Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
You don't think repentance and faith are works?

NOT AT ALL , NO ONE CAN COME EXCEPT FOR THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. It is NOT A WORK OF THE INDIVIDUAL. IT IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.


John 6:44 (CSBBible)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 (CSBBible)
65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3 (CSBBible)
3 Therefore I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," {with Genuine, Truthful MEANING} except by the Holy Spirit.


SEE IT? It is a WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, NOT SELF.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
third strawman ben
youre on a roll
3 for 3

the cerimony of water baptism is not silly in itself <- your strawman suggestest that is what i implied

it's silly that you add requirements in the form of works to Gods free gift


just like it's silly when He promises His gift to us is eternal life

you think He takes it away based on works


this would make it not grace
nor gift
nor eternal


from how i see your false understanding

Gods "offer" (not gift) would be more like "and you are saved by deeds and wisdom if you learn enough of my standards ... not of grace lest any man have complete assurance and i promise to you i will eventually decide if i want to bestow upon you eternal life... so long as you do enough constantly you will still have access to this deal... but you do not recieve any of your share for this deal until much later if i feel you did enough for me"
When you say silly addition, that is not an implication, that is a direct assault on the cerimony of baptism. Not a strawman either.

I did not read that the apostles, who heard Jesus state his last words to go into the world and teach and baptize, argued with the Lord that since baptism is not necessary for salvation, why in the heck do we have to do it. Jesus, do you know the pain in the back it is to go and baptize all these thousands of people we are going to convert. Do you remember that exchange in the bible. No you don't.

The word was teach all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and tof the HS.

You on the other hand would say, let us go and teach all nations and if they want to be baptized, let that happen, but if they do not, it is OK, for it is not necessary for salvation even though Jesus was baptized himself and told us to teach all nations and baptize them. We know better and will give all people the choice whether they will be baptized or not. There, I feel better now, we are not adding silly little cerimonies to the baptism of the HS. Hope you are right, you may have to defend yourself when you meet up with Jesus, and it will not be like arguing with me.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Acts 6:5-6
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.

The biblical term "proselyte" is an anglicization of the Koine Greek term προσήλυτος (proselytos), as used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) for "stranger", i.e. a "newcomer to Israel";[1] a "sojourner in the land",[2] and in the Greek New Testament[3] for a first century convert to Judaism, generally from Ancient Greek religion. It is a translation of the Biblical Hebrew phrase גר תושב (ger toshav).[4] (Wikipedia)

2:6 Even if the Ephesian church did not love as it should have (v. 4), at least the Lord could positively say, you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The Nicolaitans were a heretical group that troubled the churches at Ephesus and Pergamos (v. 15). Apparently their teaching and practice were immoral, perhaps even idolatrous (v. 14). Some church fathers connected this sect with Nicolas, one of the seven elected leaders in the Jerusalem church (Bible study notes)

1 John 2:19-20
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

2:19 When the false teachers went out from among the believers, they revealed that they did not belong to the Christian community; they were never true believers. they … us: In the opening verses of this book, John made a distinction between we and you (1:1, 3). We, the apostles, were the eyewitnesses of Christ, you were the readers. That same distinction is probably maintained here (see also v. 20). Thus when John says these false teachers were not of us, he means they did not agree with the teaching of the apostles. These antichrists had departed from the apostolic churches, and their attitudes and actions were not of the apostolic persuasion. If they had been in harmony with the apostles, they would have remained in fellowship with them (1:1–3).
Bible study notes.

Given the above I reckon Nicolas was never a true believer to begin with.
Maybe a conversation to Judaism but not Christianity.

But also possibly out to gain (my assumption) just like Simon the scorcrer.

It's interesting that only he is referred to as proselyte.
I'm not aware of the other 6 being mentioned in revelations.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I am done with this discussion on Nicolas.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
113
2Ti 2:12 GNB
If we continue to endure, we shall also rule with him. If we deny him,
he also will deny us.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
When you say silly addition, that is not an implication, that is a direct assault on the cerimony of baptism. Not a strawman either.
no im directly attacking your false gospel



I did not read that the apostles, who heard Jesus state his last words to go into the world and teach and baptize, argued with the Lord that since baptism is not necessary for salvation, why in the heck do we have to do it.
His last words were "It is finished.." and "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit"
it is you who pushes this is required for salvation not Him


I am not Jesus

do you know the pain in the back it is to go and baptize all these thousands of people we are going to convert.
ok?
and you think a pain in the back saves?

Do you remember that exchange in the bible. No you don't.
what exchange are you talking about before you impute or remove my memories

The word was teach all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and tof the HS.
again.... no point to what youre sayin?
Jesus commanded many things
now are you suggested we are saved according to how well we do these things? but never for sure until it happens?


You on the other hand would say, let us go and teach all nations and if they want to be baptized, let that happen, but if they do not, it is OK, for it is not necessary for salvation even though Jesus was baptized himself and told us to teach all nations and baptize them.
i wouldnt say that
you just think i would


We know better and will give all people the choice whether they will be baptized or not.
lol of course
wouldnt the alternative be drowning someone?

you should never dip someone in water against that persons will



There, I feel better now, we are not adding silly little cerimonies to the baptism of the HS.
no WE arent

you are

baptism of the Holy spirit doesnt require being dipped in water

this was just a cerimony ....

Hope you are right, you may have to defend yourself when you meet up with Jesus, and it will not be like arguing with me.


ben
im right

the bible is clear

praise God for working in me to rightly divide and not pervert His gospel like some here do[/QUOTE]
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Christ was baptized as an example. Baptism is not, however, part of the salvation process. Only the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit, after confession and acceptance, are involved in that saving grace.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
How evil is it to be water baptized? You use the word 'evil' as if I were sacrificing a chicken before I am water baptized and being baptized in the name of satan.

The bible is very clear that Jesus wants us to be water baptized. So stop with the 'evil' business.
There is the proof, that You do not have the Holy Spirit in you YET, or you would have understood me.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


Here is what I said means: Because you want to believe everyone who is Baptized is a real CHRISTIAN, you are forced to believe the EVIL that those YOU THINK those who fell away, lost their Salvation, despite the promises of GOD. The evil, is YOUR so-called THEOLOGY, which is contradicting what JESUS SAID, and therefore it is calling JESUS a LIAR. Those who were NOT SAVED (BORN AGAIN) prior to climbing into a Baptistery, went in the water as dry sinners and came out as wet sinners, and THEY NEVER EVER WERE GENUINE CHRISTIANS. The Immersion that SAVES is the Holy Spirit immerses us INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST FIRST, then and only then, we can follow HIM into the waters of Baptism as one of our first steps of our CHRISTIAN WALK with Christ.


1 John 2:6 (NIV)
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

John 14:23-26 (NCV)
23 Jesus answered, “If people love me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
24 Those who do not love me do not obey my teaching. This teaching that you hear is not really mine; it is from my Father, who sent me.
25 “I have told you all these things while I am with you.
26 But the Helper will teach you everything and will cause you to remember all that I told you. This Helper is the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name.


John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all.
No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be
made clear that none of them belongs to us.


1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
12 For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many,
are one body—so also is Christ.
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
John 15:16-17
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

You?
He was talking to his 12 specially chosen disciples to be apostles. Not to you or I?

He ask them to follow him, they CHOSE to do that. Peter for instance immediately put down his nets and went with the Savior. Mattthew left his tax table and went with the Savior. But they chose to do that, unless you think that Jesus has some kind of mind-bending abilities to make men do as he wants them to do. They chose to follow Jesus. Just like you have chosen to follow Jesus.

Later on, when it was time to ordain them to be apostles, he did say that he had chosen them to be his apostles. There were many disciples, but only 12 were CHOSEN to be his apostles. This does not mean that everyone is chosen by Jesus to be saved. If that is the case then we have to say that others were chosen for an eternity in hell. Not what Jesus does.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
There is the proof, that You do not have the Holy Spirit in you YET, or you would have understood me.

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (NIV)
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


Here is what I said means: Because you want to believe everyone who is Baptized is a real CHRISTIAN, you are forced to believe the EVIL that those YOU THINK those who fell away, lost their Salvation, despite the promises of GOD. The evil, is YOUR so-called THEOLOGY, which is contradicting what JESUS SAID, and therefore it is calling JESUS a LIAR. Those who were NOT SAVED (BORN AGAIN) prior to climbing into a Baptistery, went in the water as dry sinners and came out as wet sinners, and THEY NEVER EVER WERE GENUINE CHRISTIANS. The Immersion that SAVES is the Holy Spirit immerses us INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST FIRST, then and only then, we can follow HIM into the waters of Baptism as one of our first steps of our CHRISTIAN WALK with Christ.


1 John 2:6 (NIV)
6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

John 14:23-26 (NCV)
23 Jesus answered, “If people love me, they will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
24 Those who do not love me do not obey my teaching. This teaching that you hear is not really mine; it is from my Father, who sent me.
25 “I have told you all these things while I am with you.
26 But the Helper will teach you everything and will cause you to remember all that I told you. This Helper is the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name.


John 10:26-30 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever!
No one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all.
No one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 The Father and I are one.”


2 John 1:2 (HCSB)
2 because of the truth that remains in us and will be with us forever.

1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us,
they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be
made clear that none of them belongs to us.


1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
12 For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many,
are one body—so also is Christ.
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body
whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
So that is the proof. I don't believe 100% of what you believe, therefore that is proof that I have not been baptized with the Holy Spirit. Is that arrogant or is it humility?

Really, are you kidding? If I believed 100% of what you believe, then it is proof that I have had the baptism of the spirit. It is certainly not humility, it is a boastful arrogance that you and you alone know when a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit.

You condemn 90% of Christians of not having the baptism of the spirit. Hope your little band is humble about their salvation, because you are not, and I do not appreciate your little proofs about the Holy Spirit.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Christ was baptized as an example. Baptism is not, however, part of the salvation process. Only the power and the seal of the Holy Spirit, after confession and acceptance, are involved in that saving grace.
Prove that statement from the scriptues. Thank you. Where does it say that baptism is not necessary to be saved?
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Tosh pure tosh.
You said he was a branch, if he is a branch he is attached to the vine.

If a branch withers it's not because they are not getting nutrition from the vine it's because they are not in the vine, therefore not a branch

Judas was not a believer and was never in the vine.
Neither are those who pay lip service and come across as believers
What do you think mouth to ear contact with Jesus is? Judas received all the instructions of Jesus, saw all of his miracles, witnesses all he did. He saw and heard it all. He was certainly, metaphorically, a branch. But since he finally did not believe, he was cast off.

This is my final statment to you about the vine and Judas.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,025
4,444
113
What do you think mouth to ear contact with Jesus is? Judas received all the instructions of Jesus, saw all of his miracles, witnesses all he did. He saw and heard it all. He was certainly, metaphorically, a branch. But since he finally did not believe, he was cast off.

This is my final statment to you about the vine and Judas.
Make it your final post to me full stop.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Do not deflect, you are good at doing that.
You answer questions with another question but never answer the question.

Is it ok to eat food sacrificed to idols?

Peter thought not and sent those chosen by God to tell the gentiles not to do it.
Yet then we find Paul saying "Its not an issue if it's ok for you, but if causes a weaker brother a problem then do not do it in front of them@
Please, sometimes I answer a question with a question. Sometimes I answer the question outright. Go back and read by posts, especially to you, I answer your questions most of the time outright.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
Prove that statement from the scriptues. Thank you. Where does it say that baptism is not necessary to be saved?
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(baptized by one spirit not one bathtub)

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence
(water baptism just a physical cerimony not the spiritual rebirth... these are two separate things)

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(into Christ as in become a member of the body of Christ through the baptism of the spirit)


i could go on to how Jesus makes this clear as day to anyone who can see the truth in john 3

but you rejected the truth there now the maybe 7 times i have shown you already
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Make it your final post to me full stop.
I do not want to full stop you. When I feel like I have said enough about a subject, I will let you know and I will not talk of it more.

If that is not OK with you, then just do not respond to my posts, and it solves both our problems.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(baptized by one spirit not one bathtub)

Acts 1:5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence
(water baptism just a physical cerimony not the spiritual rebirth... these are two separate things)

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(into Christ as in become a member of the body of Christ through the baptism of the spirit)


i could go on to how Jesus makes this clear as day to anyone who can see the truth in john 3

but you rejected the truth there now the maybe 7 times i have shown you already
You had to add your interpretation to the 1 Cor. scripture, why?

Again, you had to editorialize Acts 1:5, why?

Again, you had to editorialize/interpret Gal. 3:27, why?

It is because it is not clear when the word baptism is used if it only refers to the baptism of the spriit.

Besides none of those scriptures say, that water baptism is not necessar for eternal life. Show me a scripture that says that.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
You had to add your interpretation to the 1 Cor. scripture, why?

Again, you had to editorialize Acts 1:5, why?

Again, you had to editorialize/interpret Gal. 3:27, why?

It is because it is not clear when the word baptism is used if it only refers to the baptism of the spriit.

Besides none of those scriptures say, that water baptism is not necessar for eternal life. Show me a scripture that says that.

well you dont understand the scriptures or rightly divide

i know this because the false gospel you push which attempts to pervert Gods character as well as steal His glory and give it to men


here is a verse i hope you understand without me trying to explain it to you in loving correction

john 3
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


(i hope you know what whosoever means..... what believeth means..... and what not perish means... and what eternal life means... and who "Him" is)
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Judas did not kill Jesus.
Nicolas was never a troublemaker in the church . Acts 6:5

I do not know why you are in this community however, it is clear it is not to discuss the true Bible nor respect the faith that you present falsehoods about.

You should be removed for the sake of all. Because pretending to be, while proving you know nothing about the Bible or our faith, is abomination.
Goodbye.
Judas obviously did not actually kill Jesus. I just read the bible again, and I apologize for getting that wrong. But it is through Judas's treachery that Jesus was captured and killed by the Romans (wow I didn't know that until you pointed that out to me, so thank you).

What we know about Nicolas is not from the scriptures because it only mentions his name, but traditions say that the Nicolaitans were a group that took their name from Nicolas, one of the 7 Deacons. So if this is true, then Nicolas was a trouble maker in the church and was probably excommunicated for preaching false doctrine.

Why am I in a community of Christians. Because I am a Christian, does that makes sense to you?

But I do not believe that ES or OSAS is a correct doctrine so that puts me against the majority of persons on this thread, and probably you too. I should not be against you on this subject matter however. So read my post and please allow me to stay on the thread, even though I don't believe 100% of what you believe.