Why so much confusion about salvation?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#321
#321
shrume said:
It's called free will.... The CHOICE to decide whether to believe the gospel or not.
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true, but God still has to do the work of bringing a person to faith. He draws people to him, Which is good, because he knows what it will take for a person to believe, and what will not work. He knows each person individually,

Sadly he also knows those who no matter what he does will never come to faith. and leaves them to their own, because he will never force a person beyond their will, He proved that with Jonah.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#322
Jun 13, 2018
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#322
shrume said:
You should really stop saying things like that... You're just alienating yourself.


Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by works. The Bible does not say that faith is a gift, it says that salvation is the gift, and we receive that gift by faith (trust), which anyone can choose to do (once they've heard the gospel).
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I don't believe the Bible teaches that faith is a choice, can you provide any scriptures to support that view
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#323
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#323
shrume said:
Two unbelieving parents can produce a child that will choose to believe.
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The context is not physical reproduction but Spiritual.

Apostacy does not produce biblical Christians. Heresy does not produce biblical Christians. Men choose apostacy or heresy because they reject the truth of Gods word. This is why sound doctrine is so important.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#324
#324
notuptome said:
The problem is that each kind reproduces after its kind. Tares reproduce tares and wheat reproduces wheat. The world is filled with tares waiting the sifting out of the return of Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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true, But before I came to faith, I was "technically" a tare also.. God made me a new creature. thus I am no longer a tare. He also did not remove me, or cut the other tares around me, He let us grow together. Otherwise some other tares may not be changed
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#325
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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#325
eternally-gratefull said:
true, but God still has to do the work of bringing a person to faith. He draws people to him, Which is good, because he knows what it will take for a person to believe, and what will not work. He knows each person individually,
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God is doing that for everyone. He truly does want all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4), He truly does not want anyone to perish (2 Pet 3:9).

Sadly he also knows those who no matter what he does will never come to faith. and leaves them to their own, because he will never force a person beyond their will, He proved that with Jonah.
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This is a topic for another thread, but I don't believe that He does.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#326
#326
MarkWilliams said:
I don't believe the Bible teaches that faith is a choice, can you provide any scriptures to support that view
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eph 1 comes to mind (hear the word and believe)
John 3 (whoever believes)
in the OT, Gods tells us to chose to serve the lord.
rev tells us he comes knocking, we must open the door.

They are there, you just have to see them.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#327
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
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#327
eternally-gratefull said:
Did you really read what I posted? Because I answered your question about was I smarter than others in this post. Since you liked it, did you see what I said about HOW I came to faith?


I ask, because I am just curious if you saw what I said, all of it.
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Yep, you said it was all of God and you did nothing to earn your salvation and I said that's right and Biblical. Did I miss something
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#328
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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#328
notuptome said:
The context is not physical reproduction but Spiritual.
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What is "spiritual reproduction", Roger? Can you give a real-life example?

Apostacy does not produce biblical Christians. Heresy does not produce biblical Christians. Men choose apostacy or heresy because they reject the truth of Gods word. This is why sound doctrine is so important.
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You can have two parents who are apostate, or who are heretics. They can have a child who will come to believe the truth.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#329
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#329
shrume said:
God is doing that for everyone. He truly does want all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4), He truly does not want anyone to perish (2 Pet 3:9).


This is a topic for another thread, but I don't believe that He does.
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So you don't believe what the Bible says about those that God has chosen to leave dead in their sin?
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#330
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#330
eternally-gratefull said:
true, But before I came to faith, I was "technically" a tare also.. God made me a new creature. thus I am no longer a tare. He also did not remove me, or cut the other tares around me, He let us grow together. Otherwise some other tares may not be changed
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Yes but the tares are going about creating confusion because they profess what they do not possess. Corrupted doctrine cannot produce good fruit.

It is the blood of Christ that separates believers from pretenders.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#331
#331
shrume said:
God is doing that for everyone. He truly does want all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4), He truly does not want anyone to perish (2 Pet 3:9).
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Yes he will, But there are some he knows will never recieve no matter what he does. Thats why many for years never heard the gospel.

God works behind the scenes, and knows things we will not know unti we see him face to face.

This is a topic for another thread, but I don't believe that He does.
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How can God not know? He is either omniscient and knows all things or he does not. Non of this makes sense of God is out there not knowing who will believe and who will not. Predestination then becomes fatalistic, and not according to free will
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#332
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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#332
MarkWilliams said:
I don't believe the Bible teaches that faith is a choice, can you provide any scriptures to support that view
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Sigh... I already have, Mark.

Deut 30:
19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eze 33:
11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

There are many more.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#333
#333
MarkWilliams said:
Yep, you said it was all of God and you did nothing to earn your salvation and I said that's right and Biblical. Did I miss something
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ok, just asking, Because you asked me if I thought one person was smarter than another if that is why they believed.

I gave you my answer in that post.
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#335
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#335
shrume said:
What is "spiritual reproduction", Roger? Can you give a real-life example?
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Christ said go into all the world and witness to them of the saving grace of God. We are to make disciples. Mat 28
You can have two parents who are apostate, or who are heretics. They can have a child who will come to believe the truth.
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God is merciful but the parents had no hand in the matter. The child following the parents would be twice the child of hell as the parents. Heed the warning that Jesus gave to the Pharisees.

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#336
#336
notuptome said:
Yes but the tares are going about creating confusion because they profess what they do not possess. Corrupted doctrine cannot produce good fruit.

It is the blood of Christ that separates believers from pretenders.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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true, there are different kinds of tares.. they all need help. and God calls for us to love them and help them, while at same time, beware of their leaven.
 
carl11

carl11

Senior Member
#337
Oct 20, 2017
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#337
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
IT sounds strange because it is strange. GOD doesn't force himself on anyone. It is written that he leads people who hunger and thirst for righteousness to Christ. They choose to believe in him because it is what they have been looking for.
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If Christ does not force himself on anybody then how does Jn. 6:44 apply to the equation ??
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#338
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
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#338
carl11 said:
If Christ does not force himself on anybody then how does Jn. 6:44 apply to the equation ??
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God is drawing all men. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9).
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#339
#339
carl11 said:
If Christ does not force himself on anybody then how does Jn. 6:44 apply to the equation ??
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did God force himself on the disciples who walked away from him that day? Did he force peter and the rest to continue wiht him? Did He force Judas, who we know did not believe, to continue to walk with jesus until he turned Jesus in.

WHo does God draw? Those he know will follow. or those he forces to follow? )as apposed to those he forces to reject)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#340
#340
shrume said:
God is drawing all men. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9).
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amen, many are called, few are chosen.
 
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