Why Command Death?

[posthuman]

it's usually an atheist's argument, but you'll find that some Christians say the same thing, either openly or implicitly through what else they believe:

that the god of the old testament is not the god of the new.
that the god of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua, Judges etc. is evil, brutal & merciless.

i believe people come to this because they read things like the destruction of Sodom, commands to put people to death under the Law, and commands to the Hebrews to totally destroy cities like Jericho, killing everyone in it, even the livestock, and, implicitly holding all physical human life at the highest value, presume that no good god can ever command the death of anyone. they can't see any good reason for anyone to ever be put to death, so they presume god is wicked.

so i'd like to discuss why God - who is always good - would command a death penalty? why would He destroy a city or a nation or a people?
how is this good ?

 

[posthuman]

what i see as a path to understanding this is recognizing that God is as a shepherd to His flock. this is a repeated motif in scripture - two examples that come quickly to mind are Psalm 23 & John 10. YHVH is my Shepherd; Jesus is the Shepherd, the Good One ((re Zechariah 11)).
consider a shepherd who cares for his flock, finding a wolf prowling near them. does a good shepherd kill the wolf?
when he does - what he is doing is protecting his sheep. he is saving them from what will destroy them if he does not intervene.
that is what i see God is doing: saving His people; protecting them from evil by eradicating it.

consider a virus, or a bacterial infection - we know they are living things. a physician tending a person sick works to make them well by killing the infection. millions, billions of living creatures put to death to preserve the life of the individual.
and this is good.

 

[trofimus]

My personal opinion is that in those times there was so much paganism, witchcraft and false gods in the middle east of those times that it could be influenced by fallen angels and their offspring (giants). Their culture was satanic and it probably somehow influenced their DNA, too.

When israel came into the promised land, they saw giants and were very much scared. Also the samples of fruits of that land were gigantic and not natural.

Thats why it was so important not to let anybody alive. Similar to situation before the flood.

But its not said in the Bible, just my opinion.

 

[NayborBear]

It's about "war!" Since the "garden of Eden" incident, and yea, even before! In war, people die! When war in the spiritual realm/s becomes so interfused with "flesh", that it becomes a case for "surviving?" Then, it's KILL, or be killed!

It has been watered down, and softened up, and watered down the softening up, so often, and so many times, over the course of this present earth/heaven age, that good Christian people, feel so secure in their faith, that they never seem to cease in their strivings of trying to take in wounded scorpions, in the hopes of, after nursing them back to health, they may be converted. Never realizing the sublimity of the scorpions claws, as they clasp hold of their victim. And all the while when the good person is trying to render aid and comfort, in one area, that tail, is relentlessly stinging that good person. Paralyzing it, while the digestive acids secret into the good person, and start breaking down heart, soul, spirit, and fruit of the Spirit! Usually, without the good person even being cognizant, that he/she was even regarded as "prey" to begin with!

Yet? The God of Israel knew this! Yet, as often as He showed the children of Israel? They constantly and consistently allowed these scorpions in! As God's "loving kindness", which endures forever, tried to keep His children safe and secure? They kept drifting away.....further and further!

FWIW? Nothing has changed from my first sentence! Sure, the words and dancing steps have been rearranged, updated, etc. But, the song remains the same! And shall be, until our Father, gives His only begotten Son, Jesus of Nazareth, the green light! And, that won't be until our Father, renders our enemies as a footstool for Jesus!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

one thing we have to remember, there was alot of grace in the OT. As God told abraham, I give you this land, but your descendents will be foriegners for 400 years because the sin of the amorite was not yet complete. God did not just say go kill these people for no reason. He offered them grace and waited until there was nothing he would do to change their mind. At that point, it would have been more dangerous to Isreal to let them live then to take them out. As proven by the fact Israel did not take all of them out, and they have been a thorn in Israels flesh ever since,

 

[preston39]

it's usually an atheist's argument, but you'll find that some Christians say the same thing, either openly or implicitly through what else they believe:

that the god of the old testament is not the god of the new.
that the god of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua, Judges etc. is evil, brutal & merciless.

i believe people come to this because they read things like the destruction of Sodom, commands to put people to death under the Law, and commands to the Hebrews to totally destroy cities like Jericho, killing everyone in it, even the livestock, and, implicitly holding all physical human life at the highest value, presume that no good god can ever command the death of anyone. they can't see any good reason for anyone to ever be put to death, so they presume god is wicked.

so i'd like to discuss why God - who is always good - would command a death penalty? why would He destroy a city or a nation or a people?
how is this good ?

p....,

G-d is G-d and It is G-d's plan. Why can't that just be accepted?

You or I have no ability to understand G-d's actions as well as His strategic long range plan and it's implications. It is far beyond our mental level. Therefore we are not to question Him.

It is ours to have...faith...trust and belief in G-d as a superior element of our being.

I trust Him totally to be righteous.

 

[MattforJesus]

God is not cruel, people are cruel, and we know that God will judge all people, but in the Old Testament He judged on earth.

In the New Testament God said all wars come from people the lust of their flesh, for there is no need for God to judge on earth as He once did, because spiritual salvation has come.

God said in the New Testament He winked at the ignorance of the Gentiles, but now commands all people everywhere to repent, so for the most part God left the Gentiles alone.

God even blessed Babylon greatly when she rode on eagle's wings when king Nebuchadnezzar proclaimed throughout his kingdom to acknowledge the God of Israel for He is the greatest God of all the gods, and if any person said anything amiss against Him they were cut in pieces and their house made a dunghill, but when the king died his son took the throne and blew it, so God allowed the Medes and Persians to take the kingdom.

God puts down a thousand to save ten thousand, and all God did was for the benefit of people.

If God did not intercede in the Old Testament as He did more people would of been hurt, or killed, and perverted from the truth.

God had to protect Israel for if He did not they would of been wiped out, and then how could Jesus be born in to this world, and also when a nation or kingdom would get too physically cruel, and perverting His truth on earth God allowed another nation or kingdom to take them down.

But for the most part God left the Gentile nations alone.

If a son was walking with his dad in the park and a man ran up on the son to stab him and his dad put him down, would the son say gee dad you are cruel, or would he thank his dad.

If God did not intercede in the Old Testament to put down nations, and kingdoms, that were too physically cruel, and perverting his ways on earth that extended too far, Israel would of been wiped out, and more people would of been hurt, and killed, and perverted from the truth.

The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament, and Jesus said He came to do the will of the Father, so the love that Jesus showed on earth, is the same love that applies today, and it is the love of the Father.

God is not cruel, people are cruel, and God prevented them from being too cruel in the Old Testament, and from perverting His truth that extended too far, for God cannot have the earth perverted from His truth.

That is why the flood, and the scattering of them at the tower of Babel, and will happen again in the future, but it is the last time God deals with them to put them down, for they perverted God's ways throughout the earth, which they will devour the whole earth, tread it down, and break it in pieces, and acknowledge no personal God taking away the hope of the world, and will be physically cruel to take away every single person that opposes their kingdom, so it is over and this sin business on earth over.

 

[dcontroversal]

what i see as a path to understanding this is recognizing that God is as a shepherd to His flock. this is a repeated motif in scripture - two examples that come quickly to mind are Psalm 23 & John 10. YHVH is my Shepherd; Jesus is the Shepherd, the Good One ((re Zechariah 11)).
consider a shepherd who cares for his flock, finding a wolf prowling near them. does a good shepherd kill the wolf?
when he does - what he is doing is protecting his sheep. he is saving them from what will destroy them if he does not intervene.
that is what i see God is doing: saving His people; protecting them from evil by eradicating it.

consider a virus, or a bacterial infection - we know they are living things. a physician tending a person sick works to make them well by killing the infection. millions, billions of living creatures put to death to preserve the life of the individual.
and this is good.

I would point out that even within the ranks of the destruction of a city, people, nation etc....the mercy of God is seen.....for example.....

When Jericho was razed and put to the sword with the instruction to kill men, women, children, etc.....God is essence, was also at the same time sparing many children and babies that had not yet reached the age of understanding the possibility of growing up lost in a false religion and then dying and waking up in hell.

The same can be said of the flood, Sodom, Gomorrah, Jerusalem x 2, The Northern Kingdom of Israel, Judah, Babylon, Assyria, Nineveh etc.......

 

[Deade]

God looks at life and death differently than we do. There is the tendency for slave children to look to their roots. If the children were kept, they would probably worship their ancestors gods. That is the way it generally goes.

God was very insistent on the death penalty on the crimes that he ordered. The Israelites were told to put evil away from them. It needs to happen sooner than 12-15 years after their crimes.

Eccl. 8:11 "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."

 

[shrume]

I would point out that even within the ranks of the destruction of a city, people, nation etc....the mercy of God is seen.....for example.....

When Jericho was razed and put to the sword with the instruction to kill men, women, children, etc.....God is essence, was also at the same time sparing many children and babies that had not yet reached the age of understanding the possibility of growing up lost in a false religion and then dying and waking up in hell.

The same can be said of the flood, Sodom, Gomorrah, Jerusalem x 2, The Northern Kingdom of Israel, Judah, Babylon, Assyria, Nineveh etc.......

I know it's a common belief, but where do people get the idea that children are automatically saved?

What does Paul mean here?

1 Cor 7:
14) For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Why are the children holy? Because at least one of the parents believe.

 

[BenFTW]

The penalty for sin is death, and of all persons, wouldn't you think if there was another way, God would've done it? Yet, what happened? Jesus, the Son of God, died for humanity, he suffered not only the pain of crucifixion but the shame, having been innocent yet given the punishment as if guilty. People wish to say its unfair, yet God Himself bore the penalty on behalf of mankind.

 

[garee]

it's usually an atheist's argument, but you'll find that some Christians say the same thing, either openly or implicitly through what else they believe:

that the god of the old testament is not the god of the new.
that the god of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua, Judges etc. is evil, brutal & merciless.

i believe people come to this because they read things like the destruction of Sodom, commands to put people to death under the Law, and commands to the Hebrews to totally destroy cities like Jericho, killing everyone in it, even the livestock, and, implicitly holding all physical human life at the highest value, presume that no good god can ever command the death of anyone. they can't see any good reason for anyone to ever be put to death, so they presume god is wicked.

so i'd like to discuss why God - who is always good - would command a death penalty? why would He destroy a city or a nation or a people?
how is this good ?

God defines what is good and what is evil by that which he creates . When mankind followed the voice of another.... light became darkness.

There are two kinds of evil. One kind by sinning against the Creator ending in death and the other an evil God brings against one nation using another.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[Nehemiah6]

so i'd like to discuss why God - who is always good - would command a death penalty? why would He destroy a city or a nation or a people?
how is this good ?

What people need to understand is the full character of God. Not only is God Love (which brings out His goodness), but God is also Light, and in Him is not darkness at all. And this brings out His holiness and wrath against sin and evil.

Which means that God's absolute holiness and absolute righteousness DEMAND that anything contrary to the character of God must be (a) punished and (b) banished from His presence.

The death penalty is the consequence of disobedience to the laws of God. Had Adam obeyed God without question, there would have been no reason to execute the death penalty. But disobedience brought death, as well as a curse upon humanity and creation.

Everyone who died under God's command in the OT received a JUST REWARD and compensation for evil words or evil deeds, or both. Since the coming of Christ God is reserving His wrath against all ungodliness because we are in the Day of Grace. God is offering salvation to all who will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But those who do not obey the Gospel will be damned.

ROMANS 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[dcontroversal]

I know it's a common belief, but where do people get the idea that children are automatically saved?

What does Paul mean here?

1 Cor 7:
14) For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Why are the children holy? Because at least one of the parents believe.

No...God is fair and there is proof....the first born of David from Bathsheba was killed by God at one week old...David immediately rose and went to the temple and worship God...He also said....I WILL GO TO HIM......it is obvious that David was a saved child of GOD and if babies or children went to hell then NO WAY David would of said what he said....

2nd....PAUL said that he was ALIVE once without the law and the law came sin revived and he died....HOW DID HE DIE...it was not physically so we have to conclude it had to be SPIRITUAL....this could mean that Paul as a child was alive under the law as a child and when the concept of guilt from the law came he realized and died spiritually

MY VIEW....ALL children that have not reached the age or point of understanding are "SAFE" under the blood....also all who are born mentally unable to make a conscience decision and or know that they are sinful before a righteous GOD....

THE above two points about David and PAUL seem to indicate this truth.......

3rd and not saying this goes to the above two points but also a point to be made.....when the children of Israel sinned in the wilderness....GOD killed all over 20 except Joshua and Caleb

The above three point to the fairness of God and I fully believe they are principles that can be gleaned from the word.....

AND possibly the scripture you posted

 

[Adstar]

it's usually an atheist's argument, but you'll find that some Christians say the same thing, either openly or implicitly through what else they believe:

that the god of the old testament is not the god of the new.
that the god of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua, Judges etc. is evil, brutal & merciless.

i believe people come to this because they read things like the destruction of Sodom, commands to put people to death under the Law, and commands to the Hebrews to totally destroy cities like Jericho, killing everyone in it, even the livestock, and, implicitly holding all physical human life at the highest value, presume that no good god can ever command the death of anyone. they can't see any good reason for anyone to ever be put to death, so they presume god is wicked.

so i'd like to discuss why God - who is always good - would command a death penalty? why would He destroy a city or a nation or a people?
how is this good ?

I believe there is a problem with the average persons interpretation of the world Good..

When people say someone else is good they are usually thinking of them as kind generous gentle.. But in terms of the Bible and God Good means Perfect.. God is perfect..

Of course anyone with an ounce of honesty will admit that they are not perfect.. In fact human beings are far from being perfect even when some suffer from the delusion of thinking they are close to being perfect..

So if we see God as a Perfect all powerful God then read the OT it is easier to accept that a perfect God would bring judgement and destruction upon all human beings who are imperfect thus sinners thus worthy of being executed..

The perfect judgement for sin is death.. And in the OT God made examples of sinners by physically executing them.. Either by His own hand in bringing what we call ""natural disasters"" upon them, Or by getting His servants ""Usually the Jews"" but also non Jews (( in cases where He was executing the Jews example bringing the Babylonians to defeat and carry the Jews into captivity )) to execute His wrath..

People who have the Idea that the God of the OT is different to the God of the NT really need to read the NT book of Revelation.. If they do so then they will find that it will show them that the Returning LORD Jesus Christ will be carrying out more executions / deaths of more people then at any time in History.. Billions of people will be executed by the LORD Jesus Christ in the future.. We read in the Book of Revelation the following description of the future return of Jesus::

Revelation 19: KJV
11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

This is Jesus people... This is what Jesus will be like on the day of His return...

So while Jesus is perfect in mercy and love very quick to forgive repentant sinners and to wipe out all their transgressions by His Atoning Blood. He is also perfect in justice and will wipe out all those with death who have transgressed the Will of God and who have rejected the loving forgiveness offered by God through the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Don't kid yourselves peoples.. God is both a God of Loving Mercy AND a God of fierce Wrath. So get on the right side of the LORD by believing Him and trusting in the Atonement He has lovingly provided for you to be saved from his eternal wrath.

 

[mcubed]

Believe or or not I was against the death penalty my who life up until 10 or so years ago. I worked as a paralegal for the Attorney General of Ohio in capital crimes. Now that is an oxymoron... Against the death penalty but helped the government finally put to death people that were on death row for 20 years or more in the State of Ohio.

I was against it because I thought what if one day they would get saved.... But the Lord spoke to me one day and said "if they will not get saved facing death, they will never be saved".

We have to answer in this life. But even the evil of evil, Jeffrey Dahmer's, child molesters, even those that rape 5 year old boys and perforated there rectume and killed them can go to heaven if they ask Messiah to be their Lord and Savior. And even though I may not understand being stoned for adultery in the 21st century, although when I first got divorced I wished it was still practiced in the US)....lol There is a piece of me that sees the value of G-d making humans accountable for sin.... even the break up of family because of our sin....

So G-d never missed it with capital punishment I just hope we don't miss it and allow what we call "ok" for today.... and

 

[shrume]

No...God is fair

Of course God is fair. I never said He wasn't.

and there is proof....the first born of David from Bathsheba was killed by God at one week old...David immediately rose and went to the temple and worship God...He also said....I WILL GO TO HIM......it is obvious that David was a saved child of GOD and if babies or children went to hell then NO WAY David would of said what he said....

When David said he "would go to him", he was not talking about going to where the infant's soul supposedly was. David knew the child was dead, and that David would indeed go to him (to see the dead child's body), but the child would not return to him. The child was dead, David knew it, there was nothing he could do about it, and it was time to move on.

2nd....PAUL said that he was ALIVE once without the law and the law came sin revived and he died....HOW DID HE DIE...it was not physically so we have to conclude it had to be SPIRITUAL....this could mean that Paul as a child was alive under the law as a child and when the concept of guilt from the law came he realized and died spiritually

Paul was not talking about himself as a child. I believe he was talking in a general manner. People are alive, not knowing God, when they start to learn about God, and realize they need to keep the law, they know they can't, effectively sentencing themselves to death. I don't believe that passage has anything to do with reaching an age of accountability.

MY VIEW....ALL children that have not reached the age or point of understanding are "SAFE" under the blood....

That is a lots of people's view. I'm just wondering where it comes from in the Bible.

also all who are born mentally unable to make a conscience decision and or know that they are sinful before a righteous GOD....

I generally agree with you there...

THE above two points about David and PAUL seem to indicate this truth.......

I do not think those two passages support your position at all.

3rd and not saying this goes to the above two points but also a point to be made.....when the children of Israel sinned in the wilderness....GOD killed all over 20 except Joshua and Caleb

Do you believe the age of accountability is 20? I don't. In the Biblical culture, at the age of 20 people were often married and had families of their own.

The above three point to the fairness of God and I fully believe they are principles that can be gleaned from the word.....

AND possibly the scripture you posted

I absolutely do believe that God is fair. But I do not see in the Bible that children are automatically saved just because they're children. ALL of us are guilty before God, and ALL of us need salvation. The Bible does say that children of a believing parent are sanctified. I do not see where all children are automatically saved.

 

[adhidw]

it's usually an atheist's argument, but you'll find that some Christians say the same thing, either openly or implicitly through what else they believe:

that the god of the old testament is not the god of the new.
that the god of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Leviticus, Joshua, Judges etc. is evil, brutal & merciless.

i believe people come to this because they read things like the destruction of Sodom, commands to put people to death under the Law, and commands to the Hebrews to totally destroy cities like Jericho, killing everyone in it, even the livestock, and, implicitly holding all physical human life at the highest value, presume that no good god can ever command the death of anyone. they can't see any good reason for anyone to ever be put to death, so they presume god is wicked.

so i'd like to discuss why God - who is always good - would command a death penalty? why would He destroy a city or a nation or a people?
how is this good ?

Those all relate to the goal that God wants His people who are sojourning/wandering in this earth understand that the salvation is by God’s Grace alone, from this understanding then surely His people can bring Glory to God.

Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him

We can see this intend since the beginning, let’s see:
In the Gen 2:3 , God introduced the seventh day/ Sabbath, though in that day Adam and Eve still in a holy / not yet fell , where we know now that the Sabbath day refer to: “men will never be able to achieve their salvation through their own efforts/works , what ever it souds good , likened such who works on Sabbath day he or she surely shall be punished to dead “ .


God also :

Gen11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city

What’s for ? -----> just only to make them separate become many tribes , so God could chose one of them finally to be His chosen ( there should be many tribes that not communicate one to the other , so by then there should be only one tribe that has spiritually ears to hear, spiritually eyes to see , and non for the others ) ------> definitely chosen people.

So this chosen people is utterly different to others in the eyes of God , likened : Jacob from Esau , Abel from Cain , Wheat from tare ,vessel of mercy from vessel of wrath , written in the book of life from not written in the book of life before the creation of the world etc.

So what is the different then ?,--------> His people= the Chosen = born of God = there is spiritual being inside the body that God sent them to sojourn to this perishable earth ( e.g. ; Jacob’s spirit inside literal Jacob ), born of flesh = God did not put a spiritual being inside the literal human when he or she was born = worldly humans ( not different to animals Ecc3:19 pardon me not intend to sarcasm ) .

We can ponder that in: Noah flood surely there were very old men/women outside the ark, there were also mentally ill children outside the ark , there were pregnant women that time out side the ark etc. there were also in Sodom and surely in Joshua’s age.

Let’s see the relation or some things refer from the thousands sacrifices lambs/goats , and also these verses :

Pvb21:18 The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright

Isa43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee

These such Esau /empty vessels at the beginning one day are possible to be the devil’s camp (tares = devil resides inside them , John8:44 ) by then the devil shall be judged , without them then the devil shall never be able to be judged, there shall never be devil that transforms to be the angels of light, there shall never be antichrist , His churches will never be able to judge the devil ( 1Cor6:3) , this earth will never end .

It is the devil that shall be judged (rev20:12), the born of flesh will surely end by his or her physical dead. .

 

[dcontroversal]

Of course God is fair. I never said He wasn't.


When David said he "would go to him", he was not talking about going to where the infant's soul supposedly was. David knew the child was dead, and that David would indeed go to him (to see the dead child's body), but the child would not return to him. The child was dead, David knew it, there was nothing he could do about it, and it was time to move on.


Paul was not talking about himself as a child. I believe he was talking in a general manner. People are alive, not knowing God, when they start to learn about God, and realize they need to keep the law, they know they can't, effectively sentencing themselves to death. I don't believe that passage has anything to do with reaching an age of accountability.


That is a lots of people's view. I'm just wondering where it comes from in the Bible.


I generally agree with you there...


I do not think those two passages support your position at all.


Do you believe the age of accountability is 20? I don't. In the Biblical culture, at the age of 20 people were often married and had families of their own.


I absolutely do believe that God is fair. But I do not see in the Bible that children are automatically saved just because they're children. ALL of us are guilty before God, and ALL of us need salvation. The Bible does say that children of a believing parent are sanctified. I do not see where all children are automatically saved.

Your quote about David told me all I need to know....
AND your quote about Paul seems to deny the facts about alive, dead alive....
AND never even came close to implying that I believe the age of "accountability" is 20
good day!

 

[shrume]

Your quote about David told me all I need to know....
AND your quote about Paul seems to deny the facts about alive, dead alive....
AND never even came close to implying that I believe the age of "accountability" is 20
good day!

Have a good day yourself!