What does Paul mean by “women will be saved through childbearing”?
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It means that although men should council men and woman should council with woman and especially in a assembly atmosphere she is saved from not being able to council her own sons. (its what they are saved from ) If they do not learn how to respect a woman(mother) that have the same authority of man (father) being in a lesser position and not a lesser person they will get an extension of their mother when they get married along with the mother-in law . The same applies to Fathers and daughters. learn how to listen (hear and obey the opposite sex ) it can save much difficulty later.
Paul is talking about authority and how accountability is on the account of the one with authority/dominion. He has a spiritual implication when he says that.
We first need to know what SIN is and it all starts in the garden of Eden. Sin is not an action but rather it is the spirit of lie in someone's mind/spirit. From the mind (indeed the expression of the mind) it is manifested through spoken word or action. Even though most actions are usually called sin, they are actually manifestation of sin (spirit) and spirit is passed from the one with dominion to their subordinates.
So Eve was the one who sinned first, yet sin (spirit) and there death came to the world on the account of Adam because he had dominion over everything/world. If Adam had not fallen for the lie, sin and therefore death would not have entered the world.
This is shown in the fact the Eve ate the forbidden fruit but her eyes were not opened until the her partner in marriage (because they are one flesh) who had dominion/authority also ate. As soon as Adam eats, both their eyes are opened. It shows that Eves sin was put on the account of Adam.
Therefore, sin (spirit) whose payment is death was put on Adam but each had to still pay for their actions/manifestation of sin. Adam was to eat in his sweat and Eve was to labor during child birth.
In the same manner sin is defeated through authority/dominion when the church (bride) marries God (Jesus)- her sins are put on the account of the one with authority (Jesus) who pays for it as long as we remain faithful/obedient/submissive. And because we are in marriage and we are one flesh with the one who overcomes death/sin, His righteousness is put on our account as the faithful submissive bride (Church).
Paul was very symbolic with that passage- the church is in labor because we still have to pay for our actions and we have to undergo persecution by the antichrist. At the end of it, the church will bear a son (the kingdom of God). This will only be true if we remain submissive to Christ.
This below, is an understandable version of the same:
Eph 5:
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the churc
We first need to know what SIN is and it all starts in the garden of Eden. Sin is not an action but rather it is the spirit of lie in someone's mind/spirit. From the mind (indeed the expression of the mind) it is manifested through spoken word or action. Even though most actions are usually called sin, they are actually manifestation of sin (spirit) and spirit is passed from the one with dominion to their subordinates.
So Eve was the one who sinned first, yet sin (spirit) and there death came to the world on the account of Adam because he had dominion over everything/world. If Adam had not fallen for the lie, sin and therefore death would not have entered the world.
This is shown in the fact the Eve ate the forbidden fruit but her eyes were not opened until the her partner in marriage (because they are one flesh) who had dominion/authority also ate. As soon as Adam eats, both their eyes are opened. It shows that Eves sin was put on the account of Adam.
Therefore, sin (spirit) whose payment is death was put on Adam but each had to still pay for their actions/manifestation of sin. Adam was to eat in his sweat and Eve was to labor during child birth.
In the same manner sin is defeated through authority/dominion when the church (bride) marries God (Jesus)- her sins are put on the account of the one with authority (Jesus) who pays for it as long as we remain faithful/obedient/submissive. And because we are in marriage and we are one flesh with the one who overcomes death/sin, His righteousness is put on our account as the faithful submissive bride (Church).
Paul was very symbolic with that passage- the church is in labor because we still have to pay for our actions and we have to undergo persecution by the antichrist. At the end of it, the church will bear a son (the kingdom of God). This will only be true if we remain submissive to Christ.
This below, is an understandable version of the same:
Eph 5:
21Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the churc
I take it to mean that Mothers and Grandmothers, will be responsible to TRAIN UP A CHILD IN THE WAY HE SHOULD GO, Prov. 22:6. If you think about it, THAT IS THE ROLE WHICH IS MOST IMPORTANT. We men can most of the time, influence only this Generation. While Women, can influence the NEXT TWO GENERATIONS.
You are correct. the LXX version is as follows: "σωθήσεται δὲ διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας ἐὰν μείνωσιν ἐν πίστει καὶ ἀγάπῃ καὶ ἁγιασμῷ μετὰ σωφροσύνης "
The translation (NASB version) of the LXX does contain: ""Women will be preserved through the bearing of children"
Thank you for the correction.
Blade
M
Miri
Guest
I always thought it was about the coming of Christ, in that through childbirth, down the
generations Christ would be born etc.
Something similar as to when God said:
Genesis 3:15 NKJV
[15] And I will put enmity Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
Right at the moment of the fall, God had a redemptive plan.
generations Christ would be born etc.
Something similar as to when God said:
Genesis 3:15 NKJV
[15] And I will put enmity Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."
Right at the moment of the fall, God had a redemptive plan.
M
Miri
Guest
Oh the other thing,
Women only have X chromosomes so can only have girls.
Men have X and Y so can have girls and boys.
So in that sense Christ was born through Adam!
Women only have X chromosomes so can only have girls.
Men have X and Y so can have girls and boys.
So in that sense Christ was born through Adam!
What I meant was that NT verse is not in the LXX. The LXX is the OT; it doesn't have the NT in it. Whatever bible you're reading from is the LXX with an added NT.
yes it's "she" ((singular)) will be saved through childbearing
if "they" ((plural)) abide
. . she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.
(1 Timothy 2:15 YLT)
the "she" obviously refers back to verse 13, Eve.
the "they" doesn't refer to Christ ((there is no "if" Christ abides in faithfulness and love lol)) but to either the children born of "she" -- meaning all the living ((re: why Adam renamed her "Eve" )) -- or to the subset of gender being discussed in the paragraph.
this definitely all goes back to Genesis 3 & we have to understand that before we understand this: that's the subject of vv. 13-15, Genesis 3.
God, pronouncing the curse of the Serpent, said that the seed of the woman would crush his seed, though his seed bruise His heel. it is at this point, after hearing these things, that Adam changes her name from "Woman" to "Eve" and he does it because she will be the mother of all the living ((re: Genesis 3:20)) -- and at that point that the Lord says "behold!! the man has become like one of Us"
He doesn't say it about Eve, He says it about Adam - and He doesn't say it when they eat of the tree or confess, but when Adam demonstrates something by calling the woman "life" after hearing the judgement of God. that's key to understanding this, i think, because Adam immediately recognized the promise of The Seed and believed God. he put all that together and knew that Life would come through Woman ((salvation through the birth of a Child, anyone?)) so he called her "Eve" which means "life"
Its, not about who has the most authority, is the greatest . Husband and wife were created as one to represent the image of God (father and Son) two . Unlike the other beasts of the field he created them separately, made one male and the other female .
Husband and wife like the father and son submit to one another in mutual love . One having a greater position, not greater authority.
Two are needed to establish a loving government
The phrase "behold!! the man has become like one of Us" is in reference to mankind one creation, there was a division .
Both take on the responsibility of mutual submission.
Adam broke it by not protecting his wife Eve giving her the silent treatment .(He was right their beside her) ..It would be like Christ and the church His bride if Christ failed to protect her.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The woman is saved from not being able to teach a male as a higher authority with her own children (male the focus )
If he the male child does not honor both mother and father they will get an extenttion of their mother when he gets married . Woman have the awesome responsibility of raising up males so that they can know how God wants to treat the equal partner and not give them the silent treatment as did Adam. Men must suffer by doing the right thing to protect their wife's .Unlike Ada , self centered (the man has become like one of Us)
Husband and wife like the father and son submit to one another in mutual love . One having a greater position, not greater authority.
Two are needed to establish a loving government
The phrase "behold!! the man has become like one of Us" is in reference to mankind one creation, there was a division .
Both take on the responsibility of mutual submission.
Adam broke it by not protecting his wife Eve giving her the silent treatment .(He was right their beside her) ..It would be like Christ and the church His bride if Christ failed to protect her.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
The woman is saved from not being able to teach a male as a higher authority with her own children (male the focus )
If he the male child does not honor both mother and father they will get an extenttion of their mother when he gets married . Woman have the awesome responsibility of raising up males so that they can know how God wants to treat the equal partner and not give them the silent treatment as did Adam. Men must suffer by doing the right thing to protect their wife's .Unlike Ada , self centered (the man has become like one of Us)
equally submissive to the authority of the other here, acting as servants to each other in terms of the flesh:
The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife.
(1 Corinthians 7:4)
(1 Corinthians 7:4)
unequal authority here; a definite hierarchy described:
For the husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
(Ephesians 5:23-24)
(Ephesians 5:23-24)
this is only speaking of equality if the church has the same authority over Christ as He has over us! Christ is above us in more than position! though He makes Himself servant, He is King and Lord and God.
it's harmonious with what's said in 1 Cor. however -- in vv. 25-26 here the husband is instructed to love the wife in the same way that Christ loves the church: He gave His body for her ((though this Last Adam did not compromise His Spirit on her behalf, as the first Adam did)).
so i am thinking, there is an equality with regard to the body, but there is properly an order of authority with regard to what is not of the body.
Linking 1 Timothy 2:15 to Eve's or Mary' childbirth is untenable IMO because it says a woman will be saved (singular) through her childbearing (genitive) if they (women) continue in godly behavior. Obviously neither Eve nor Mary will be saved (in any way) through other women's godly behavior. IMO Paul makes an uncomfortable and unfortunate switch to the plural in the last part of that verse. We all do things like that.
IMO scripture is God breathed, and while it may be uncomfortable, it is not unfortunate
((pokes at HRFTD))
the association with Eve is immediate, i think - that's what the two verses right before this statement are about! Adam and Eve are being put as an example for us to explain the reasoning. any association with Mary is derived through the association with Eve and the promise made in the curse of the Serpent, of salvation through the birth of a child, 'the Seed of the woman'
The point I was trying to make is the Son has a mutual authority same as the father . Christ said: The father and I are one ... always have been .
Just as mankind, the husband and the wife, two are needed to establish a loving government . One would be higharchy .(The father of lies the god of this world)
Together as one they both work in mutual submission to one another , in perfect harmony . One has the greater position not a greater person .
Both work together to accomplish one propose .As the son submitted to the father and did the work , not being able to accomplish it by his ownself ...he cried out to the father who likewise submitted to the Son giving him strength to finish the work.
God is one just as husband and wife were created before the fall
What kind of authority governs the one body( husband and wife) if not God's?
We are a new creation no longer male nor female Jew nor gentile.
yes but the correlation presented here in the scripture isn't 'love your wives as the Father loves the Son' -- it's as Christ loves the church.
the head of the man is Christ
it's not 'human authority alone' -- but even so God is One; He doesn't require human input to be a righteous ruler.
For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression.
(1 Timothy 2:13-14)
this is *not quite* an analogy to the Father and the Son.
which is, i believe, a good reason that it is the relationship between Christ and the church that is used to describe the right role of the husband and the wife, not the interconnectedness of God the Father and God the Son.
- Adam formed first, and undeceived.
- Woman formed second, for Adam. deceived.
Christ is not 'formed second' nor is He deceived -- 'Father and Son' falls apart immediately as an analogy, right?
IMO scripture is God breathed, and while it may be uncomfortable, it is not unfortunate
((pokes at HRFTD))
the association with Eve is immediate, i think - that's what the two verses right before this statement are about! Adam and Eve are being put as an example for us to explain the reasoning. any association with Mary is derived through the association with Eve and the promise made in the curse of the Serpent, of salvation through the birth of a child, 'the Seed of the woman'
Sure I can see Eve mentioned in the previous verse, but how do you resolve the problematic syntax for an association that I mentioned?
And I agree with the unfortunate part. Perhaps GOD intended for the clumsy syntax to preempt the conclusion that that verse refers to either Eve or Mary.
Ah, you are correct again... I sometimes forget when the program I have automatically switches from LXX (OT) to the mGNT (NT). My apologies.
Blade