Not By Works
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MAN....lose your fanciful scenarios and "What if" fantasy land rigmarole......what if orange pigs could fly to the moon....see how ridiculous "what if" is.....hey I got one....
What if you actually acknowledged Jesus by the faith<---the faith actually described in the bible.....NOW that would be something....highly unlikely though
What if you actually acknowledged Jesus by the faith<---the faith actually described in the bible.....NOW that would be something....highly unlikely though
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Our choice to send ourselves to hell is our right. God's will is one thing, but our will is another and it does not always agree with God's will. If you take that will away with some whimsical statement, you are telling me that God will force a man to live with Him eternally. I don't think so.
Have you been reading JPT's verses from the bible that true believers can be lost and dead to Jesus if certain conditions do not exist? Read them for your edification.
Read especially post #66775, where he explains to star how a scripture that looks like OSAS, but it isn't, because she left out 1 word and a scripture before that in order for Jesus to secure you, you have to follow him.
So what does it mean to follow him? The sheep follow Jesus and what he tells them to do, they do it.
They trust their shepherd, because if they don't follow him, they will get eaten up by a lion or wolf or some other animal and lose their life.
It is the perfect analogy. Believe in Jesus and follow him, and you will have eternal life. We follow Jesus or we will be eaten up by the world and lose our eternal lives.
Read all of JPT's posts, you will learn a lot.
Have you been reading JPT's verses from the bible that true believers can be lost and dead to Jesus if certain conditions do not exist? Read them for your edification.
Read especially post #66775, where he explains to star how a scripture that looks like OSAS, but it isn't, because she left out 1 word and a scripture before that in order for Jesus to secure you, you have to follow him.
So what does it mean to follow him? The sheep follow Jesus and what he tells them to do, they do it.
They trust their shepherd, because if they don't follow him, they will get eaten up by a lion or wolf or some other animal and lose their life.
It is the perfect analogy. Believe in Jesus and follow him, and you will have eternal life. We follow Jesus or we will be eaten up by the world and lose our eternal lives.
Read all of JPT's posts, you will learn a lot.
I said the same as well a few posts back.
OSAS always saved is not a doctrine.
It seems that those who believe in ES are greasy gracers pushing OSAS doctrine, that we push a doctrine that all you have to do is say the sinners prayer and all is well, now go off and do what you want.
My response below
No response yet as to words of Jesus promised not to lose any of those given to him by the Father.
John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 18:8-9
8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”
Yet what I find interesting, if we believe in ES which those who disagree with call it a OSAS doctrine from hell, then we preach a doctrine from hell.
That being the case whether said or not by inference us greasy gracers are not obedient, are lost.
And we know where the lost are going.
Afterall they make the judgement and place themselves on the judgement seat of Jesus.
A post was made earlier "We do not honour OSAS but I honour you as a brother in Jesus"
Yet a brother as they interpret as preaching OSAS even though they are not but preaching ES are preaching a doctrine from hell.
That being the case how can they be a brother?
OSAS always saved is not a doctrine.
It seems that those who believe in ES are greasy gracers pushing OSAS doctrine, that we push a doctrine that all you have to do is say the sinners prayer and all is well, now go off and do what you want.
My response below
No response yet as to words of Jesus promised not to lose any of those given to him by the Father.
John 6:37-39
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 18:8-9
8 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”
Yet what I find interesting, if we believe in ES which those who disagree with call it a OSAS doctrine from hell, then we preach a doctrine from hell.
That being the case whether said or not by inference us greasy gracers are not obedient, are lost.
And we know where the lost are going.
Afterall they make the judgement and place themselves on the judgement seat of Jesus.
A post was made earlier "We do not honour OSAS but I honour you as a brother in Jesus"
Yet a brother as they interpret as preaching OSAS even though they are not but preaching ES are preaching a doctrine from hell.
That being the case how can they be a brother?
Yet we find the sheep can go astray.
But what does Jesus say about the sheep that goes astray?
Yes believe in Jesus gives eternal salvation which leads to following him.
But when one goes astray what does Jesus do?
You have often said that we can interpret scripture differently and that's ok, we are still brothers in Jesus.
Yet you are very quick to judge others that do not believe what you do and they lose their eternal lives.
If you genuinely believe that then you have no right to call them brothers in Christ.
Because they are not, afterall Jesus will raise them that the Father had given him on the last day.
But what does Jesus say about the sheep that goes astray?
Yes believe in Jesus gives eternal salvation which leads to following him.
But when one goes astray what does Jesus do?
You have often said that we can interpret scripture differently and that's ok, we are still brothers in Jesus.
Yet you are very quick to judge others that do not believe what you do and they lose their eternal lives.
If you genuinely believe that then you have no right to call them brothers in Christ.
Because they are not, afterall Jesus will raise them that the Father had given him on the last day.
My view....
Eternal security is ONCE saved always saved <---they both equate to the same result in Christ and just a different way of saying it....another thing...NO such thing as the coined phrase "greasy grace" GRACE is GRACE is GRACE.....and the Grace of God boils down to a POSITION a believer is placed into at the moment of belief....it also equates to a given position that is unattainable by man or man's effort <---Saved, justified, sanctified in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise freely by faith into the finished work of Christ
Eternal security is ONCE saved always saved <---they both equate to the same result in Christ and just a different way of saying it....another thing...NO such thing as the coined phrase "greasy grace" GRACE is GRACE is GRACE.....and the Grace of God boils down to a POSITION a believer is placed into at the moment of belief....it also equates to a given position that is unattainable by man or man's effort <---Saved, justified, sanctified in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise freely by faith into the finished work of Christ
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How many of your sins were PAID FOR IN FULL on the CROSS?
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CROSS,
Confessing your SINS, is JUST what your NEW NATURE of your Born Again Human Spirit WILL DO AFTER YOU ARE SAVED.
Romans 5:9 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
1 Corinthians 6:20 (HCSB)
20 for you were bought at a price {the Bride price was a Holy Blood Sacrifice}. Therefore glorify God in your body.
Hebrews 9:22 (HCSB)
22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
1 Peter 1:19 (HCSB)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.
Revelation 1:5 (HCSB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood,
Romans 8:27-30 (HCSB)
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
2 Timothy 1:7-9 (NJB)
7 God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but the Spirit of power and love and self-control.
8 So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to our Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but share in my hardships for the sake of the gospel, relying on the power of God
9 who has saved us and called us to be holy—not because of anything we ourselves had done but for his own purpose and by his own grace. This grace had already been granted to us, in Christ Jesus, before the beginning of time,
And many do not want to believe in PREDESTINATION. Humbling isn't it!
Isaiah 46:11 (NCV)
11 I am calling a man from the east to carry out my plan; he will come like a hawk from a country far away.
I will make what I have said come true; I will do what I have planned.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CROSS,
Confessing your SINS, is JUST what your NEW NATURE of your Born Again Human Spirit WILL DO AFTER YOU ARE SAVED.
Romans 5:9 (HCSB)
9 Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
1 Corinthians 6:20 (HCSB)
20 for you were bought at a price {the Bride price was a Holy Blood Sacrifice}. Therefore glorify God in your body.
Hebrews 9:22 (HCSB)
22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
1 Peter 1:19 (HCSB)
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish.
Revelation 1:5 (HCSB)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has set us free from our sins by His blood,
Romans 8:27-30 (HCSB)
27 And He who searches the hearts knows the Spirit’s mind-set, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God: those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those He predestined, He also called; and those He called, He also justified; and those He justified, He also glorified.
2 Timothy 1:7-9 (NJB)
7 God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but the Spirit of power and love and self-control.
8 So you are never to be ashamed of witnessing to our Lord, or ashamed of me for being his prisoner; but share in my hardships for the sake of the gospel, relying on the power of God
9 who has saved us and called us to be holy—not because of anything we ourselves had done but for his own purpose and by his own grace. This grace had already been granted to us, in Christ Jesus, before the beginning of time,
And many do not want to believe in PREDESTINATION. Humbling isn't it!
Isaiah 46:11 (NCV)
11 I am calling a man from the east to carry out my plan; he will come like a hawk from a country far away.
I will make what I have said come true; I will do what I have planned.
You mean the faith actually described by your little band of Christians don't you? The bible describes faith in many ways. It also describes what dead faith is. And the bible also elevates charity above faith.
Are you willing to acknowledge Jesus by doing acts of charity? That seems like a higher reality than just acknowledging that Jesus exists and is the Savior. Let's actually acknowledge him AND follow him and do what he says, how bout that.
Highly unlikely though.
Under this condition, you would have the opportunity to forgive this man in the after life. If a man takes you and your families life by cold blooded murder and you die instantly, you will have a chance to forgive that man to the Fathers face in the after life.
Many possible exceptions. If you are a mobster and you are in the business to kill, then all is off. If you are a true Christian and you have forgiven men their sins against you all your life, then you will be given the chance to forgive in the after life. And everything in between will be judged by God, who is a perfect judge.
So his saying will hold. If you forgive all, God will forgive all. If you do not forgive all, God will not forgive all. Which means you will not have Eternal life.
Are you willing to acknowledge Jesus by doing acts of charity? That seems like a higher reality than just acknowledging that Jesus exists and is the Savior. Let's actually acknowledge him AND follow him and do what he says, how bout that.
Highly unlikely though.
Under this condition, you would have the opportunity to forgive this man in the after life. If a man takes you and your families life by cold blooded murder and you die instantly, you will have a chance to forgive that man to the Fathers face in the after life.
Many possible exceptions. If you are a mobster and you are in the business to kill, then all is off. If you are a true Christian and you have forgiven men their sins against you all your life, then you will be given the chance to forgive in the after life. And everything in between will be judged by God, who is a perfect judge.
So his saying will hold. If you forgive all, God will forgive all. If you do not forgive all, God will not forgive all. Which means you will not have Eternal life.
If you look at the title of my picture, you'll see the name of it is "fruity dude".. Hi Ben.
Just to clarify, you did not call me a greasy gracer.
However there are people who have said that if one believes in ES they are promoting greasy grace.
If memory serves me I said something along the lines of "People who disagree with OSAS assume that those who believe in ES actually are promoting OSAS"
So they believe that OSAS is to say "Just say the sinners prayer and that's it, sin all you want and it's forgiven"
I addressed that a few pages back.
The doctrine of OSAS as perceived by those that we can do what we want is not biblical.
Using Gods grace as a license to sin is abhorrent, always will be and Paul addressed it through Romans 5-6
If we come across people who believe that then we must address that.
If it becomes apparent they have no desire to change then we leave them to it.
However if they have a desire to change but do not know how to and need help, discipleship, healing, prayer we must endeavour to walk with them.
The church is not for the perfect, it's for imperfect.
It's for trust those who want to know Jesus and be like Jesus.
The church is a hospital for sinners and not a museum for saints.
ES is where God promises to keep those he has given to Jesus and come to Jesus.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Just to clarify, you did not call me a greasy gracer.
However there are people who have said that if one believes in ES they are promoting greasy grace.
If memory serves me I said something along the lines of "People who disagree with OSAS assume that those who believe in ES actually are promoting OSAS"
So they believe that OSAS is to say "Just say the sinners prayer and that's it, sin all you want and it's forgiven"
I addressed that a few pages back.
The doctrine of OSAS as perceived by those that we can do what we want is not biblical.
Using Gods grace as a license to sin is abhorrent, always will be and Paul addressed it through Romans 5-6
If we come across people who believe that then we must address that.
If it becomes apparent they have no desire to change then we leave them to it.
However if they have a desire to change but do not know how to and need help, discipleship, healing, prayer we must endeavour to walk with them.
The church is not for the perfect, it's for imperfect.
It's for trust those who want to know Jesus and be like Jesus.
The church is a hospital for sinners and not a museum for saints.
ES is where God promises to keep those he has given to Jesus and come to Jesus.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Yes I agree with you.
The point I was trying to make is that opponents never ever refer to ES.
And if they do it's OSAS doctrine that those who believe in ES promote OSAS.
That being the case we are saying OSAS is a license to sin.
They go to extreme places, like "You can murder or commit adultery and still be saved"
Yet they neglect adultery in the heart and murder in the heart.
So my point is that if OSAS is taught as a license to sin, then it's a false doctrine and do not assume that those of us who believe in ES promote that.
So yes ES is OSAS because those the Father has given him he will never lose.
It is he who saves us.
The point I was trying to make is that opponents never ever refer to ES.
And if they do it's OSAS doctrine that those who believe in ES promote OSAS.
That being the case we are saying OSAS is a license to sin.
They go to extreme places, like "You can murder or commit adultery and still be saved"
Yet they neglect adultery in the heart and murder in the heart.
So my point is that if OSAS is taught as a license to sin, then it's a false doctrine and do not assume that those of us who believe in ES promote that.
So yes ES is OSAS because those the Father has given him he will never lose.
It is he who saves us.
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