The cultic origins of Annihilationism
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As I continue to state, the burden of proof is on those who claim the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, for if one reads it at it plain literal meaning i.e. just as it appears in print, then it means what it says. Those who interpret it as a parable do so by force.
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"
The spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. At the time of death Lazarus' spirit was taken to Abraham's side, which was located in Hades in a place of comfort/paradise down under the earth. The rich man's spirit however was in torment in flame.
"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
Abraham makes reference to when the rich man was alive , i.e. in his body upon the earth and living a luxurious life and Lazarus when he was alive in his body received bad things who was no comforted and the rich man was in agony being tormented in the flame. Though they were all in Sheol/Hades, there was a great chasm which separated the two places of comfort and torment so that "those" who wanted to cross over from either side could not do so, which would infer that there were others on both sides.
"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’
The rich man desires for Abraham to send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they don't come to that same place of torment. But Abraham refers him to Moses and the prophets, i.e. they can be warned through the witings of Moses and the prophets, the word of God.
In further support of all parties being dead, i.e. their bodies, both the rich man and Abraham respond to the rich man's request for Lazarus to go up to his fathers house as referring to Lazarus rising from the dead.
It is very simple to understand this literal event if you will take it at its plain meaning just as it is written. It is when this event is forced into a parable that it becomes distorted and its meaning is lost.
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’"
The spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were conscious and aware after the death of their bodies. At the time of death Lazarus' spirit was taken to Abraham's side, which was located in Hades in a place of comfort/paradise down under the earth. The rich man's spirit however was in torment in flame.
"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
Abraham makes reference to when the rich man was alive , i.e. in his body upon the earth and living a luxurious life and Lazarus when he was alive in his body received bad things who was no comforted and the rich man was in agony being tormented in the flame. Though they were all in Sheol/Hades, there was a great chasm which separated the two places of comfort and torment so that "those" who wanted to cross over from either side could not do so, which would infer that there were others on both sides.
"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’
The rich man desires for Abraham to send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they don't come to that same place of torment. But Abraham refers him to Moses and the prophets, i.e. they can be warned through the witings of Moses and the prophets, the word of God.
In further support of all parties being dead, i.e. their bodies, both the rich man and Abraham respond to the rich man's request for Lazarus to go up to his fathers house as referring to Lazarus rising from the dead.
It is very simple to understand this literal event if you will take it at its plain meaning just as it is written. It is when this event is forced into a parable that it becomes distorted and its meaning is lost.
that is the issue Ahwatukee ,
they do not take all of the word of Jesus in context to what HE said about hell. " it's Parable " and? LOL to know what Jesus said about a topic you have to see everything HE said. this https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/251-will-wicked-people-be-annihilated-in-hell
is pretty good
they do not take all of the word of Jesus in context to what HE said about hell. " it's Parable " and? LOL to know what Jesus said about a topic you have to see everything HE said. this https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/251-will-wicked-people-be-annihilated-in-hell
is pretty good
I agree that there is a comparison between the lost and the saved BUT God specifically says: For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind . . . the former what? because the former troubles are forgotten.
You say it is the lost that are forgotten - yet you say that the rich man and Lazarus is an example of consciousness in death - how can the lost be forgotten if we see their torment and hear them crying for water?
I do not render that it is "the lost who remember no more" in Ecclesiastes - you did. Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. . . . The living know they shall die - we all know one day we will die unless the Lord returns first but the DEAD know not any thing, the DEAD have no more reward, the DEAD's memory is forgotten. Don't you know any one who has died? Have you forgotten them? The living know, the living remember, the living have a reward for what they are doing . . . I have a job, my reward is my pay check . . I mow the yard, my reward is having a nice yard . . .
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun . . . the DEAD - [Those living still love, still hate (at times) and still have envy (at times)].
7-10) So the living should: Go your way, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God now accepts your works. Let your garments be always white; and let your head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity which he has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity: for that is your portion in this life, and in your labor which you take under the sun. Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, no device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go - the DEAD.
You say it is the lost that are forgotten - yet you say that the rich man and Lazarus is an example of consciousness in death - how can the lost be forgotten if we see their torment and hear them crying for water?
I do not render that it is "the lost who remember no more" in Ecclesiastes - you did. Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. . . . The living know they shall die - we all know one day we will die unless the Lord returns first but the DEAD know not any thing, the DEAD have no more reward, the DEAD's memory is forgotten. Don't you know any one who has died? Have you forgotten them? The living know, the living remember, the living have a reward for what they are doing . . . I have a job, my reward is my pay check . . I mow the yard, my reward is having a nice yard . . .
6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun . . . the DEAD - [Those living still love, still hate (at times) and still have envy (at times)].
7-10) So the living should: Go your way, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God now accepts your works. Let your garments be always white; and let your head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of the life of your vanity which he has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity: for that is your portion in this life, and in your labor which you take under the sun. Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, no device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go - the DEAD.
Try to think about how the last things He throws into the lake of fire are hell and its contents, and death - and how death is destroyed in that fire but hell and its contents aren't?
Biblically, the only ones that are strictly and specifically said to be in torment day and night forever and ever is the unholy trinity. Unbelievers are said to have their part in the lake of fire, but it says something different than the torment forever of the unholy trinity. It says instead, this is the second death.
Biblically, the only ones that are strictly and specifically said to be in torment day and night forever and ever is the unholy trinity. Unbelievers are said to have their part in the lake of fire, but it says something different than the torment forever of the unholy trinity. It says instead, this is the second death.
What is it that God is forgetting? What is hid from his eyes? . . . That he who blesses himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that swears in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; WHY- because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they - THEY refers to what previous noun? - hid from my eyes.
New sentence: For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former (the former what?) heaven and earth shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
New sentence: For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former (the former what?) heaven and earth shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Are you being serious??
He talked about how we could not be happy knowing our loved ones on earth are in eternal torment every day and he gave a verse that makes him think the memory of them wont even come into our minds.
Because he did not use the exact words: ""hearing those crying from hell," you will say he hasn't addressed this matter as to what he thinks regarding it??
Good grief!
He talked about how we could not be happy knowing our loved ones on earth are in eternal torment every day and he gave a verse that makes him think the memory of them wont even come into our minds.
Because he did not use the exact words: ""hearing those crying from hell," you will say he hasn't addressed this matter as to what he thinks regarding it??
Good grief!
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Geez . . . I said I was sorry . . . I just didn't see it . . .
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And God will give immortality to His children. How come you forgot that?
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Tim 1:10).
Since God is already immortal, for whom is this "life and immortality through the Gospel" other than for His saints?
SO YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY FOR SAYING MY POST WAS HERETICAL.
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Tim 1:10).
Since God is already immortal, for whom is this "life and immortality through the Gospel" other than for His saints?
SO YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY FOR SAYING MY POST WAS HERETICAL.
Well... If we're playing tennis, I guess it's my serve:
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here it SPECIFICALLY says that not only will those receiving the mark be tortured, not annihilated, but that THEY, as well as the the other 3, have no rest day or night.
Not a gotcha question, but how can this passage mean anything other than what it says?
Also, it's Hades that is cast into gehenna. When we think of hell, most times I believe it is gehenna, or the lake of fire.
Revelation 14
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here it SPECIFICALLY says that not only will those receiving the mark be tortured, not annihilated, but that THEY, as well as the the other 3, have no rest day or night.
Not a gotcha question, but how can this passage mean anything other than what it says?
Also, it's Hades that is cast into gehenna. When we think of hell, most times I believe it is gehenna, or the lake of fire.
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PennEd, I wish you were my neighbor so I could come over and talk on your porch. I would be there every night and you and your wife would be saying, turn out the lights, quick, act like we aren't here. I think Shrume would be there every night too... The neighbors would be like, look at those fools out there again working on that darn puzzle.
The neighbors would be like, look at those fools out there again working on that darn puzzle.
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