A place for rapture questions

Wall · Jun 16, 2018

I guess another good question for the Rapturist is why the last trumpet aint really the last trumpet

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

So why do you Rapturist claim the last trumpet aint really the last trumpet

Nehemiah6 · Jun 16, 2018

Wall said:

The answer is really quite simple. The last trumpet for the saints HAS ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION to the last trumpet for the wicked. Two separate groups with two totally unrelated trumpets.

tanakh · Jun 16, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

I'm amazed at the lack of comprehension of those who read my posts. I did not say anything about fearing God's wrath. What I did say is that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

In your previous post, you made 1 Thes.4:16-18 synonymous with Zephaniah 1, which I said are two different events with 1 Thes. being about the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath and Zephaniah being about God's wrath. In your previous post you made the gathering of the church and the time period of God's wrath as being the same and that because of the words "clouds" and "trumpet."

Well sorry, but below is that scripture that says we are going to heaven:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

Jesus made the above promise to His disciples and to all believers. He says that there are many rooms in His Father's house and that He was going to prepare places for us which can only be referring to heaven. Then He says that He is going to come back to take us to the Father's house to the places that He prepared for us, which again would be in the Father's house in heaven.

You people just continue to repeat the same popular false apologetics over and over again.

First of all, the scripture above is referring to His disciples that they should not be taken out of the world at that particular time. It does not mean that believers would never be taken out of the world. After all, the disciples needed to remain on the earth to preach the gospel, which is why they are not being removed at that time. But according to other scripture, once the church is completed, then the Lord will appear and gather the church, taking us back to the Father's house and that prior to His wrath

In regards to John 17:14, Jesus also said the following:

"Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked. Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”

So, in the scripture above, Jesus is telling His disciples that He is going back to the Father and that they cannot at that time follow Him, but they will follow later. And since we know that Jesus ascended to the right hand of God in heaven, that when He comes for us, He will be taking us back to where He went, which is the Father's house.

Just by your saying that we will be protected demonstrates that you do not understand the severity and magnitude of the God's coming wrath. It is not going to be a picnic! During that time the majority of the inhabitants will be decimated and all human government dismantled. For you to make the claim above, you obviously have not studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments or you would be saying that believers will be protected during the time of God's wrath.

Furthermore, the church is never mention within chapters 6 thru 18, which is the narrative of God's wrath. The word "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from use after the end of chapter 3.

How is it that you people who no nothing about end-time events are always debating with those who have studied it? The "day of the Lord" is the tribulation period! The "Day of the Lord" is the time period of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The book of Revelation, for the most part, is a detailed account of the "Day of the Lord."

* You are here

* The Lord descends and the church is gathered and taken back to heaven

Wrath of God begins

* Antichrist makes his seven year covenant, which is depicted by the first seal, which initiates God's time of wrath

* In the middle of the seven the antichrist sets up the abomination, proclaiming himself to be God

* Antichrist/Beast makes war against the great tribulation saints and conquers them during that last 3 1/2 years

* At the end of that last 3 1/2 years Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

* The beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ

* The thousand year reign of Christ, a time of peace

* Satan released at the end of the thousand years and has one last rellion

* Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown

* Great white throne judgment of all the unrighteous dead throughout all history

* New Heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem

If believers were here on the earth when God destroys the wicked, they would also be destroyed with them and God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Again, because you believe the above, you have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. For example:

At the opening of the 4th seal the result is a fourth of the earths population is killed, which based on our current population would equal approx. 1.7 billion fatalities.

At the sounding of the 1st trumpet, a third of the earth and trees are burned up. You can't have a third of the earth burned up without there being many people being affected and there being many fatalities.

At the sounding of the 2nd trumpet an object hits in one of the oceans the result being all of the ships in that body of water being destroyed and all of creatures in that body of water being killed, equaling a third over all the earth. How many people on those ships? Would any of them be believers in Christ? The ships are will be destroyed because of the giant waves that will be created by that object hitting in the ocean. Because of that, all of the cities on every shore that that body of water touches, towns and villages exposed to that body of water will be destroyed and all the people in them. Would there be any believers in those cities?

At the sounding of the 3rd trumpet a third of the rivers and fresh water is contaminated, so that many people die from drinking the water. Will there be any believers drinking that water?

At the 4th bowl judgment, the angel pours out his bowl on the sun causing it to scorch people with intense heat. Since everyone on the earth is exposed to the sun, how would believers be protected from this plague of wrath?

I have listed just a couple of the plagues of wrath to show you how ridiculous it is to think that the church would be here during the time of God's wrath. Now, instead of looking for some weak apologetics regarding what I just shared with you, why don't you take the information to heart and look into it instead of protecting the false teachings that you have adopted.

We are not appointed to suffer wrath but where in the passage does it say that we are whipped away in the sky to achieve it?
God is quite capable of protecting his own without using secret raptures. He did it with Noah, Lot, the Israelite's in Egypt and
Rahab in Jericho. Also Peter said the following in Acts...

And he shall send Jesus Christ which before was preached unto you
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the
world began

Acts :20-21 KJV

When do you think is the restoration of all things? Before the start of the tribulation or after?
Before the second coming or after?
Peter clearly states that Christ will remain in heaven until that restoration happens so how does
that square with the notion that he comes back secretly to resurrect the dead and rapture the living
seven years before the said restoration happens. According to my calculation that means his second coming
would actually be his third. It also makes Peter a liar because he clearly states that Christ remains in heaven

Also the much quoted statements of Paul regarding the rapture make no mention of WHEN it happens
with regard to the tribulation. Only that it will happen when Christ returns.

Nehemiah6 · Jun 16, 2018

tanakh said:

As Jesus would say "Have ye not read...?"
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now you can either accept that as God's truth or reject it because it does not suit your theology. But it is right there in Scripture for all to see, ever since about 51-52 AD.

Noose · Jun 16, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

It is there for all to see but for those who see and know wouldn't conclude a secret rapture before the end from that. It is a self defeating position in two ways:

1. That verse doesn't allude to a time before the great tribulation
2. The last part of the verse disagrees with you position- They will be with the Lord forever.
We don't see these guyz being with the Lord during millennial rule, we see the tribulation saints only. It confirms that what Paul was talking about was the very end.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

tanakh · Jun 16, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Your quotation is predictably out of context. Firstly who are we to meet in the air? According to Paul its those who had fallen asleep,(died) who Christ brings with him at the second coming. Meeting the Lord and them in the air and forever being with the Lord does not specify that we are going to be taken to heaven for seven years, or three and a half as some believe. What passes as Gods truth to you and others is your interpretation imposed on text There is a term for the practice Its called Eisegesis. Its a common practice used by cults.

I quoted Peter in Acts. He made a plain statement about Jesus remaining in heaven You have provided no answer to my questions. Probably because it doesn't suit your '' theology ''

Ahwatukee · Jun 16, 2018

tanakh said:

This is the promise:
'My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

* The Father's house is Heaven

* Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for us

* He's coming back to take us to be with him that we may also be where He is, in the Father's house

Below is the event when He comes to get the church:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Therefore, since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the above event must take place prior to said wrath. It is always a matter of cross-referencing and comparing scripture in order to arrive a right conclusion. In this case it is just a simple deduction:

God's wrath is coming = church is not appointed suffer wrath = church must be remove prior to said wrath

Well, for one thing, Noah had to remain on the earth, because he and his family had to repopulate it. The promise to be caught up from the earth is to the church not to Noah, Lot, nor to Israel. The important lesson to take away from all of those mentioned, is that God protected them. He just does it differently with the church, because His wrath will be world-wide. Paul called the event of the living church being changed and caught up a mystery. Therefore, though the resurrection was known to the OT prophets, it was to Paul that the information of the living church being changed and caught up was revealed. The reason that the church will be removed prior to God's wrath is for one, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. And two, the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath is going to decimate the majority of the earths population via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And three, because God's word says that we as believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and He said that He would keep us out of that time of wrath.

As I continue to tell you tanakh, if you would do a detailed study on the seals, trumpets and bowls, you would understand the severity of them and understand that even if God protected us while on the earth, it would not be a place that we could continue to live in. The following is what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are accomplish:

"I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth, declares the LORD. I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, and the ruins along with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,”

"Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened when it rises,
and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant and humiliate the pride of tyrants.

I will make man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind rarer than the gold of Ophir

The above is supported by what Jesus said regarding time of God's wrath:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."

According to Jesus, those days of wrath will be the worst that the earth has ever seen in any time of history. And that if they were they were allowed to go on any longer no one would be left alive on the earth. By the time Jesus returns, the cities of all the nations will have collapsed as a result of that greatest earthquake via the 7th bowl, the islands and mountains will be gone, the oceans and fresh water will all be turned into literal blood and there will only be 10% or less of the earths population left, if even that much.

The event of the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are two separate events. When reading scripture, one needs to be able to discern which event is being spoken about. Obviously, the scripture that you provided above is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Where at the gathering of the church, Jesus is not returning to the earth, but to resurrect the dead and to change and call up the living to remove us prior to God's wrath. Two different events with different purposes.

Again, when the church is gathered the Lord is not returning to the earth, but is descending to the atmosphere to gather His church to meet Him in the air. Where at which time He will take the entire church back to the Father's house. You are being to rigid in that because of that scripture that you cite, that the Lord isn't able to leave His seat. As I said and as scripture supports, the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord return to the earth to end the age.

The return of Christ for the church has always been imminent, i.e. about to happen, looming, on the horizon, etc. Jesus described His return for the church as being like a thief in the night and therefore to always be watching and ready. Because the Lord's return was imminent, they were motivated to spread the gospel. If Jesus would have said to His disciples "Relax guy's because I'm not coming to get you for another 2000 years," then there would have been no urgency to spread the gospel.

Always keep in mind that, the Lord is not physically returning to the earth when He gathers the church, as 1 Thes.4:16 states that we will descend to the air and call us up. And John 14:1-3 says that He is going to take us back to the Father's house. Therefore, you have Jesus appearing the first time in the flesh to live a perfect life, paying the penalty for our sins. Then, after God's wrath has been poured out at the end of that seven years, Jesus will return again physically and visually to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. That would equal 2 times, with the gathering of the church being a completely separate event.

Wall · Jun 16, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

2 LAST trumpets. Shouldnt surprise me. Comin from those that claim friday afternoon till sunday mornin equals 3 days AND 3 nights. YIKES! Was B Clinton a rapturist?

tanakh · Jun 16, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

This is the promise:
'My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

* The Father's house is Heaven

* Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare places for us

* He's coming back to take us to be with him that we may also be where He is, in the Father's house

Below is the event when He comes to get the church:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Therefore, since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the above event must take place prior to said wrath. It is always a matter of cross-referencing and comparing scripture in order to arrive a right conclusion. In this case it is just a simple deduction:

God's wrath is coming = church is not appointed suffer wrath = church must be remove prior to said wrath

Well, for one thing, Noah had to remain on the earth, because he and his family had to repopulate it. The promise to be caught up from the earth is to the church not to Noah, Lot, nor to Israel. The important lesson to take away from all of those mentioned, is that God protected them. He just does it differently with the church, because His wrath will be world-wide. Paul called the event of the living church being changed and caught up a mystery. Therefore, though the resurrection was known to the OT prophets, it was to Paul that the information of the living church being changed and caught up was revealed. The reason that the church will be removed prior to God's wrath is for one, Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer. And two, the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath is going to decimate the majority of the earths population via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And three, because God's word says that we as believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and He said that He would keep us out of that time of wrath.

As I continue to tell you tanakh, if you would do a detailed study on the seals, trumpets and bowls, you would understand the severity of them and understand that even if God protected us while on the earth, it would not be a place that we could continue to live in. The following is what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are accomplish:

"I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth, declares the LORD. I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, and the ruins along with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,”

"Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened when it rises,
and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant and humiliate the pride of tyrants.

I will make man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind rarer than the gold of Ophir

The above is supported by what Jesus said regarding time of God's wrath:

"For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened."

According to Jesus, those days of wrath will be the worst that the earth has ever seen in any time of history. And that if they were they were allowed to go on any longer no one would be left alive on the earth. By the time Jesus returns, the cities of all the nations will have collapsed as a result of that greatest earthquake via the 7th bowl, the islands and mountains will be gone, the oceans and fresh water will all be turned into literal blood and there will only be 10% or less of the earths population left, if even that much.

The event of the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth are two separate events. When reading scripture, one needs to be able to discern which event is being spoken about. Obviously, the scripture that you provided above is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Where at the gathering of the church, Jesus is not returning to the earth, but to resurrect the dead and to change and call up the living to remove us prior to God's wrath. Two different events with different purposes.

Again, when the church is gathered the Lord is not returning to the earth, but is descending to the atmosphere to gather His church to meet Him in the air. Where at which time He will take the entire church back to the Father's house. You are being to rigid in that because of that scripture that you cite, that the Lord isn't able to leave His seat. As I said and as scripture supports, the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord return to the earth to end the age.

The return of Christ for the church has always been imminent, i.e. about to happen, looming, on the horizon, etc. Jesus described His return for the church as being like a thief in the night and therefore to always be watching and ready. Because the Lord's return was imminent, they were motivated to spread the gospel. If Jesus would have said to His disciples "Relax guy's because I'm not coming to get you for another 2000 years," then there would have been no urgency to spread the gospel.

Always keep in mind that, the Lord is not physically returning to the earth when He gathers the church, as 1 Thes.4:16 states that we will descend to the air and call us up. And John 14:1-3 says that He is going to take us back to the Father's house. Therefore, you have Jesus appearing the first time in the flesh to live a perfect life, paying the penalty for our sins. Then, after God's wrath has been poured out at the end of that seven years, Jesus will return again physically and visually to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. That would equal 2 times, with the gathering of the church being a completely separate event.

Meeting the lord in the air describes what is to happen at his second coming we meet him in the air and accompany him on his decent to earth at the Mount of Olives in the way that dignitaries were met outside a city and were escorted by representatives of
that city. You say I am being 'rigid' in my reading of the scripture. All I am quoting is the plain statement as made by Peter and recorded through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Its not a case of Christ not being able to leave his seat its a case of him not intending to.

The gathering of the Church is only a completely separate event for you and others who follow this line of thinking. For the past 2000
years the vast majority of Christians have read the Bible and have believed in one second coming and most people still do. What you
maintain in fact is that not only were they all wrong but that God allowed them to spread an erroneous message regarding the events surrounding the last days and Christs second coming apart from a privileged chosen few.

Ahwatukee · Jun 16, 2018

tanakh said:

As I continue to try to get you to understand and which you continue to ignore, if the church was to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming, then it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God! Why do you continue to forget this. We cannot go through the wrath of God. And since the wrath of God must take place prior to the second coming, then the living church must be removed prior to said wrath. Now, you're going to say "God is going to protect the church during His wrath." And I'm going to say, one, Jesus said that He would keep us out of it, not through it. I'm also going to reiterated that, you have no understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath. And around and around we go! And the reason why we go around and around, is because you seem to forget or ignore these facts that I continue to make known to you. As I said, by the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age (second coming) the oceans and fresh water will have all been turned into literal blood. And the cities of the nations will have all collapsed and there will only be 10% or less of the population left on the earth. The Lord is not going to protect His church in the midst of all this, but is rather going to keep His promise to remove us. Pay attention to the following tanakh!

"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” - Rev.19:6-8

As Revelation 19:6-8 reveals, the wedding of the Lamb is taking place in heaven. The bride is the church, which again is already seen as being in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then, in Revelation 19:14, we see the armies of heaven following Christ out of heaven riding white horses and wearing that same fine linen making that army the bride/church. This demonstrates that the bride/church is already in heaven during the time of God's wrath and will be returning with Him to end the age. Since the bride/church is already in heaven and following the Lord out of heaven, how then can you say that the church will be caught up when Jesus returns, when in fact we are following behind Him as He descends to the earth? In support of the church being in heaven and returning with Christ out of heaven, we also have Rev.17:14 which says:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

No tanakh! We understand the event of Jesus coming to gather His church vs. His returning to the earth to end the age as being two separate events because of proper exegesis and logical scriptural deduction. For example (and don't just brush over the following scriptures, but actually read them).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then the church must be removed prior to said wrath. It's proper exegesis and a simple deduction. The "hour of trial" that the Lord will keep us out of, is another designation referring to the time of His wrath. He uses the word "ek" which means "out of" i.e. He will keep us out of the time of His wrath.

You are correct, they did believe in the second coming, but they also believed in the other event of the gathering of the church, which are not believing. I reiterate, at the gathering of the church Jesus does not return to the earth. In addition, the event of I Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 cannot take place at the second coming because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. There is no way to scripturally get around that.

I'm afraid that the only way that you are going believe is when you see it happen.

* You are here

* The Lord descends and gathers the church, taking them back to the Father's house

* Antichrist is revealed initiating that last seven years (wrath of God begins)

* God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation during that seven years

* Jesus returns at the end of the seven years with the bride/church following behind Him riding on white horses

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* All of those gathered at Armageddon are killed by the double-edged sword with the birds eating their flesh

* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign

* Jesus feet touch upon the mount of Olives, splitting it in two

* Judgment of the sheep and the goats

* Some time after Jesus returns, the great tribulation saints will be resurrected who will reign a thousand years

Noose · Jun 17, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

As I continue to try to get you to understand and which you continue to ignore, if the church was to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming, then it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God! Why do you continue to forget this. We cannot go through the wrath of God. And since the wrath of God must take place prior to the second coming, then the living church must be removed prior to said wrath. Now, you're going to say "God is going to protect the church during His wrath." And I'm going to say, one, Jesus said that He would keep us out of it, not through it. I'm also going to reiterated that, you have no understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath. And around and around we go! And the reason why we go around and around, is because you seem to forget or ignore these facts that I continue to make known to you. As I said, by the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age (second coming) the oceans and fresh water will have all been turned into literal blood. And the cities of the nations will have all collapsed and there will only be 10% or less of the population left on the earth. The Lord is not going to protect His church in the midst of all this, but is rather going to keep His promise to remove us. Pay attention to the following tanakh!

"Hallelujah!
For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” - Rev.19:6-8

As Revelation 19:6-8 reveals, the wedding of the Lamb is taking place in heaven. The bride is the church, which again is already seen as being in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then, in Revelation 19:14, we see the armies of heaven following Christ out of heaven riding white horses and wearing that same fine linen making that army the bride/church. This demonstrates that the bride/church is already in heaven during the time of God's wrath and will be returning with Him to end the age. Since the bride/church is already in heaven and following the Lord out of heaven, how then can you say that the church will be caught up when Jesus returns, when in fact we are following behind Him as He descends to the earth? In support of the church being in heaven and returning with Christ out of heaven, we also have Rev.17:14 which says:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

No tanakh! We understand the event of Jesus coming to gather His church vs. His returning to the earth to end the age as being two separate events because of proper exegesis and logical scriptural deduction. For example (and don't just brush over the following scriptures, but actually read them).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then the church must be removed prior to said wrath. It's proper exegesis and a simple deduction. The "hour of trial" that the Lord will keep us out of, is another designation referring to the time of His wrath. He uses the word "ek" which means "out of" i.e. He will keep us out of the time of His wrath.

You are correct, they did believe in the second coming, but they also believed in the other event of the gathering of the church, which are not believing. I reiterate, at the gathering of the church Jesus does not return to the earth. In addition, the event of I Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 cannot take place at the second coming because it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. There is no way to scripturally get around that.

I'm afraid that the only way that you are going believe is when you see it happen.

* You are here

* The Lord descends and gathers the church, taking them back to the Father's house

* Antichrist is revealed initiating that last seven years (wrath of God begins)

* God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation during that seven years

* Jesus returns at the end of the seven years with the bride/church following behind Him riding on white horses

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* All of those gathered at Armageddon are killed by the double-edged sword with the birds eating their flesh

* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss during Christ's thousand year reign

* Jesus feet touch upon the mount of Olives, splitting it in two

* Judgment of the sheep and the goats

* Some time after Jesus returns, the great tribulation saints will be resurrected who will reign a thousand years

This is fake news at best.
Here is the scenario at the end of age:

Matt 24:36“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,f but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

In other words, things will be as normal as we see them now. People can not marry and be given to marriage if rivers are flowing blood and no one will be drinking . eating and making merry when 90% of the population is swept away.
This are the consequences of taking a literal stand of the scriptures.

The great tribulation as described in Rev 6 is nothing more than death by: sword (wars), pestilences (diseases), famine (natural disasters), beasts f the earth (animal and machinery- accidents). These is today's every day scenario.
Ahwatukee, you have been through these things for decades now coz there's nothing else out there.

Wall · Jul 7, 2018

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Luke 21:25-27 (KJV)
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26 (KJV)
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming IN THE CLOUDS with great power and glory.

I already know what you Rapturist will say. Hes coming in the clouds twice. Am i right?

Ahwatukee · Jul 7, 2018

Wall said:

Hello Wall,

Just fyi, the word "Clouds" is not exclusive or unique to any one specific event and should not be used to relate one scripture to another unless the context warrants. For example, believers being caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air as stated in I Thes.4:16-17, has nothing to do with Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven when He returns to the earth to end the age as stated in Matt.24:30-31, as these completely different events, which happen to make mention of the clouds.

When the church is gathered in the clouds with those who will have just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air, Jesus is not returning to the earth at that time, but is returning to gather us and to take us back to the Father's house according to His promise in John 14:1-3. Where in Matt.24:30-31, Jesus is arriving on the clouds of heaven and is returning to the earth to end the age. By putting the gathering of the church as taking place in Matt.24:30-31, you are ignoring the fact that it would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which are not appointed to suffer and which scripture states that Jesus rescues us from and keeps us out of.

You need to take into consideration all of the scriptures regarding end-time characteristics in order to come to a right conclusion. Regarding this, Rev.19:6-8 has the bride/church in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and receiving her fine linen, white and clean and following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses as He returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.19:14.

Consequently, in order for the bride/church to follow the Lord out of heaven, they would already have to be in heaven.

Wall · Jul 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

No worries

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL.

Wall · Jul 7, 2018

Ahwatukee said:

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride.

Can you show me even one scripture that says the church is the bride. One?

Ahwatukee · Jul 7, 2018

Wall said:

Hi Wall!

People have previously attempted many times to use the scripture that you provided above as proof that Jesus is not going to gather His church. However, If you will notice, Jesus prays three separate prayers, first for Himself, then for disciples and then for all believers throughout the entire church period. The scripture that you posted above is specifically apart of the prayer for His disciples, that they not be taken out of the world at that particular time, otherwise who would have been here to preach the gospel? This scripture does not interfere with the Lord's promise to remove the living church prior to God's wrath being poured out.

The fact is that we have John 14:1-3 with Jesus telling us that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that He was coming back again to get believers to take us back to the Father's house, that where He is we may be also. I Thes.4:13-18 is a detailed account of when the Lord comes back to get us and take us back to the Father's house which is in heaven.

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

I'm Not trying to be argumentative with you, just stating the scriptural facts. It's very important to cross-reference and compare all related scriptures in order to come to a right Biblical conclusion.

The next event will be the gathering of the church in order to remove us prior to God's wrath which follows.

Ahwatukee · Jul 7, 2018

Wall said:

Israel is "the wife" of the Father. The church is the bride and Christ is the Bridegroom. The wedding of the Lamb will take place in heaven while God's wrath is being poured out upon the earth, as revealed below:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“Hallelujah!

For our Lord God, the Almighty, reigns. Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory.
For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.
She was given clothing of fine linen, linen bright and pure.”

For the fine linen she wears is the righteous acts of the saints. - Rev.19:6-8

Then in Rev.19:17, the bride is seen following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she will have previously received at the wedding. If you're having a wedding you're not married yet. Right now we are the bride of Christ. And when the church is gathered we will stand at the Bema seat of Christ and will receive our rewards and lose of rewards. After that will be the wedding of the lamb.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Besides those I listed above, here is a reference to the church as being the bride:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”

To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everyone who is going to Jesus then and now, is the bride.

Regarding the rest, you are in error in attempting to use the word "wife" to represent "bride." A wife is already married, which is Israel, where the bride which is the church, is not. It is not until we get to heaven and attend the wedding of the Lamb that we, the church, will be officially be married to the bridegroom.

LW97 · Jul 7, 2018

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition 2 Thessalonians 2:3

The Greek word for "falling away" means "departure"

Wall · Jul 7, 2018

So you cant point out even 1 scripture saying the church is the bride?

Revelation 21:9-12 (KJV)
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

You cannot claim they are not the lambs wife. The bride

Wall · Jul 7, 2018

LW97 said:

2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHO OPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2THES.2 {a falling away} {bad guy exalts himself above all that is called God}
DANIEL 11 {many shall fall} {bad guy exalts himself above every God}

DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

verse 32, the word {covenant}={berit}. Same Hebrew word used pertaining to the covenant of the 10 commandments

So you see the falling away { 2Thes.2} in Daniel. In Daniel do you see ANYTHING that depicts a rapture? Nope! We know these scriptures are speaking of the same event as bad guy exalts himself above all Gods in both scriptures and this will happen only once. As you can plainly see its a falling away from the truth. It is not a rapture.

HOSEA 4 [3] Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away. [4] Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest. [5] Therefore shalt thou FALL IN THE DAY, and the prophet also shall FALL WITH THEE IN THE NIGHT, and I will destroy thy mother. [6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: SEEING THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF THY GOD, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

Hosea 4 points out why they are falling way from the truth. They have forgotten Gods law.

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