with the "soul that is SAVED." Listen, GOD HATES OUR FLESH!! HE WANTS A BURNT OFFERING - TOTALLY CONSUMED - NOTHING LEFT. Our flesh is in our human intellect - it seeks everything except God. The human intellect has no ability to know God, unless the person becomes born again and filled with the knowledge of God by the Spirit.
HOWEVER, God loves our soul and spirit - this is the part of us that will be SAVED and ALWAYS SAVED. It's the FLESH that wants to say, "Okay, soul now that you're saved we can just go back to our old ways and still go to heaven." Yet, the soul that loves God will NOT be happy in it's old ways and struggle.
God communes with our soul, God loves our soul, God restores our soul. However, GOD HATES OUR FLESH - the selfish, sinful nature - God's plan is to destroy it. God has declared "open season" on our flesh - meaning the devil attacks our flesh, demons attack our flesh, our flesh attacks others' flesh - this is why we fight with each other over stupid selfish stuff - it's a battlefield - our flesh is fed to the birds!!! Get out of your flesh - be born again of the Spirit, walk and live by the Spirit. Deny your flesh, take up your cross and follow Jesus! Amen? Amen!
We're no good to the Kingdom of God, if we are walking in our flesh (just plain being selfish and all about ourselves.). Arise! Be led by the Spirit of God - go about doing good, destroying the works of the devil. Or, "go about doing good, destroying the works of the flesh!
Choose to love. Be kind. Forgive. Find the lost. Build up the broken. Heal the sick. Preach the good news - all are forgiven - salvation has come! Hallelujah!
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The born again Christian, who has received the Holy Spirit, has the choice each day, to either live according to the flesh, or live according to the Spirit.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
again
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-14
Each of us will stand before the Lord on the Day of Judgement, to be Judged according to our deeds.
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
JPT
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
again
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-14
- For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
- but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Each of us will stand before the Lord on the Day of Judgement, to be Judged according to our deeds.
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
JPT
So you are saying there are two classes of Christians? Those who continually live according to the flesh and will not be saved and those who continually live according to the Spirit and will be saved? So where exactly do you draw the line in the sand?
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, we read 1 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to carnal/men of flesh, as to babes/infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still carnal/fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? *Are these babes/infants IN CHRIST saved or lost?
Romans 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
I often hear works-salvationists, (including Roman Catholics and Mormons etc..) cite these passages of scripture in their efforts to try and prove that salvation is based on works.
If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scripture, it's very important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, we read 1 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to carnal/men of flesh, as to babes/infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3 for you are still carnal/fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? *Are these babes/infants IN CHRIST saved or lost?
Romans 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
I often hear works-salvationists, (including Roman Catholics and Mormons etc..) cite these passages of scripture in their efforts to try and prove that salvation is based on works.
If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scripture, it's very important to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.
So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.
*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
R
The question is not if Jesus has the power to keep one saved. The question is are you going to stay in the one who can keep you saved.
God does not allow the person who has forfeited their salvation to come back to repentance. Once it's over, it's over. Salvation most certainly is not a revolving door.
God does not allow the person who has forfeited their salvation to come back to repentance. Once it's over, it's over. Salvation most certainly is not a revolving door.
Original question: Why do some of us keep debating OSAS till we puke? !! LOL!
I think it is an important subject and I care deeply about it because:
I want believers to have security in Christ and have assurance of salvation. Belief in OSAS is one of the greatest reasons for insecurity and deception because (according to this view) salvation is based on an event in the past (conversion) and thus this event can be called into question if the person does not live correctly. Thus if a person is not doing enough good works, a typical OSAS believer will say - "That person was never saved in the first place".
In contrast to OSAS, I believe my salvation is based on my belief in Christ right now. If I am believing right now, I know that I am saved.
I think it is an important subject and I care deeply about it because:
I want believers to have security in Christ and have assurance of salvation. Belief in OSAS is one of the greatest reasons for insecurity and deception because (according to this view) salvation is based on an event in the past (conversion) and thus this event can be called into question if the person does not live correctly. Thus if a person is not doing enough good works, a typical OSAS believer will say - "That person was never saved in the first place".
In contrast to OSAS, I believe my salvation is based on my belief in Christ right now. If I am believing right now, I know that I am saved.
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No.
I am saying the the born again, Spirit filled Christian has a choice.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-14
I am saying the the born again, Spirit filled Christian has a choice.
- To live according to the flesh
- To live according to the Spirit
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-14
- For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
- but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Actually that is what Paul says.
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21
again
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
To the Ephesians, he says -
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7
Paul makes it clear to the Romans, who will receive eternal life on the Day of Judgement.
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
JPT
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:16-21
- those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
again
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
To the Ephesians, he says -
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:3-7
- because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
- Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Paul makes it clear to the Romans, who will receive eternal life on the Day of Judgement.
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
JPT
So what you are suggesting is that Christians can be on a faith "see-saw" and love it! You believe today and you are saved. You disbelieve tomorrow and you are unsaved. Then you pull up your socks, and believe on the following day, and you are saved all over again. Do you see how absurd and unbiblical this is?
On the other hand, if you heard the Gospel and were convicted and convinced, and then you truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and repented genuinely, then you would have been born again -- born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God. You would become a new creature in Christ, and you would become an obedient child of God and servant of Christ. There would be no going back to your evil ways and your filthy lifestyle (if that is what you came out of).
Your salvation is NOT based on your believing right now. It is based purely on God's grace and Christ's finished work of redemption.
On the other hand, if you heard the Gospel and were convicted and convinced, and then you truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and repented genuinely, then you would have been born again -- born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God. You would become a new creature in Christ, and you would become an obedient child of God and servant of Christ. There would be no going back to your evil ways and your filthy lifestyle (if that is what you came out of).
Your salvation is NOT based on your believing right now. It is based purely on God's grace and Christ's finished work of redemption.
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Questions for the debate teams 
1. How many times have you repeated a pro or con OSAS argument here (at CC not just this thread) over the last 6 months?
2. How many people have those arguments convinced to change their stand on the issue?
1. How many times have you repeated a pro or con OSAS argument here (at CC not just this thread) over the last 6 months?
2. How many people have those arguments convinced to change their stand on the issue?
Are you taking the Christian walk for credit or are you just auditing the course?
I who was at one time a slave to sin am now a slave to righteousness in Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2.
Unless you continue to believe to the end, you initial believing was done in vain.
JPT
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