Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical

[OneFaith]

Does the Bible give us a clear picture of hell.

There are so many conflicting views on what hell is and what's it's like and who goes there.

My brother recently committed suicide and I'm so afraid that he's in hell now. He professed to be a believer in Christ, but I don't even know if it's possible for a true believer to take their own life.

In any case, hell is the most horrible thing one can imagine. It's rare to hear a sermon on hell, so it's one of those subjects nobody likes to talk about.

I would really like to know the truth about hell, are there people in it now, if so are they going to continue to burn forever, do all of it's inhabitants suffer the same punishment or level of pain, do the dead go to heaven or hell as soon as they die or do they have to wait for judgement day and is it possible for anyone who has taken their own life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'm absolutely devastated by the loss of my brother whom I loved dearly and I'm struggling with the thought that he might be suffering as we speak. Is it worth praying for him now, or is it too late to pray for him.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother. I do not want to seem insensitive by telling you that hell is real, but I cannot lie just to avoid hurting your feelings, but i do care about your situation.

Does the Bible give us a clear picture of hell.

There are so many conflicting views on what hell is and what's it's like and who goes there.

My brother recently committed suicide and I'm so afraid that he's in hell now. He professed to be a believer in Christ, but I don't even know if it's possible for a true believer to take their own life.

In any case, hell is the most horrible thing one can imagine. It's rare to hear a sermon on hell, so it's one of those subjects nobody likes to talk about.

I would really like to know the truth about hell, are there people in it now, if so are they going to continue to burn forever, do all of it's inhabitants suffer the same punishment or level of pain, do the dead go to heaven or hell as soon as they die or do they have to wait for judgement day and is it possible for anyone who has taken their own life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'm absolutely devastated by the loss of my brother whom I loved dearly and I'm struggling with the thought that he might be suffering as we speak. Is it worth praying for him now, or is it too late to pray for him.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother. I can't bend the truth in order to spare your feelings- just like I can't lie and say that if you stick you hand in fire it will not hurt or cause damage. Just as physical fire is real, hell fire is real. Once people die their fate is sealed forever, whichever way. This life is a test, and when this life ends, so does the test.

Suicide is self-murder. The judgement for it is the same as it is on the earth. Some people who go to trial for murder are found innocent for the reason of insanity, or other circumstances. But when God is judging He won't need clues or evidence, because He knows the intentions of each individual. I cannot say where your brother is right now because I do not know all the details that God knows.

Heaven and hell are after judgement day. Right now there is torment and paradise in hades. You want to read Luke 16:19-31. In it we see that these places existed as far back as the old testament times because he asked to go back to the earth and warn his brothers (the earth was still here, it was not speaking about after judgment day) and Abraham said if they won't listen to the Prophets then they won't listen to someone coming back from the dead either. (The Prophets were before Christ).

Hell is real, and most people will go there. Jesus says "Wide is the road that leads to destruction and most enter through it, and narrow is the road that leads to eternal life and few find it." The bible also says "With flames of fire He will take vengeance on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of His Son." It says their worms will never die, that they will be in great darkness, with fire and brimstone, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But the bible says for those who obey God. .. "No éye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind can conceive what God has prepared for those who love Him." Also that He will wipe every tear from their eyes, never again will they hunger, thirst, be burned, grow old, or die.

We hope our loved ones go to heaven, but we have to go there either way. A lady I once studied with online had a baby that died. And at that end of every post she put these song lyrics..

Where oh where could my baby be?
The Lord took her away from me.
She's gone to heaven,
So I've got to be good,
So I see my baby when I leave this world.

 

[MarkWilliams]

mmm...not exactly.
They are raised again at the last day and face the judgement. THEN they die again, the second death, and THAT death is eternal.
Until the judgement, there seems to be (possibly) an awareness of their torment, as with the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

That sound better and more comforting than eternal torment but there are so many passages of scripture that could understood as eternal torment while the person is conscious. The matter is still not settled in my mind, so I will continue to pray for wisdom

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi Stunned! Good to see you dear.
Matthew 26:24 is one place.
If Judas ceases to have conscious existence, it would be exactly as if he had never been born. So why would Jesus day it would be better for him if he had never been born? Jesus is also describing that his punishment is going to be worse than others.

I think it is true that it would have been better for Judas to have never been born than to have to face Jesus on the judgement day. I would rather to never have been born than to have to face that.

As for Jesus saying Judas' punishment will be a worse punishment than for others, where is that?

 

[Magenta]

It puzzles me that people cannot view death as punishment. Obviously
according to them, our court systems have it all wrong and so does God!

I believe that life is a gift. To remain dead forever is obviously an everlasting
punishment. Even the oldest Bible book attests to the fact that the wicked
return to the grave following the day of wrath (otherwise known as judgement).

Job 21:30-32 (KJV)
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to
the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what
he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

People refuse to take Scripture at face value.

Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.

1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said

1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.

God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.

One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.

Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly

God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I DO recall reading the verses elsewhere that say for a town that rejects the gospel/the apostles, on judgement day it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorah than for them...

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm not certain that all who commit suicide believe they will become nonexistent. I think they just think that anything would be more tolerable than continuing to live their life as it is...

Well, since there are only two possibilities, one being in the presence of Christ and the other Hades. I'd think that those who commit suicide who are not in Christ, would be thinking more along the lines of fading to black and becoming non-existent.

 

[PennEd]

I think it is true that it would have been better for Judas to have never been born than to have to face Jesus on the judgement day. I would rather to never have been born than to have to face that.

As for Jesus saying Judas' punishment will be a worse punishment than for others, where is that?

Read Mattew 23:14 for instance. Jesus explicitly tells the Pharisees their damnation will be greater.

 

[MarkWilliams]

I'm sorry to hear about your brother. I do not want to seem insensitive by telling you that hell is real, but I cannot lie just to avoid hurting your feelings, but i do care about your situation.


I'm sorry to hear about your brother. I can't bend the truth in order to spare your feelings- just like I can't lie and say that if you stick you hand in fire it will not hurt or cause damage. Just as physical fire is real, hell fire is real. Once people die their fate is sealed forever, whichever way. This life is a test, and when this life ends, so does the test.

Suicide is self-murder. The judgement for it is the same as it is on the earth. Some people who go to trial for murder are found innocent for the reason of insanity, or other circumstances. But when God is judging He won't need clues or evidence, because He knows the intentions of each individual. I cannot say where your brother is right now because I do not know all the details that God knows.

Heaven and hell are after judgement day. Right now there is torment and paradise in hades. You want to read Luke 16:19-31. In it we see that these places existed as far back as the old testament times because he asked to go back to the earth and warn his brothers (the earth was still here, it was not speaking about after judgment day) and Abraham said if they won't listen to the Prophets then they won't listen to someone coming back from the dead either. (The Prophets were before Christ).

Hell is real, and most people will go there. Jesus says "Wide is the road that leads to destruction and most enter through it, and narrow is the road that leads to eternal life and few find it." The bible also says "With flames of fire He will take vengeance on those who know not God and who obey not the gospel of His Son." It says their worms will never die, that they will be in great darkness, with fire and brimstone, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But the bible says for those who obey God. .. "No éye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind can conceive what God has prepared for those who love Him." Also that He will wipe every tear from their eyes, never again will they hunger, thirst, be burned, grow old, or die.

We hope our loved ones go to heaven, but we have to go there either way. A lady I once studied with online had a baby that died. And at that end of every post she put these song lyrics..

Where oh where could my baby be?
The Lord took her away from me.
She's gone to heaven,
So I've got to be good,
So I see my baby when I leave this world.

So you would say that folks can't claim that the Bible says that those who died outside of Christ will cease to exist in the lake of fire which is the second death. I can see why the idea of annihilation is attractive, it's a good plan B for those who are false believers

 

[Magenta]

The Bible does frequently use the image of eternal fire in order to represent God's anger with sin, which will result in the total destruction of the sinner in the grave. Sodom was punished with "eternal fire" (Jude v. 7), i.e. it was totally destroyed due to the wickedness of the inhabitants. Today that city is in ruins, submerged beneath the waters of the Dead Sea; in no way is it now on fire, which is necessary if we are to understand 'eternal fire' literally.

Likewise Jerusalem was threatened with the eternal fire of God's anger, due to the sins of Israel: "Then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Jerusalem being the prophesied capital of the future Kingdom (Is. 2:2-4; Ps. 48:2), God did not mean us to read this literally. The great houses of Jerusalem were burnt down with fire (2 Kings 25:9), but that fire did not continue eternally.

Similarly, God punished the land of Idumea with fire that would "not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste...the owl and the raven shall dwell in it...thorns shall come up in her palaces" (Is. 34:9-15). Seeing that animals and plants were to exist in the ruined land of Idumea, the language of eternal fire must refer to God's anger and His total destruction of the place, rather than being taken literally.

The Hebrew and Greek phrases which are translated "for ever" mean strictly, "for the age". Sometimes this refers to literal infinity, for example the age of the kingdom, but not always. Ez. 32:14,15 is an example: "The forts and towers shall be dens for ever...until the spirit be poured upon us". This is one way of understanding the 'eternity' of 'eternal fire'.

Time and again God's anger with the sins of Jerusalem and Israel is likened to fire: "Mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place (Jerusalem)...it shall burn, and shall not be quenched" (Jer. 7:20; other examples include Lam. 4:11 and 2 Kings 22:17).

Fire is also associated with God's judgment of sin, especially at the return of Christ: "For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up" (Mal. 4:1). When stubble, or even a human body, is burnt by fire, it returns to dust.

Malachi 4:3
Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under
the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.

It should be noted that "hell" is "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14). This indicates that hell is not the same as "the lake of fire"; this represents complete destruction. In the symbolic manner of the book of Revelation, we are being told that the grave is to be totally destroyed, because at the end of the Millennium there will be no more death.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It puzzles me that people cannot view death as punishment. Obviously
according to them, our court systems have it all wrong and so does God!

I believe that life is a gift. To remain dead forever is obviously an everlasting
punishment. Even the oldest Bible book attests to the fact that the wicked
return to the grave following the day of wrath (otherwise known as judgement).

Job 21:30-32 (KJV)
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to
the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what
he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

People refuse to take Scripture at face value.

Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.

1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said

1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.

God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.

One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.

Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly

God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.

Magenta, why do you continue to ignore the true definition of these words? I have told you and provided over and over again the following regarding Olethros, apollumi and apoleia:

ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Therefore, no matter where those words appear, they cannot and do not infer annihilation or extinction. Read the definition above. All you did was provide the word and apply your definition of destruction, which is a translation from those words. Since the word "destroy" is the translated word, then it must mean the same as the Greek word that it is being translated from.

 

[Magenta]

To say that death means non existence is to ignore many Bible passages that teach that it is not

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

What do you think a soul is? Man became a living soul when?
When God breathed the breath of life into his physical being.

It is the saved who put on the incorruptible and immortality.
Not of ourselves but through our faith in Jesus Christ Who has
overcome death. He alone holds the keys to life.

People erroneously assume the soul to be immortal,
whereas life is found only in Jesus Christ.

The unsaved pass into the second death.
That is explicitly stated in Scripture.

There is no reason why not to accept the Scriptures at their Word on this.
The soul that remains in a state of unbelief at the end of the age perishes.

 

[MarkWilliams]

It puzzles me that people cannot view death as punishment. Obviously
according to them, our court systems have it all wrong and so does God!

I believe that life is a gift. To remain dead forever is obviously an everlasting
punishment. Even the oldest Bible book attests to the fact that the wicked
return to the grave following the day of wrath (otherwise known as judgement).

Job 21:30-32 (KJV)
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to
the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what
he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

People refuse to take Scripture at face value.

Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.

1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said

1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.

God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.

One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.

Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly

God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.

That's all well and good but it's only half of the Gospel, you conveniently left out all the parts where Jesus described death hell as everlasting, where the worm dies not

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It puzzles me that people cannot view death as punishment. Obviously
according to them, our court systems have it all wrong and so does God!

I believe that life is a gift. To remain dead forever is obviously an everlasting
punishment. Even the oldest Bible book attests to the fact that the wicked
return to the grave following the day of wrath (otherwise known as judgement).

Job 21:30-32 (KJV)
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to
the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what
he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

People refuse to take Scripture at face value.

Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.

1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said

1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.

God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.

One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.

Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly

God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.

I liked this post very much.
I don't though, think that people are refusing to take scripture at face value. I think it's just confusing in places to all of us and then we swallow some bit of the teaching of men that tweaks our seeing it without prejudice. And we know that it's hard to get rid of that teaching of men we've swallowed.

And I don't think all men are being evil with their teaching/leaven but are often trying to reconcile what they read into some sort of sense. They do the best that their understanding allows but they don't consider some verses into their equation and so it comes out lopsided.

And then some of us like to come in here and discuss it because many people bring up verses we hadn't considered and it helps us and as we work it out together, we help each other. And we shouldn't make accusations against each other for thinking and changing some thoughts as we work it out. We should be able to feel safe to work these things out together. Iron should sharpen iron. It's good to talk it out with each other. I learn a LOT by discussing with you guys. It DOES sharpen me.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, well, death is forever.

You need to clarify that. The second death is (1) eternal separation from God and Christ in outer darkness and simultaneously (2) eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. So dying is NOT forever, but the agony of the second death is forever.

And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14,15)

What is this passage telling us?

1. Physical death ("death") is TERMINATED when the second death goes into effect. Which means there is no more dying on earth, and no dying in Hell. For "death" to be metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire means that physical death is now replaced by the second death (which is infinitely worse).

2. Hades is EXTERMINATED since there will be no further use for Hades or Sheol/Hades (in the heart of the earth). Until the resurrection of Christ both the righteous and the unrighteous soul and spirits went to Hades. After the resurrection of Christ, the righteous were taken to Heaven, and ever since all the souls and spirits of the saints go directly to be with Christ. However, after the Great White Throne Judgment, there will never again be any unrighteous person on earth. Neither will anyone die. Hence there will be no need of Hades. So when it is "cast into the Lake of Fire" metaphorically, it is in fact exterminated.

3. Those not found in the Lamb's Book of Life will also be cast into the Lake of Fire. These are the unsaved and the unrighteous. For them the second death will be eternal torment, since Hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels as their punishment, which is to suffer eternally.

 

[Magenta]

Magenta, why do you continue to ignore the true definition of these words? I have told you and provided over and over again the following regarding Olethros, apollumi and apoleia:

ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Therefore, no matter where those words appear, they cannot and do not infer annihilation or extinction. Read the definition above. All you did was provide the word and apply your definition of destruction, which is a translation from those words. Since the word "destroy" is the translated word, then it must mean the same as the Greek word that it is being translated from.

I gave the definitions as Strongs provided. Therefore you are a liar.

 

[MarkWilliams]

I liked this post very much.
I don't though, think that people are refusing to take scripture at face value. I think it's just confusing in places to all of us and then we swallow some bit of the teaching of men that tweaks our seeing it without prejudice. And we know that it's hard to get rid of that teaching of men we've swallowed.

And I don't think all men are being evil with their teaching/leaven but are often trying to reconcile what they read into some sort of sense. They do the best that their understanding allows but they don't consider some verses into their equation and so it comes out lopsided.

And then some of us like to come in here and discuss it because many people bring up verses we hadn't considered and it helps us and as we work it out together, we help each other. And we shouldn't make accusations against each other for thinking and changing some thoughts as we work it out. We should be able to feel safe to work these things out together. Iron should sharpen iron. It's good to talk it out with each other. I learn a LOT by discussing with you guys. It DOES sharpen me.

Your right, we tend to hold on to our views as if they were the only ones that matter. A wise person appreciates correction, so it's a good thing that we can learn from each others experience and strengths

 

[Magenta]

That's all well and good but it's only half of the Gospel, you conveniently left out all the parts where Jesus described death hell as everlasting, where the worm dies not

The lost perish and are no more. They go to their death. Hell is the grave.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption
(phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

^^ phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved
for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

shed.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

Jesus Christ has already overcome death.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have no problem with anyone believing death is a state of existing. I allow men to believe what they believe. I don't believe death is a state of existing. I believe it is a state of not existing. I believe death and life are opposites.

I believe there are two deaths possible for every man. And I just don't believe the second death is existence/life of any sort.

But what I mostly don't believe is that men are born with eternal life within them. And I believe the only eternal life there is is in Jesus. I believe He IS eternal life and that no man will experience eternal life without or apart from Him. I believe the only life a man experiences apart from Jesus, (who IS eternal life), is a brief and temporary life on earth.

 

[Magenta]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

 

[Nehemiah6]

All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

In the New Testament, "perish", "destroy", "destruction" DO NOT mean annihilation, but eternal ruin, eternal loss of well being, eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. No one is vaporized.

Therefore we have these solemn words of Christ in Matthew 5:

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.