Oh goody another OSAS thread!
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Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life! 
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A changed nature leads to following Him. Our original design was to follow Him, but the lies of the enemy deceived us. But Christ sets us free and God's ways are best. God changes our heart and over time our behavior follows suit. There is a process of discipleship in this, which is why Paul kept writing letters to people who were saved wondering why they were struggling following Him.
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No, that is what I am not doing. What I am doing is to warn people about the danger of committing apostasy.
Now then think about it. If someone believes they are ALWAYS saved, they may think they can do as they like and still be saved. You do know I presume what the Bible teaches about departing from the path of righteousness?
Now then think about it. If someone believes they are ALWAYS saved, they may think they can do as they like and still be saved. You do know I presume what the Bible teaches about departing from the path of righteousness?
You are saying believers are not children of God. You call eternal security a "false cult". Ignoring plenty of Scriptures that disagree with you. Yes I know what it means to depart from the path of righteousness - that's why I'm replying to you. If you think the path of righteousness is your own works - wrong. God will complete what He starts - period. It's called faith and it alone pleases God.
So let me get this right, basically what you're saying is you want people to fear for their eternal security so they will continue and keep the faith in Jesus for their eternal security? And if people don't agree with you and your interpretations they are in a false cult. Hmm..
So let me get this right, basically what you're saying is you want people to fear for their eternal security so they will continue and keep the faith in Jesus for their eternal security? And if people don't agree with you and your interpretations they are in a false cult. Hmm..
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Believing is the first step and following Him is the next step. In reality the two go together and as a result people begin to see a change in our life as evidenced by our works. This is the outward indication of an inward change.
Suppose our life does not change due to those who teach that if we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ we are ALWAYS saved, what do you think their end will be?
Suppose our life does not change due to those who teach that if we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ we are ALWAYS saved, what do you think their end will be?
Grace is scandalous isn't it. This was exactly what Paul expected from people when he explained grace. Here's his answer:
Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
You asking that question means you have more to learn about grace. You think FEAR is what causes people to follow Jesus? It is love that causes people to follow Love. Why do you seek to neuter the power that set's men free?
Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
You asking that question means you have more to learn about grace. You think FEAR is what causes people to follow Jesus? It is love that causes people to follow Love. Why do you seek to neuter the power that set's men free?
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Grace is what God does for us. Paul knew all about grace, in fact you quote him, but do you think Paul sat back, thinking to himself, "Thanks to the grace of God I am always saved," and carried on as he always had done. Heaven forbid, his work for God had only just begun and while witnessing to unbelievers across the known world, he was encouraging believers to:-
press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Php 3:13-15 KJV)
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (1Co 9:24 KJV)
lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 12:1-2 KJV)
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1Co 9:24-27 KJV)
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
(Php 2:16 KJV)
press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Php 3:13-15 KJV)
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (1Co 9:24 KJV)
lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 12:1-2 KJV)
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1Co 9:24-27 KJV)
Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
(Php 2:16 KJV)
There's bad fear and there's good and essential fear.
Religion puts people under fear with condemnation and judgment as a matter of course in order to keep them from following the spirit and being free from its control.
One of the spirits of GOD is the fear of YHWH that if we follow keeps us from following a lifted up mind and a deceitful heart that can lead us astray from eternal life if we don't seek GOD's mercy.
Religion puts people under fear with condemnation and judgment as a matter of course in order to keep them from following the spirit and being free from its control.
One of the spirits of GOD is the fear of YHWH that if we follow keeps us from following a lifted up mind and a deceitful heart that can lead us astray from eternal life if we don't seek GOD's mercy.
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The fear of GOD is one of the holy spirits. Are you suggesting that we not follow it?
and the Spirit of God shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and godliness shall fill him; the spirit of the fear of God. He shall not judge according to appearance, nor reprove according to report: Isaiah 11:2-3
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You missed this one and I find it interesting that the term 'fall away' was used by Jesus Christ of His 11 disciples at the time He was being arrested. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to 'fall away'. (see Matthew 21:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation.
*Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
We also see in Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. hmm..
I've heard three different interpretations for this passage - lost salvation, never saved, hypothetical view.
In regards to the never saved view, see:
http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_64-5
http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_66
The hypothetical interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.
According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.
The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity. - https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html
*So your interpretation of believers actually losing their salvation is INCONCLUSIVE.
Of all that the Father has given to Jesus, how many did Jesus say He would cast out or lose? - John 6:37-39; 10:27-29.
How long will God preserve His saints? - Psalm 37:28.
How long will believers be sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit? - Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30.
Of all those who are justified, how many of them will be glorified? - Romans 8:28-30.
Who said these people were "saved" and "lost their salvation?" I've witnessed this for myself, in which "nominal" Christians leave a church that teaches sound doctrine, only to follow after teachers who tell them what their itching ears want to hear.
Obviously you believe they must have been true Christians for it says they were enlightened, tasted the word of God, and had partook of the Holy Spirit. But all these words can still be true the unsaved individual who has come to a knowledge of the truth, seen the power of the Holy Spirit, and felt the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit in their life. Judas Iscariot was an extreme example of this! He knew all there was to know been in the company of Jesus for three years. He had experienced the Holy Spirit’s power having been among the twelve sent out, two by two, to cast out demons and heal the sick. Yet he was never truly saved! Jesus own testimony about him confirms that he was not a true sheep that would be kept safe to the end. (John 17:11-12, John 13:18) but was a devil! (John 6:70). None of the key words for truly saved individuals such as ‘saving faith’, ‘eternal life’, ‘born again’, ‘redeemed by his blood’, ’saved’, ’salvation’ are used in this passage. In ‘Hebrews verse by verse’, William Newell quotes R.A Torrey on this passage saying ‘there is a quickening short of regeneration’. In other words, this passage speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit within the lives of these people that occurs before and leading up to salvation. But these people do not receive salvation, and openly rejecting it, they go back to the mud even if for a while they looked like the real thing.
So according to the never saved view, greater evidence of the fact that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that accompany SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about in verses 4-8 didn’t have salvation (and their open rejection testifies to this as well). But he has confidence in the beloved because they are saved! And this will show in their life through their perseverance.
To be continued..
*Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
We also see in Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. hmm..
I've heard three different interpretations for this passage - lost salvation, never saved, hypothetical view.
In regards to the never saved view, see:
http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_64-5
http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_66
The hypothetical interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.
According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.
The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity. - https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html
*So your interpretation of believers actually losing their salvation is INCONCLUSIVE.
Of all that the Father has given to Jesus, how many did Jesus say He would cast out or lose? - John 6:37-39; 10:27-29.
How long will God preserve His saints? - Psalm 37:28.
How long will believers be sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit? - Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30.
Of all those who are justified, how many of them will be glorified? - Romans 8:28-30.
Who said these people were "saved" and "lost their salvation?" I've witnessed this for myself, in which "nominal" Christians leave a church that teaches sound doctrine, only to follow after teachers who tell them what their itching ears want to hear.
Obviously you believe they must have been true Christians for it says they were enlightened, tasted the word of God, and had partook of the Holy Spirit. But all these words can still be true the unsaved individual who has come to a knowledge of the truth, seen the power of the Holy Spirit, and felt the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit in their life. Judas Iscariot was an extreme example of this! He knew all there was to know been in the company of Jesus for three years. He had experienced the Holy Spirit’s power having been among the twelve sent out, two by two, to cast out demons and heal the sick. Yet he was never truly saved! Jesus own testimony about him confirms that he was not a true sheep that would be kept safe to the end. (John 17:11-12, John 13:18) but was a devil! (John 6:70). None of the key words for truly saved individuals such as ‘saving faith’, ‘eternal life’, ‘born again’, ‘redeemed by his blood’, ’saved’, ’salvation’ are used in this passage. In ‘Hebrews verse by verse’, William Newell quotes R.A Torrey on this passage saying ‘there is a quickening short of regeneration’. In other words, this passage speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit within the lives of these people that occurs before and leading up to salvation. But these people do not receive salvation, and openly rejecting it, they go back to the mud even if for a while they looked like the real thing.
So according to the never saved view, greater evidence of the fact that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that accompany SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about in verses 4-8 didn’t have salvation (and their open rejection testifies to this as well). But he has confidence in the beloved because they are saved! And this will show in their life through their perseverance.
To be continued..
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You are pulling Scriptures out of context again, but in answer to your question, no Paul didn't think that because the goal isn't to be saved. Wrong mindset. It is to KNOW GOD. Paul did know he was always saved, but that didn't lead him to carry on like always because he was dead to those former ways. Do you want to go off and sin? I don't. And I believe I could if I wanted to, but I have no desire to do it. I'm overcome by God's goodness and His kindness. His ways are far better than mine.
I'll quote Romans 6 some more.
Do you believe this Scripture? Romans 6:17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
This sums it up, I couldn't have said it any better.
I'll quote Romans 6 some more.
Do you believe this Scripture? Romans 6:17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
This sums it up, I couldn't have said it any better.
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