Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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I have been more than completely honest and open with you about why I believe the way I do, including my belief that God is interested in us "subduing our worldly mind" more than trees and animals and rocks and I posted one scripture regarding Cain where I believe this intent is shared with us.

This has all been about justifying your religious tradition of rejecting some of God's Laws. It is obvious you don't agree with the arguments I put forward, compelling as they are. I see no reason to continue this seemingly endless questions and inquisition given you pretty much ignore the reasons I give for my understanding anyway. It seems even if I do give more scriptures which support my belief that God is more interested in our minds than He is in rocks and trees and dirt, that you will just move on to another question, and on and on and on. The discussion seems pretty much one sided.

You and I see the scriptures differently.

I'm fine with that.
I'm still not clear on whether subduing the Earth is part of your list of The Commandments given to Abraham and all mankind.
yes I agree that subduing our mind is a part of the Christian Life.
I'm not asking you these questions because I am trying to justify a religious tradition. I'm asking you because I think that at heart your views do not line up with the scriptures. and I think that at heart, you would like to know that.
I do not think that your arguments are compelling, I think they involve a lot of speculation and big leaps. I do not ignore your answers, I ask further questions based on those answers. If I feel you have not answered a question I may ask it again.
Why do you feel that the discussion is one-sided? Is it because I asked a lot of questions? discussions often involve a lot of questions. You are welcome to ask me questions. if you feel I haven't answered you are welcome to ask it again.
I am fine simply posting scriptures also. The reason I was asking you to list the laws from God given to Abraham and all mankind was that you had responded to a post I had written to posthuman about Galatians 4, which used the phrase Under the law. I believe you said the subject was very important to you, so I was following up on it and giving you a chance to explain further.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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While Abraham could have known as well as Adam surely did that God would redeem His creation and bring forth salvation, "Passover" didn't occur until over 400 years after Abraham, in the Exodus.

In Genesis 15:13-14 God informs Abraham that his descendents will be in bondage in a foreign land but that He will bring them out and punish that land, but He doesn't say Egypt and doesn't give the details of the 10th plague.
interesting situation developing here.
I would think that a person who kept the Sabbath would be very interested and whether a sacrifice was burnt or eaten.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But that is the same argument you make regarding the "LAW" that was ":ADDED" 430 years after Abraham. You say that because Paul says "Law" he must be speaking about every law that God ever gave His People. I argue that God has His Law, given to Abraham and Noah, and their Children, and that He "added" a Priesthood, given to the Levites that was compiled of "Works" performed for the remission of sin, "till the Seed should Come". A "Law of Works" that Abraham didn't have.

I have asked before, what was this "ADDED" Law "ADDED" to? What was being transgressed that prompted God to "ADD" a " Law of Works"?
No, Paul - and every Hebrew writer - is clear about referring to the whole set of ordinances, laws, commandments and appointed days and rites given by God through Moses as a covenant regulation at Horeb. It is called "the Law" consistently throughout the Bible.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Are you quoting something Abraham would have read? Are you ignorant or are you just obstinate?

The Bible says Christ was a mystery that even the angels longed to look into. 1 Peter 1:12
There, now possible ignorance is begun to be addressed. I can't fix the other potential problem.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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="Dan_473, post: 3638860, member: 190874"]I believe you misunderstand what I am saying.


yes, Jesus is the word made flesh. yes he made all things including the laws and Commandments.

Abraham had laws from God. The question is, which ones?
That is your question, not mine. You are trying to justify your rejection of His Sabbath. I'm not interested in rejecting God's Words, as Eve did, I'm interested in the "Faith" of Abraham.


Yes Abraham did not pick n choose which Commandments to keep.

yes God separated the 7th day.


yes the Sabbath was made for man, and Abraham was a man.

Yes Christ's day was seen by Abraham.

yes Zachariah recognized Jesus.

Yes the Pharisees did not recognize Jesus.

now we come to the really good part

That's correct, the above paragraph is not speculation. What is speculation is saying that Abraham did not do physical work on the Sabbath.
Lol, This is the difference between you and I Dan. I think the truths above are the "really good part". I don't need to find a reason to ignore them or reject them from my understanding.

It doesn't matter to me what commands were given to Abraham Dan. God gave Abraham Commands and Abraham followed them. If God gives me Commands, and I choose to reject them because the religious franchise I choose to partake of teaches against them, am I doing the "Works" of Abraham? No Dan!!

Abraham and Eve received instructions from God and Abraham followed them, while Eve didn't. She didn't listen to "Every Word of God, she listened to a voice that used some of God's Word to convince her NOT to follow the instructions of God.. You are I have also received instructions from the same God. According to the Bible, should we do the Works of Abraham, or Eve?

why the question? Because it appears that in the early part of the old Testament especially, the laws were given over time. for example the commandment not to eat blood with animal meat probably wasn't given to Adam. Do you think Adam was commanded not to eat meat with blood in it?
I have no reason to believe that God made things up as He went, or that He didn't give instructions to His creation. You are concerned with what the instructions were, because you have been convinced, by those using some of God's Word, that you don't have to follow God's Instructions like Abraham did, that you can be like Eve and still receive the Promise. Maybe you can, but the Scriptures bring that teaching in question.


it also looks like Abraham is not given the commandment to be physically circumcised until he is very old, because he is not physically circumcised has a young man. since we know that Abraham kept God's laws that he had and he wasn't circumcised until he was an old man he must not have had the commandment to be physically circumcised until he was old.
Circumcision was a sign of his obedience. But he was circumcised in heart from the very beginning. If you really wanted to understand Circumcision you would study it and understand the same thing Paul understood. But because, it seems, you are only interested in using Circumcision as justification for your rejection of God's Sabbath, you don't do it. I have, therefore we have different understandings.

we can also see that when God tells humans not to eat blood he speaks to them. and we also see that in Genesis 2 wear God sanctifies the Sabbath, there is no report of God speaking to humans. this leads me to question whether God commanded Adam to keep the Sabbath. and since I don't know for sure, if I were to say one way or the other for sure, that would be speculation.
I don't believe God sanctified and separated His Sabbath, and did so for man, "HID" His Sabbath from His Children. I have no reason to think this way. But regardless if God shared His Creation with Adam as I believe He did, or Hid His Creation from Adam, as you suggest, it really doesn't matter. You are I were given the Commandment. We have both had a voice telling us, in very compelling words, that we won't die if we reject God's Instructions and follow another's instruction. Abraham and Eve are "Examples" of how God feels about each choice. That is not speculation.


this is why I think it would be good for you to list scripture references for all the Commandments in God's Universal law given to Abraham and all mankind in the order that they appear in the scriptures. Then we could see that a glance how this all works for you. how many verses do you think it would be?
It seems you already understand, why are you still asking for more support from my belief?

Yes Abraham did not pick n choose which Commandments to keep.
yes God separated the 7th day.
yes the Sabbath was made for man, and Abraham was a man.
Yes Christ's day was seen by Abraham
.
yes Zachariah recognized Jesus.
Yes the Pharisees did not recognize Jesus.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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No, Paul - and every Hebrew writer - is clear about referring to the whole set of ordinances, laws, commandments and appointed days and rites given by God through Moses as a covenant regulation at Horeb. It is called "the Law" consistently throughout the Bible.


Are you quoting something Abraham would have read? Are you ignorant or are you just obstinate?

The Bible says Christ was a mystery that even the angels longed to look into. 1 Peter 1:12
There, now possible ignorance is begun to be addressed. I can't fix the other potential problem.
From your posts that I have studied, He is still a mystery, at least the Christ of the Bible.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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interesting situation developing here.
I would think that a person who kept the Sabbath would be very interested and whether a sacrifice was burnt or eaten.
That does seem to be important to God.

For example, at the fortelling of the birth of Samson:

Judges 13:15-16
Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "Please let us detain you and prepare a young goat for you." And the angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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From your posts that I have studied, He is still a mystery, at least the Christ of the Bible.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
So, proven wrong, you resort just slander again, basically. With some ripped out of context, uncited verses to give an air of legitimacy to anyone who doesn't know what they are reading?

How do you have the gall to act like this and boast at the same time that you 'consider all of God's Word'? That's a real mystery.

I forgive you your sins against me, even though you never ask for it, because I received mercy and wish also to give it, to do as I would have done to me.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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="Dan_473, post: 3638860, member: 190874"]I believe you misunderstand what I am saying.




That is your question, not mine. You are trying to justify your rejection of His Sabbath. I'm not interested in rejecting God's Words, as Eve did, I'm interested in the "Faith" of Abraham.




Lol, This is the difference between you and I Dan. I think the truths above are the "really good part". I don't need to find a reason to ignore them or reject them from my understanding.

It doesn't matter to me what commands were given to Abraham Dan. God gave Abraham Commands and Abraham followed them. If God gives me Commands, and I choose to reject them because the religious franchise I choose to partake of teaches against them, am I doing the "Works" of Abraham? No Dan!!

Abraham and Eve received instructions from God and Abraham followed them, while Eve didn't. She didn't listen to "Every Word of God, she listened to a voice that used some of God's Word to convince her NOT to follow the instructions of God.. You are I have also received instructions from the same God. According to the Bible, should we do the Works of Abraham, or Eve?



I have no reason to believe that God made things up as He went, or that He didn't give instructions to His creation. You are concerned with what the instructions were, because you have been convinced, by those using some of God's Word, that you don't have to follow God's Instructions like Abraham did, that you can be like Eve and still receive the Promise. Maybe you can, but the Scriptures bring that teaching in question.




Circumcision was a sign of his obedience. But he was circumcised in heart from the very beginning. If you really wanted to understand Circumcision you would study it and understand the same thing Paul understood. But because, it seems, you are only interested in using Circumcision as justification for your rejection of God's Sabbath, you don't do it. I have, therefore we have different understandings.



I don't believe God sanctified and separated His Sabbath, and did so for man, "HID" His Sabbath from His Children. I have no reason to think this way. But regardless if God shared His Creation with Adam as I believe He did, or Hid His Creation from Adam, as you suggest, it really doesn't matter. You are I were given the Commandment. We have both had a voice telling us, in very compelling words, that we won't die if we reject God's Instructions and follow another's instruction. Abraham and Eve are "Examples" of how God feels about each choice. That is not speculation.




It seems you already understand, why are you still asking for more support from my belief?

Yes Abraham did not pick n choose which Commandments to keep.
yes God separated the 7th day.
yes the Sabbath was made for man, and Abraham was a man.
Yes Christ's day was seen by Abraham
.
yes Zachariah recognized Jesus.
Yes the Pharisees did not recognize Jesus.
yes it is my question, what laws do you feel where in the universal law that God gave to Abraham and all mankind. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm interested in biblical accuracy. I too am not interested in rejecting the scriptures. At the same time, I am also not interested in adding to the scriptures. I am interested in going with what the scriptures actually say and I think that at heart you are as well.
There used to be a user here on CC that was very into the idea that the King James Bible was inspired by God. if you questioned him on this, he would say that you were taking on the role of the serpent in the garden, asking Eve Did God really say? but such logic is faulty, as I'm sure most everyone could see, except for him.
when I said the really good part, I was thinking of the good part of the discussion. I wasn't thinking of the good part of the scripture.
I thought it did matter to you what commands were given to Abraham. As I understood what you were saying, they were Abraham's commands, then the levitical priesthood was added 430 years later, then they were removed, leaving the commands given to Abraham as what we have for us today. yes if God gives you commands you should follow them.
I think we should follow the faith of Abraham. I don't think we should follow all of the commands that Abraham had, since he was commanded to be physically circumsized.
Yes God did not make things up as he went along. It does look to me that he gave different commands at different times. I agree that I have to follow God's instructions like Abraham did. That is not the same as following the same commands that Abraham had.
That sounds right, that Abraham was circumcised in his heart from the beginning. I have studied circumcision. I believe that I do understand it the way Paul did.
You and I both given the Commandment not to do physical work on the Sabbath? to me, that is part of the law that we are not under.
True, God does not like to have his instructions disregarded. neither does God like having his instructions added too.
I believe I already explained why I was asking you to list the references, in biblical order, for the commands that you see in the universal law given to Abraham and all mankind. I think it will help the discussion. I don't think it would be difficult. How many references do you think it will be?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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That does seem to be important to God.

For example, at the fortelling of the birth of Samson:

Judges 13:15-16
Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "Please let us detain you and prepare a young goat for you." And the angel of the LORD said to Manoah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD." (For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.)
Wow I never saw that before!
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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="
Dan_473, post: 3638957, member: 190874"]yes it is my question, what laws do you feel where in the universal law that God gave to Abraham and all mankind. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm interested in biblical accuracy. I too am not interested in rejecting the scriptures. At the same time, I am also not interested in adding to the scriptures. I am interested in going with what the scriptures actually say and I think that at heart you are as well.
There used to be a user here on CC that was very into the idea that the King James Bible was inspired by God. if you questioned him on this, he would say that you were taking on the role of the serpent in the garden, asking Eve Did God really say? but such logic is faulty, as I'm sure most everyone could see, except for him.
when I said the really good part, I was thinking of the good part of the discussion. I wasn't thinking of the good part of the scripture.
I thought it did matter to you what commands were given to Abraham.
I have said many times that it didn't matter to me, or in my understanding, to the example this story was intended to promote. God gave Abraham instructions and Abraham kept them.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp, or acknowledge. Did God tell me to go sacrifice my son to Him? No! Does this somehow translate into a doctrine where I get to pick and choose which Commandments are worthy of my respect, and which are not?




As I understood what you were saying, they were Abraham's commands, then the levitical priesthood was added 430 years later, then they were removed, leaving the commands given to Abraham as what we have for us today. yes if God gives you commands you should follow them.
There was a Law "ADDED" to another LAW which was being transgressed some 430 years after Abraham. It was to be in place "Until Jesus came". You and Post imply that this Law included "Though Shall Love the Lord with all your heart, and That thou shall love your neighbor as thy self, and so on.

I don't consider, and the Scriptures don't imply, that these are "Works of the Law", rather, I believe they are of the "LAW of Faith" which Paul spoke about in Rom. 3.. The "works of the Law" or as Paul refers to them as "The Law of Works" are the "Works" given though Moses to the Levites for the remission of sins. These, of course, would only be in force until "After those days" when the Word would become Flesh. I believe there is, and have posted volumes of scriptures in both the new and the old testaments which suggest that Loving God and Loving our neighbor as our self, will never end as our instructions. That even in immortality we would honor God and each other with following these commandments and the definition placed on them in the Law and Prophets. Isaiah also said, in the Spirit of Christ, that some day "ALL" who worship God will respect His Commandments and Holy Days He created for man. This is not speculation.

However, the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" is most certainly a temporary Commandment, which neither Abraham, not you and I were ever instructed to partake. Given God's description of sacrifice VS. obedience it is evident that God is more interested in how we love him and how we Love others, than He is with sacrificial "works of a Temporary Priesthood. And there is a stark difference between how God refers to His Sabbath in the Word of God, and how He refers to animal sacrifice. It is not speculation to consider these truth when seeking the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness in order to do the Will of God which Jesus said is essential for Salvation. It is accepting EVERY Word of God, not just the ones which support Mainstream religious traditions which direct me to these conclusions.


I think we should follow the faith of Abraham. I don't think we should follow all of the commands that Abraham had, since he was commanded to be physically circumcised.
Abraham was already obedient by the time God gave him an outward sign of obedience. And as we continue to "Seek the Kingdom of God" we learn, as did Paul, that the intent behind Circumcision was the "Renewing of our mind" or the "circumcision of the heart". I can't continue to live as if God did not make this distinction.



Yes God did not make things up as he went along. It does look to me that he gave different commands at different times. I agree that I have to follow God's instructions like Abraham did. That is not the same as following the same commands that Abraham had.
That sounds right, that Abraham was circumcised in his heart from the beginning. I have studied circumcision. I believe that I do understand it the way Paul did.
You and I both given the Commandment not to do physical work on the Sabbath? to me, that is part of the law that we are not under.
I know the Sabbath is the reason for our disagreement. This discussion is all about the Sabbath of God. Do we honor Him by following it, or do we follow the Path of the religious masses by not following it? You use scriptures that can promote your choice to not follow. This of course, causes you to disregard a lot of scriptures from the Word which became Flesh, both as the Word and as the Man Jesus which suggest it is God's Will for us to "Remember His Sabbath, and to keep it Holy. It is Holy because the Word which became Flesh made it Holy. We find evidence that we are not to rely on cutting flesh off our private parts for salvation, we are also influenced by much evidence that we are no longer to kill animals and have a Levite Priest sprinkle blood on an alter so we can be considered righteous. But I find zero evidence that the Christ, as the Word, and as the Man Jesus, every took away the Sanctification, or the Holy Status He bestowed on this commandment.


We have prophesy that the Gentiles (Uncircumcised in flesh by definition) will be taken into God's Fold. We have prophesy regarding the end of animal sacrifice and the Priesthood service of the Sanctuary.

We also have Prophesy that Priests who come in God's Name will preach lies. We have Prophesy that a great religion will speak out against the most High God and will " His intention will be to change times established by law".

But nowhere do we have Prophesy that God eliminated, altered or changing His Sabbath. Nowhere.

Should I not consider these Biblical facts when "Seeking the Kingdom and His Righteousness? What if most people ignore these Biblical facts? Should that change my mind regarding Scripture? If you think it should, then you should read about Caleb.




True, God does not like to have his instructions disregarded.
neither does God like having his instructions added too.
Then don't disregard them Dan. Don't Add to them Dan.

I believe I already explained why I was asking you to list the references, in biblical order, for the commands that you see in the universal law given to Abraham and all mankind. I think it will help the discussion. I don't think it would be difficult. How many references do you think it will be?
The Bible is just a Book Dan. I can not prove it is true, or that God exists. I believe the evidence, but just like the existence of God, I can't prove it. I have "Faith" in Him, but if I had proof of His existence it wouldn't be Faith. And we are saved by Faith in Him according to His Word.

I don't know if what is written is true, but I know what is written. About His Sabbath, about Circumcision, and the Priesthood "works of the Law". I have posted volumes of scriptures which show how God feels about all 3 subjects. It is the Scriptures which have led me to the conclusions I have shared with you.

If you believe the scriptures build a different doctrine, then please, show them to me, make your case as to why my understanding is not in line with scriptures. If I am just posting scriptures which are exposing flaws on your doctrines, then maybe you would be wise to consider. How else would the Most High correct you. Are you so special you think He would come down to you in shining Light and treat you differently than He did Abraham?

How do you know He isn't telling you: " Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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But that is the same argument you make regarding the "LAW" that was ":ADDED" 430 years after Abraham. You say that because Paul says "Law" he must be speaking about every law that God ever gave His People. I argue that God has His Law, given to Abraham and Noah, and their Children, and that He "added" a Priesthood, given to the Levites that was compiled of "Works" performed for the remission of sin, "till the Seed should Come". A "Law of Works" that Abraham didn't have.

I have asked before, what was this "ADDED" Law "ADDED" to? What was being transgressed that prompted God to "ADD" a " Law of Works"?
To answer your last question as I understand it....the ADDED law are the WORKS. They were added to the COMMANDMENTS because people failed to keep them/transgressed them.
Abraham did not have/need the 'works of the law' because he kept the Commandments as God rquired. Scripture says Abe kept Gods Commandments.
I agree with you.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the Law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the Law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the Law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
(Galatians 3:15-22)

this says the Law was added to promises

it does not say "more laws were added to a law"

it does not say "priesthood and sacrificial blood covering was added to a law"

it does not say "God gave the inheritance to Abraham by a law"

it does not say "some laws came 430 years later"

it says scripture imprisoned everything under sin. how?

For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the Law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Romans 5:19-21)

this does not say "some laws came to increase the trespass"

this says sin entered the world through one man, and increased through the Law.

this does not say "priesthood and sacrificial blood covering came to increase the trespass"
this says "
the Law came in to increase the trespass"

and it says where sin increased - reigning in death by the Law, which is its power - grace abounded all the more, reigning through righteousness.

scripture says for Abraham's belief - not his works - God counted him righteous.

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
(Romans 6:14)
Or do you not know, brothers —for I am speaking to those who know the Law — that the Law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the Law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the Law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
(Romans 7:1-6)

this says the power of sin is broken.

this says we are not under law.

this says we are released from the Law.

this does not say "we are released from some of the Law"

this does not say "sin will only have a little bit of dominion of you since you are only under part of the Law"

this does not say "you are under grace + some of the Law but not all of it"

this does not say "certain parts of the Law are binding on dead men"

this does not say "you likewise died to some of the Law but not all of it"

this does not say "you died in Christ so you can belong to parts of the Law but not to other parts"

this does not say "we serve in the way of the written code"

this does not say "we serve in the new way of some of the written code but not all of it"


Now we know that what things soever the Law saith, it saith to them who are under the Law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
(Romans 3:19)
i must believe Him.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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To answer your last question as I understand it....the ADDED law are the WORKS. They were added to the COMMANDMENTS because people failed to keep them/transgressed them.
Abraham did not have/need the 'works of the law' because he kept the Commandments as God rquired. Scripture says Abe kept Gods Commandments.
I agree with you.
It is a fascinating thing to behold Beta. The Mainstream Religion of Christ's time had corrupted the Word of God so much for so long that It's Truth, when It came to them, was so foreign they couldn't accept it.

When Paul converted and started teaching and following the Law and Prophets, it was so foreign to them they thought he was a heretic.

They had worshipped the wrong way for so long, for so many centuries, that it was established "law" in their minds. Some knew the Truth, like Zechariahs, but most did not. It is the same today, as prophesied.

It is fascinating to see the prophesies given all those centuries ago come to life. There is truly no new thing under the sun.
 

gb9

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Jan 18, 2011
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It is a fascinating thing to behold Beta. The Mainstream Religion of Christ's time had corrupted the Word of God so much for so long that It's Truth, when It came to them, was so foreign they couldn't accept it.

When Paul converted and started teaching and following the Law and Prophets, it was so foreign to them they thought he was a heretic.

They had worshipped the wrong way for so long, for so many centuries, that it was established "law" in their minds. Some knew the Truth, like Zechariahs, but most did not. It is the same today, as prophesied.

It is fascinating to see the prophesies given all those centuries ago come to life. There is truly no new thing under the sun.
you asked me this on another thread, i'll answer you here.

here is one example of the teachings of men I spoke about- I was attending a church several years ago, nice people, pastor was a good guy, said God had healed him early In life, so he was heavy into divine healing. other than that o.k.

then, In fall 2012, he suddenly said " we as a church are going to pray and fast one day a week that Obama does not get re-elected."

so, that has 0 to do with God's word, so I was out.

so, there you go. unlike you, I answer questions. got a source yet??

you say the law is in different parts. language does not. source for your beliefs?
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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posthuman, post: 3639565, member: 170505"]
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the Law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the Law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the Law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
(Galatians 3:15-22)

this says the Law was added to promises


Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is the Promise, at least this is what the Bible says.. Abraham had God's Laws, he obeyed these laws, and god gave Him a promise. Do you preach God destroyed His Laws after Abraham died? Did God's Law disappear? Did the Promises and Covenant God made with Abraham cease to exist when Abraham died? Or was the promise also given to Abraham's children.

Ex. 2:
23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

So the promise to Abraham and to His Children is still here in Egypt. God said He remembered it. Would God also remember the Laws, Commandments and Statutes Abraham obeyed? Did God extend His Promise to the Children of Israel didn't He?

So God did have Laws before Moses, surely you don't deny that. And God gave these Laws, Statutes and commandments to Abrahams children so they too could partake of His Covenant with Abraham. Or do you deny this as well?

it does not say "
more laws were added to a law"

it does not say "priesthood and sacrificial blood covering was added to a law"


We know Abraham had God's Laws, and that God Remembered His Covenant with Abraham with the Children of Israel. You can argue which laws Abraham had, but you can't argue Abraham didn't have God's Laws.

This is Biblical Truth. If you reject this truth and replace it with a lie, then your entire doctrine is leavened.

Levi wasn't even born in Abrahams time. This is Biblical fact. So the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for cleansing and atonement wasn't even given to man until many years after Abraham died. It was "ADDED" to something, because of transgression of something.

Abraham's obedience (Faith) was the reason for his righteousness, not the Levitical cleansing "Law" given 430 years later.

I have asked you what it was added to and what was being transgressed, but you refuse to answer. These are legitimate questions. What happened to the Statutes, Laws and Commandments God gave to Abraham and his seed? Was the Priesthood "ADDED" to them?

it does not say "
God gave the inheritance to Abraham by a law"


You are omitting what Paul is speaking to in the first place.

"2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How was one made clean after the "ADDED" Sacrificial "works of the Law"? How was one made righteous? Was it not by taking a goat to the Levite Priest and have this priest sprinkle it's blood on the alter? Or do you also deny the existence of the Levitical Priesthood.

The Bible says Abraham was "Blessed" BECAUSE he obeyed God's Laws. Not because he partook of priesthood "Works of the Law" that didn't exist in his time. Had Abraham been born 430 yrs later then he would have been required to go to the Levitical Priest for justification of his sins so he could receive the promise. Do you also deny this truth?


He received the promise "Apart from the law" that was "ADDED" 430 years later that the Jews, who didn't believe Jesus was their Messiah, were still pushing on the Galatians.

The Biblical Truth is that Abraham had God's Laws and Commandments as part of his covenant with God. The Biblical truth is Abraham had God's Laws, but didn't have the Levitical "Works of the Law" for remission of sins. The Biblical truth is these Levitical "Works of the Law" which became necessary to receive the promise, were "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham had already received the promise. Did these Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" make Void the Promise God gave to Abraham because He obeyed?

God forbid.

Paul said a Law was ADDED to something. Paul said it was "ADDED" BECAUSE of transgression. Where there is no law, there is no transgression. This is also Biblical Fact. So it was "ADDED" to a Law that was being Transgressed 430 years after Abraham was blessed BECAUSE he followed God's Laws and Commandments.

The "Law of Works" for justification of sins were "ADDED" to an existing Law that was being transgressed 430 years after Abraham was given the Promise because he obeyed God's Laws. Just because you preach against this truth, doesn't make the truth a lie.

If you refuse to accept some Biblical truths, then your entire doctrine is leavened. The too is Biblical fact.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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I have said many times that it didn't matter to me, or in my understanding, to the example this story was intended to promote. God gave Abraham instructions and Abraham kept them.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to grasp, or acknowledge. Did God tell me to go sacrifice my son to Him? No! Does this somehow translate into a doctrine where I get to pick and choose which Commandments are worthy of my respect, and which are not?






There was a Law "ADDED" to another LAW which was being transgressed some 430 years after Abraham. It was to be in place "Until Jesus came". You and Post imply that this Law included "Though Shall Love the Lord with all your heart, and That thou shall love your neighbor as thy self, and so on.

I don't consider, and the Scriptures don't imply, that these are "Works of the Law", rather, I believe they are of the "LAW of Faith" which Paul spoke about in Rom. 3.. The "works of the Law" or as Paul refers to them as "The Law of Works" are the "Works" given though Moses to the Levites for the remission of sins. These, of course, would only be in force until "After those days" when the Word would become Flesh. I believe there is, and have posted volumes of scriptures in both the new and the old testaments which suggest that Loving God and Loving our neighbor as our self, will never end as our instructions. That even in immortality we would honor God and each other with following these commandments and the definition placed on them in the Law and Prophets. Isaiah also said, in the Spirit of Christ, that some day "ALL" who worship God will respect His Commandments and Holy Days He created for man. This is not speculation.

However, the Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" is most certainly a temporary Commandment, which neither Abraham, not you and I were ever instructed to partake. Given God's description of sacrifice VS. obedience it is evident that God is more interested in how we love him and how we Love others, than He is with sacrificial "works of a Temporary Priesthood. And there is a stark difference between how God refers to His Sabbath in the Word of God, and how He refers to animal sacrifice. It is not speculation to consider these truth when seeking the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness in order to do the Will of God which Jesus said is essential for Salvation. It is accepting EVERY Word of God, not just the ones which support Mainstream religious traditions which direct me to these conclusions.




Abraham was already obedient by the time God gave him an outward sign of obedience. And as we continue to "Seek the Kingdom of God" we learn, as did Paul, that the intent behind Circumcision was the "Renewing of our mind" or the "circumcision of the heart". I can't continue to live as if God did not make this distinction.





I know the Sabbath is the reason for our disagreement. This discussion is all about the Sabbath of God. Do we honor Him by following it, or do we follow the Path of the religious masses by not following it? You use scriptures that can promote your choice to not follow. This of course, causes you to disregard a lot of scriptures from the Word which became Flesh, both as the Word and as the Man Jesus which suggest it is God's Will for us to "Remember His Sabbath, and to keep it Holy. It is Holy because the Word which became Flesh made it Holy. We find evidence that we are not to rely on cutting flesh off our private parts for salvation, we are also influenced by much evidence that we are no longer to kill animals and have a Levite Priest sprinkle blood on an alter so we can be considered righteous. But I find zero evidence that the Christ, as the Word, and as the Man Jesus, every took away the Sanctification, or the Holy Status He bestowed on this commandment.


We have prophesy that the Gentiles (Uncircumcised in flesh by definition) will be taken into God's Fold. We have prophesy regarding the end of animal sacrifice and the Priesthood service of the Sanctuary.

We also have Prophesy that Priests who come in God's Name will preach lies. We have Prophesy that a great religion will speak out against the most High God and will " His intention will be to change times established by law".

But nowhere do we have Prophesy that God eliminated, altered or changing His Sabbath. Nowhere.

Should I not consider these Biblical facts when "Seeking the Kingdom and His Righteousness? What if most people ignore these Biblical facts? Should that change my mind regarding Scripture? If you think it should, then you should read about Caleb.






Then don't disregard them Dan. Don't Add to them Dan.



The Bible is just a Book Dan. I can not prove it is true, or that God exists. I believe the evidence, but just like the existence of God, I can't prove it. I have "Faith" in Him, but if I had proof of His existence it wouldn't be Faith. And we are saved by Faith in Him according to His Word.

I don't know if what is written is true, but I know what is written. About His Sabbath, about Circumcision, and the Priesthood "works of the Law". I have posted volumes of scriptures which show how God feels about all 3 subjects. It is the Scriptures which have led me to the conclusions I have shared with you.

If you believe the scriptures build a different doctrine, then please, show them to me, make your case as to why my understanding is not in line with scriptures. If I am just posting scriptures which are exposing flaws on your doctrines, then maybe you would be wise to consider. How else would the Most High correct you. Are you so special you think He would come down to you in shining Light and treat you differently than He did Abraham?

How do you know He isn't telling you: " Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"
I thought you were using the story of Abraham preparing to sacrifice Isaac to show that Abraham kept the Passover.


if I understand you right, you believe that there are two sets of laws. there's the law that Abraham kept and there's the levitical priesthood law. that's what I thought you were talking about here:


And God hinted of the abolition of the Priesthood throughout the Bible for those interested in seeking the truth. But never His universal Law given to Abraham and all mankind.
I assume that's what you are calling the law of faith, that is the laws that Abraham kept.
now if there were a set of laws in place at the time of Abraham and then there was another set of laws added, but that second set was removed, then it sounds like the first set is what would still be in place today. yes?
so if that first set is still in place today then it makes sense to me that you would be keeping it. yes?
if you are keeping it then you would know what Commandments were in it. yes? then it shouldn't be hard to talk about , give a list, of what Commandments are in it.
then I can't figure out why you say sometimes that you don't know or don't care what Commandments Abraham kept, if indeed you say that. would they not be the same Commandments that you keep today?
if I bring up instructions about loving God or our neighbor, it is to help Define what you believe to be the levitical priesthood code. if one says that the levitical laws are those that start about Exodus 16 and continued through the end of Deuteronomy, and if one says that those levitical laws were abolished, then that would include the instructions to love God and love your neighbor in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
I understand that there is a physical circumcision and a spiritual circumcision of the heart. It follows then, that they would also be a physical keeping of the Sabbath and a spiritual keeping of it. and just as we do not physically circumcise, it follows that we don't physically observe the Sabbath. that's how it looks to me.
our discussion is not only about the Sabbath, but about which laws we keep today.
I do remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. That is different from refraining from doing physical work on the Sabbath, just as physical circumcision is different from circumcision of the heart.
and I agree we don't want to add to the scriptures.
I have no idea why you say that the "Bible is just a book, Dan."
"I don't know if what is written is true..."
why on Earth would you say this?
my case about the law is very simple. the law points to a lifestyle. but the law can never bring a person to that lifestyle. only God's Spirit working in us can produce that lifestyle in us. that is what's meant here
Galatians 5: 16. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh. 17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
it's kind of like pouring concrete. there needs to be a form at first, usually made out of wood. but once the concrete hardens, The Form isn't needed to help the concrete set.
and yes I'm always interested in learning new things about God, the Bible, and the body of Christ!
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Studyman,

the reason I keep asking you to list the laws that Abraham kept, or that you keep if they are different, is this:

people don't generally give up a particular view as long as it works for them. if a person feels that they can please God by keeping a particular set of rules, then they almost certainly will continue to do that.

I think if you will attempt to list the Commandments that Abraham or yourself keep, it will become obvious that it is futile to try to come up with such a list. at least that's my guess. but I won't actually know until you actually list them.


why are you reluctant to list them? If you honestly feel that they are the rules that all Christians should be doing in order to please God, wouldn't you be eager to list them? and to talk about them?

To talk about them as you walk through the day or walk through the forums here? to have them nailed to your door, tied to your head?
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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Studyman,

it's not like you have to reinvent the wheel. is there a website that has the list of rules on it? assuming you're not the only person who thinks like this?

I have looked around myself but I couldn't find anything. It seems that many people are willing to talk about the abstract Theory of rule keeping, but no one wants to get down to specifics.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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Gen. 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This is the Promise, at least this is what the Bible says..
Try Genesis 12.

There's no "if..then" in the text.

Scripture does not lie when it says inheritance is by promise, not law, and righteousness by faith, not works. When it says Hagar is the covenant of Sinai.

He says salvation is by grace through faith, that He shows Himself merciful to the one who is merciful, and I believe Him.

He says don't let anyone judge you over shadows, and i believe Him. It's not about sabbath. You don't know what I keep or don't keep, and you constantly lie about what I say and believe. It's about believing God when He says don't let anyone judge you over these things, and reject anyone who brings another gospel but the one you received.