Speaking in tongues

[garee]

Tongues are described as a confirmatory sign. Tongues confirmed that the person who was just saved was indeed filled with the same Holy Spirit that filled the apostles at Pentecost. The same Holy Spirit working in Gentiles as was working in the Jews who were saved through Jesus Christ the God given Messiah.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No such thing as a sign gift. The two words sign and gift do not come together to form, Charismaticism .

There is not outward gift as a sign to confirm a person believes prophecy (has the Holy Spirit) . That of course include the newer phenomena falling back, slain in the spirit, as a sign that means a person is under the eternal judgment of God, confirming unbelief ( no faith) .or holy laughter or crying a few of the things that come under the term "Charismaticism" as those who seek s after the things seen the temporal in a hope the kingdom of God does come by observation .It simply follows after the apostate Jews who made prophecy without effect through the oral traditions of men

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

The law is clear read it slowly and carefully. The sign of God's mocking lip is against thos who belive not prophecy (the word of God)

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Cor. 14:21-22


Who is the sign in resepct to, and what does it confirm?

 

[garee]

Tongues is most definitely based on scriptural evidence. And when a person believes what the scriptures say and steps out on it, the physical evidence is ... evident.

Evidence of what? No prophecy?

 

[shrume]

Evidence of what? No prophecy?

I'm sorry, garee... but many of your posts simply do not make sense.

 

[garee]

I'm sorry, garee... but many of your posts simply do not make sense.

Thanks .its not my goal to be misunderstood .

Again evidence of what? Did you look at the law in 1 Cor. 14:21-22?

 

[CS1]

How about all of them.

All mentions of tongues in the New Testament are physical supernatural manifestations. Since what is claimed today is obviously not supernatural, this movement is by nature not scriptural.

IOW, for the utterances to be of God it would have to be supernatural not simply babble.

wrong

 

[CS1]

Modern day "tongues" is not based on physcial or scriptual evidence but rather is a self-conviction rooted on one's own experiences and desires. A dangerous mindset that leads to further heresy. Dabating this issue is like dabating flat-earthers.

wrong

 

[Kavik]

Modern day "tongues" is not based on physcial or scriptual evidence but rather is a self-conviction rooted on one's own experiences and desires. A dangerous mindset that leads to further heresy.

Yes, I agree to a point – modern tongues is not at all based on scriptural evidence; what tongues-speakers are doing today, with respect to its inclusion in Christianity, is a very modern phenomenon. It is not at all evidenced in the Bible; though many people have no issues with reading it into the texts in order to 'evidence' the modern phenomenon.

Not sure what you mean by not based on ‘physical evidence’ – if by that you mean modern tongues is not language (i.e. no physical evidence that what’s being produced is language), then, yes, that’s true.

I agree to a point that it is a very self-created phenomenon based on one’s beliefs, experiences and desires – for some I would go so far as to say that it is such a deep-rooted desire to ‘experience God’, that one creates that experience (via ‘tongues’). Agnes Ozman, one of the first modern tongues-speakers, was perhaps the best example of this.

That it is a dangerous mindset – I think really depends. If it serves to strengthen one’s spiritual path and/or ‘relationship’ with the divine, then no, I certainly don’t see that as dangerous in any way. In fact, the ‘tongues experience’ for most can be quite powerful.

I do think however, that one must recognize modern tongues for what they are – a (self-created) tool by which to establish a closer relationship with the divine. As previously stated, the ‘tongues experience’ may be a supernatural one for some, but what is produced and how it is produced is far from supernatural. I don’t see the modern phenomenon as heretical in any broad sense of the term.

 

[CS1]

Interpretation cannot be done by the speaker. A testimony must be affirmed by two or three witnesses to be established as true according to Jewish tradition. A matter cannot be established by only one witness.

There was no separate interpretation because all heard in their own language or tongue. There were many witnesses to the matter and it was established to be true.

It is difficult to really know what was going on in Corinth but it was not following the pattern established in Acts.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

lol that is not correct , how is you think you can control the Holy Spirit ? you have bad issue of building a tent around one statement in a verse. Being tongues is the main isuse with many here what about the other gifts of the Holy Spirit? You asked sometime back
what is the best gift?

I think you forgot the answer. I will tell you what the word "best " contextually when Paul said in 1cor 12:31

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. "
the word best means most effective . What Paul is saying the Holy Spirit is the one who will aollow you to be used of any or any gifts that is needed to do the job The Holy Spirit is leading you to do. Can all 9 be operated in one person sure. can one speak intongues and interpret his message yes. the interpretation is not a tranlation . the speaking is under the inspiration of the Spirit of God what is said in through interpretation is to be judged by the word of Godf as the full context of 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 instruct.

 

[CS1]

No such thing as a sign gift. The two words sign and gift do not come together to form, Charismaticism .

There is not outward gift as a sign to confirm a person believes prophecy (has the Holy Spirit) . That of course include the newer phenomena falling back, slain in the spirit, as a sign that means a person is under the eternal judgment of God, confirming unbelief ( no faith) .or holy laughter or crying a few of the things that come under the term "Charismaticism" as those who seek s after the things seen the temporal in a hope the kingdom of God does come by observation .It simply follows after the apostate Jews who made prophecy without effect through the oral traditions of men

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

The law is clear read it slowly and carefully. The sign of God's mocking lip is against thos who belive not prophecy (the word of God)

In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Cor. 14:21-22


Who is the sign in resepct to, and what does it confirm?

wrong the context you have used is not even done that way in the Book of Acts and 1cor 12. 13. and 14 . you are reading into the verses because of your bias. The Book of Acts speaks against your understanding contextually. the vewrses you used do not reflect Acts 2

 

[CS1]

Modern day "tongues" is not based on physcial or scriptual evidence but rather is a self-conviction rooted on one's own experiences and desires. A dangerous mindset that leads to further heresy.

Yes, I agree to a point – modern tongues is not at all based on scriptural evidence; what tongues-speakers are doing today, with respect to its inclusion in Christianity, is a very modern phenomenon. It is not at all evidenced in the Bible; though many people have no issues with reading it into the texts in order to 'evidence' the modern phenomenon.

Not sure what you mean by not based on ‘physical evidence’ – if by that you mean modern tongues is not language (i.e. no physical evidence that what’s being produced is language), then, yes, that’s true.

I agree to a point that it is a very self-created phenomenon based on one’s beliefs, experiences and desires – for some I would go so far as to say that it is such a deep-rooted desire to ‘experience God’, that one creates that experience (via ‘tongues’). Agnes Ozman, one of the first modern tongues-speakers, was perhaps the best example of this.

That it is a dangerous mindset – I think really depends. If it serves to strengthen one’s spiritual path and/or ‘relationship’ with the divine, then no, I certainly don’t see that as dangerous in any way. In fact, the ‘tongues experience’ for most can be quite powerful.

I do think however, that one must recognize modern tongues for what they are – a (self-created) tool by which to establish a closer relationship with the divine. As previously stated, the ‘tongues experience’ may be a supernatural one for some, but what is produced and how it is produced is far from supernatural. I don’t see the modern phenomenon as heretical in any broad sense of the term.

Wrong “modern tongues”: is a false narrative created by those who oppose the gift of tongues for today. They think the gift of tongues was made up by those in 1901 .

This is because of the bias they have. Even in Pentecostal doctrine the event is taught from the word of God. Those who think it is stopped use only one VERSE in the New Testament which they think once the bible was put together the gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased. 1cor 13:8-12

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.NIV

Verse 10 in the KJV says : “But when that which is perfect is come,”

What is the Perfect? It is Jesus even with the Bible we do not fully know all so this idea is not supported by the word of God . If the Bible is all you need that which is perfect Which Gods word is , Jesus is a the one we are looking to see the Hope of the Church.

This is a false teaching. Pride has prevented them from seeing this.

 

[Noose]

What else do people do?

 

[CS1]

What else do people do?

lol yea this is a a very large church, I do not see how this has anything to do with 1cor 12,13, and 14 . But if you would like to handle a snake please do .

 

[notuptome]

lol that is not correct , how is you think you can control the Holy Spirit ? you have bad issue of building a tent around one statement in a verse. Being tongues is the main isuse with many here what about the other gifts of the Holy Spirit? You asked sometime back
what is the best gift?

I think you forgot the answer. I will tell you what the word "best " contextually when Paul said in 1cor 12:31

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. "
the word best means most effective . What Paul is saying the Holy Spirit is the one who will aollow you to be used of any or any gifts that is needed to do the job The Holy Spirit is leading you to do. Can all 9 be operated in one person sure. can one speak intongues and interpret his message yes. the interpretation is not a tranlation . the speaking is under the inspiration of the Spirit of God what is said in through interpretation is to be judged by the word of Godf as the full context of 1cor chapter 12, 13, and 14 instruct.

LOL of course it is correct.

Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Jesus said it.

Now go ahead and disregard it because it doesn't fit your narrative but you cannot change scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DJ2]

What else do people do?

These people are simply labeling "snake charming" as supernatural snake handling. Just as some today label "babble" as supernatural 1st century tongues. Neither one can prove the legitimacy of their acts as being from God and not man.

 

[Noose]

lol yea this is a a very large church, I do not see how this has anything to do with 1cor 12,13, and 14 . But if you would like to handle a snake please do .

It has everything to do with Mark 16:17 and they also say that.

 

[Noose]

These people are simply labeling "snake charming" as supernatural snake handling. Just as some today label "babble" as supernatural 1st century tongues. Neither one can prove the legitimacy of their acts as being from God and not man.

The snake handlers do that because of this:

Mark 16:17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Taking a verse out of context and holding on it to the very end plus they also believe they have genuine tongues- another reason not to believe when someone says they have genuine tongues.
And the people who talk of genuine tongues here, what right do they have to castigate snake handlers?

 

[DJ2]

lol yea this is a a very large church, I do not see how this has anything to do with 1cor 12,13, and 14 . But if you would like to handle a snake please do .

Regardless of the size of their church, it is the mindset that is the same. You are simply turning a blind eye to the glaring hole in pentecostal logic. Labeling modern events as on par with what was happening in the 1st century is their undoing.

 

[CS1]

LOL of course it is correct.

Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Jesus said it.

Now go ahead and disregard it because it doesn't fit your narrative but you cannot change scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I disregard your bias and you have used one verse out of context as you have a habit of doing. you have not proven 1cor 13:8-10

that which is "perfect" is the bible as you think. and Mt 18:16 you are using to rebuke, and justify your opinion. Shame on you . try bring Biblical context to your position to support your claim concerning 1cor 13:8-10. Instead of insults and underlying comments .

 

[DJ2]

The snake handlers do that because of this:

Mark 16:17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Taking a verse out of context and holding on it to the very end plus they also believe they have genuine tongues- another reason not to believe when someone says they have genuine tongues.
And the people who talk of genuine tongues here, what right do they have to castigate snake handlers?

They have no right to castigate flat-earthers either.

 

[Noose]

These people are simply labeling "snake charming" as supernatural snake handling. Just as some today label "babble" as supernatural 1st century tongues. Neither one can prove the legitimacy of their acts as being from God and not man.

They do both, they have to do both.