Baptism and holy spirit

[KelbyofGod]

I'm not understanding how speaking in tongues builds up ones faith (edifies them.) I know a verse says it, I just don't understand how it is.

That is a totally fair point of view to start with.

1. As you pointed out, the word of God states it, and God cannot lie.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; ...

2. The person speaking, and any human hearers do not know what is being said because it is not being spoken to them. Tongues is something being spoken to GOD, not men. ... as is stated in the very first clarifying verse about tongues in 1 Corinthians 14.
1Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him;... (I left off the last section of the verse so it could be highlighted, not disregarded, in the next point.

3. 1Co 14:2(b) " ...howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. " What is being said is hidden. but Romans 8:27(part a) Shows that God (the intended hearer) knows exactly what is being said...Rom 8:27 "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. "

4. Notice that the last half of Romans 8:27 is in total agreement with what is being said in 1 Corinthians 14:16-17 that prayer in the spirit, though still a mystery to others, is verily(truly) giving thanks well. 1Corinthians 14:16&17 "Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified."

5. Another reason prayer in the spirit (tongues) edifies us has to do with the nature of what is being prayed...as defined in Romans 8:26 (there are actually several really good points being made in this verse). Rom 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
5a. "helpeth our infirmities" = works to overcome our weaknesses
5b. "we know not what we should pray for" = our fleshly minds just don't know what actually needs prayed, no matter how smart or godly we think we are.
5c. "the spirit itself maketh intercession for us" = That's what speaking in tongues IS, the spirit praying FOR us ...because...
5d. "which cannot be uttered." = we (using our natural mind and language) cannot speak them because of 5b. "we know not what we should pray for". God simply made (through the Spirit) a way around this particular infirmity/obstacle.

It's a super smart solution using something that (at first) appears to make no sense.

I'd love to talk more on this but gotta get ready to leave.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I'm dense. I still don't understand how your faith is built up by talking to God but not understanding what you're saying.

 

[Ralph-]

I'm dense. I still don't understand how your faith is built up by talking to God but not understanding what you're saying.

It's a supernatural boost within the spirit of a person. Just like when you or I (who don't have the gift of tongues) worships and praises God in our natural minds in our understandable language, except for them much more deeply and effectively, without the interference of the natural mind and surroundings. They are serving a purpose that God knows must be served in this way. Either for them personally, or to energize them for effective ministry that God is working through them. Or both.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I'm dense. I still don't understand how your faith is built up by talking to God but not understanding what you're saying.

Simply put . . . It builds you up spiritually (edifies you). It's okay if you don't understand what you are saying - God knows exactly what you are saying . . . It's your spirit speaking directly to God, who is Spirit.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I guess I can understand that a little. When I hear Jesus being sung about and I feel those goosebumps and waves washing over me, it could be called a supernatural boost...great peace comes along with it, and a sudden realization that all you had been worrying over is not so important and is only temporal...

sorry, this was in response to ralph

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I disagree that Romans 8:26 is referring to tongues because it says that the spirit hears the unutterable sighings of the heart and intercedes accordingly. Tongues are uttered, i.e., spoken.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It's a supernatural boost within the spirit of a person. Just like when you or I (who don't have the gift of tongues)worships and praises God in our natural minds in our understandable language, except for them much more deeply and effectively, without the interference of the natural mind and surroundings. They are serving a purpose that God knows must be served in this way. Either for them personally, or to energize them for effective ministry that God is working through them. Or both.

(who don't have the gift of tongues) . . . . It's so sad that people don't understand that every believer has the gift of holy spirit and within that gift they, each believer, has the innate ability to manifest those nine listed things . . . IMHO . . .

 

[Ralph-]

I guess I can understand that a little. When I hear Jesus being sung about and I feel those goosebumps and waves washing over me, it could be called a supernatural boost...great peace comes along with it, and a sudden realization that all you had been worrying over is not so important and is only temporal...

That's right.
The Spirit comes out of the temple for all to see in response to the sacrifices of worship and praise made in the temple.

23Moses and Aaron went into the tent of meeting. When they came out (from making the sacrifices) and blessed the people, the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people. 24Then fire came out from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the portions of fat on the altar; and when all the people saw it, they shouted and fell on their faces."-Leviticus 9:23-24


Make the right sacrifices in praise and worship and obedience and service and learning and the Spirit will show Himself and He will come forth from his temple and you will see Him and you will be filled with joy and abundance of life and you will be powerful in whatever gift it is that you have been given. That is the Spirit filled life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

IOW, you are a cessationist.

Why not admit it?


I explained in some detail, with scripture references, the purpose of tongues.

If i was a cessationalist, i would believe god would never use tongues again, today or any other day,

You explained your view, and used some scripture which you think supported that view. I disagree with that view, but that does not mean i am against you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(who don't have the gift of tongues) . . . . It's so sad that people don't understand that every believer has the gift of holy spirit and within that gift they, each believer, has the innate ability to manifest those nine listed things . . . IMHO . . .

Sorry, thats not true, he HS gives as he determines based on need, not everyone has all gifts.

 

[Cee]

Ah, well see there dummy? You didn't quote any post so I didn't know you were 5 pages back. So it's still your fault I nagged at you. It seemed very out of character for you as I said.

But still...Paul could have been saying that if no one was present who understood the particular language being spoken and so no one present was hearing their own language and so could not say (interpret) what it was that was being spoken, then there was no use of speaking it out loud.

Do you follow me? If someone is speaking in say...the Spanish language/tongue, but there are no Spanish speaking people present in the room, what good is it for them to speak out loud in Spanish when not a single person present will understand?

Mind you, I'm just noting where your logic is faulty to my eyes. I'm not stating that tongues are or are not human languages.

You're right I didn't quote a post. I realized that once I read your reply. I am now quoting your post.

Tongues is not for speaking to men, it's for speaking to God. Prophesy is for speaking to men.

1 Co 14:2For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

Prophesy, tongues, and knowledge will pass away when love is made complete.

1 Co 13:8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

1 Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

1 Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Notice Paul say's know in part in both of these verses, he's talking about us knowing love. Love is God. We shall know Him fully even as we are fully known by Him. We come face to face with Him. When we are face to face with Him, Love, all these others things will pass away.

Paul has just finished writing 1 Co 13:1-7 which is about the importance of love, in v8 he concludes that everything else is inferior to love, he goes on to say in v9 and v10 that it's time for us to grow up in love (be mature), and now he's going to discuss what the gifts look like in regards to this. Because no matter how gifted we are if we have not love we are, have, and gain nothing.

1 Co 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

After all things are passed away, we will still have faith, hope, and love. But the greatest is love. Which brings us into 1 Co 14 the chapter on tongues and prophesy.

Paul concluded 1 Co 12 with this statement here:
1 Co 12:31But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

And he ends 1 Co 13 with the same idea, opening up 1 Co 14 with this:

1 Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

Paul has explained in 1 Co 13, that love is the more excellent way, but he says twice, we are to still earnestly desire spiritual gifts.

Some teach that we shouldn't pursue spiritual gifts, but love instead. Yet Scripture tells us to purse love AND earnestly desire spiritual gifts. People who teach otherwise are themselves against the written command of Scripture.

And just so Paul is clear he concludes 1 Co 14 with this statement here:

1 Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

If some one takes 1 Co 13:8 out of context to forbid speaking in tongues, and ignores 1 Co 14:2 that says tongues is for speaking to God not for people, well that person is teaching error against 1 Co 14:39 because they are simply uncomfortable with spiritual gifts. Because the Scripture is crystal clear on all of these matters. Love is the perfect. And He is a person. He is the more excellent way. So all things should be done with Him, Love, in mind. This is the correction Paul is writing about. Take care.

 

[Cee]

I disagree that Romans 8:26 is referring to tongues because it says that the spirit hears the unutterable sighings of the heart and intercedes accordingly. Tongues are uttered, i.e., spoken.

That word is also translated "inexpressible" similar to what Paul said when he was taken up to Heaven. The idea is that it's so deep, it's hard even impossible to put into words, also in 1 Co 14 Paul explains that prophesy is revealing the secrets of the heart, but and this is my experience tongues is heart to heart communion with God. It's not my mouth that is speaking, but my spirit. And while sometimes I have glimpses of what I'm saying, I usually don't, but afterwards I feel more aligned with Him. I praise Him in tongues when words don't do Him justice, I pray in tongues when I'm unsure how or what to pray. For those who desire it, I pray they will know the gift like I do. But I do agree with Paul that prophesy is the greatest because it builds others up.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I disagree that Romans 8:26 is referring to tongues because it says that the spirit hears the unutterable sighings of the heart and intercedes accordingly. Tongues are uttered, i.e., spoken.

Is that what it says? I'll have to go look up the verse. I rather came away with the idea that it was the Holy Spirit making intercession with groans too deep for words...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Tongues is not for speaking to men, it's for speaking to God. Prophesy is for speaking to men.

I can't quite wrap my mind around why God wants us to be speaking to Him without understanding what we're saying.... And this brings up a question in my mind. Is the word tongues at Pentecost the same word used for tongues elsewhere? Are they both the same greek word?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That word is also translated "inexpressible" similar to what Paul said when he was taken up to Heaven. The idea is that it's so deep, it's hard even impossible to put into words, also in 1 Co 14 Paul explains that prophesy is revealing the secrets of the heart, but and this is my experience tongues is heart to heart communion with God. It's not my mouth that is speaking, but my spirit. And while sometimes I have glimpses of what I'm saying, I usually don't, but afterwards I feel more aligned with Him. I praise Him in tongues when words don't do Him justice, I pray in tongues when I'm unsure how or what to pray. For those who desire it, I pray they will know the gift like I do. But I do agree with Paul that prophesy is the greatest because it builds others up.

I sort of experience this heart to heart communion without uttering words I don't understand...I don't utter any words at all at those times. I sometimes sigh a lot though...and if you asked me afterwards what went on, what I was thinking, what I was asking for, I wouldn't be able to say, although I was asking for much...it's odd to hear you describe so aptly with tongues what I experience without tongues...

 

[Cee]

I can't quite wrap my mind around why God wants us to be speaking to Him without understanding what we're saying.... And this brings up a question in my mind. Is the word tongues at Pentecost the same word used for tongues elsewhere? Are they both the same greek word?

They are same tongues is for praising God, in Acts 2 they were praising God and people were hearing their own languages. There is 2 miracles going on here. If you have 100+ people all speaking in different languages you wouldn't be able to make anything out. They were extolling the mighty deeds of God to Him and people were given the gift of being able to understand in their native languages. Tongues is to Him and prophesy is to the people according to 1 Co 14. When the Gentiles spoke in tongues we see the same thing, they are praising God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Is that what it says? I'll have to go look up the verse. I rather came away with the idea that it was the Holy Spirit making intercession with groans too deep for words...

You might have to look at the Greek. To me it reads the spirit intercedes regarding our unutterable sighings. To me that means sighings of our heart that we don't know how to pray about.

 

[Cee]

I sort of experience this heart to heart communion without uttering words I don't understand...I don't utter any words at all at those times. I sometimes sigh a lot though...and if you asked me afterwards what went on, what I was thinking, what I was asking for, I wouldn't be able to say, although I was asking for much...it's odd to hear you describe so aptly with tongues what I experience without tongues...

Yes it's not the mind, Paul says he prays with his spirit not with his mind. Your mind can think other things, read, etc. It's the Spirit speaking through you. For me tongues is a letting go, it feels like rivers of water pouring through me and I release the flood gates. It's not something I force it's something I release. It's more natural to me than speaking. It feels as if my spirit is always praying, but tongues is when I release my mouth to let it flow out.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Sorry, thats not true, he HS gives as he determines based on need, not everyone has all gifts.

Sorry but it is true at least it is true according to God: But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man (believer) to profit withal. (1 Cor. 12:7 [KJV])

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. (1 Cor. 12:7 [NIV]) v7 the subject changes from gifts to the "manifestation of the Spirit" . . . then the manifestation of the Spirit are listed. v8-10

 

[shrume]

They are same tongues is for praising God, in Acts 2 they were praising God and people were hearing their own languages. There is 2 miracles going on here. If you have 100+ people all speaking in different languages you wouldn't be able to make anything out. They were extolling the mighty deeds of God to Him and people were given the gift of being able to understand in their native languages. Tongues is to Him and prophesy is to the people according to 1 Co 14. When the Gentiles spoke in tongues we see the same thing, they are praising God.

Hello Cee,

I don't think that's true. Part of the miracle of Pentecost was that the languages the apostles were speaking to God were the native languages of many of the other people present. That still occurs sometimes today, although it's rare, which is why when tongues is spoken out loud in the church, it must be interpreted.