The Rapture

[garee]

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last trump indicates the last day, the day of Judgment, the unbeleiver is cast into the lake of fire as the same day of the day of final resurrection for those for those who will not come into judgment or condemnation (no double jeopardy). all rolled into one event.

Six times in the book of John the phrase "last day" is used to indicate both

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[so-jesus-e-deus]

Hello so-jesus-e-deus

That would be a mid-tribulation gathering of the church which can't be true, because much of God's wrath will have already taken place by the middle of the seven years and which believers are not appointed to suffer, ergo, believers must be gathered prior to the seventieth week.

Hello Ahwatukee,

The trumpets are not the judgment of the Eternal One on the world, but a warning to the Church of Christ. We must not forget that trumpet is a symbol of warning.
The vials is that they are His judgment. These will only happen after the rapture of the Church in the second half of the seventieth week.

 

[tanakh]

"blew his trumpet" is NOT in the Greek text. That was added by some translators gratuitously.

CRITICAL TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

RECEIVED TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

KING JAMES BIBLE
And the seventh angel sounded

AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

ENGLISH REVISED VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

So neither "last" nor "trumpet" is in the actual text. Which means that the whole idea of a last trumpet being mentioned in Revelation is BOGUS.

Firstly I don't understand Greek either ancient or modern

Secondly what do you suggest the Angel/s sounded or blew? their noses?, trombones?,tubas?, or saxophones perhaps. Your answer is a typical Dispensationalist reply. You ignore the thread of the argument.In fact I am surprised you answered at all which is another tactic I've noticed on site.

Instead of following cultic doctrines try abandoning the use of eisegeses for once and seriously consider
other peoples views. By the way I was also trapped in the same brain washing system as yourself but eventually
saw through the deception of Darbyism.

 

[Endoscopy]

"blew his trumpet" is NOT in the Greek text. That was added by some translators gratuitously.

CRITICAL TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

RECEIVED TEXT
Καὶ ὁ ἕβδομος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν (And the seventh angel sounded)

KING JAMES Bible u I7
And the seventh angel sounded

AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

ENGLISH REVISED VERSION
And the seventh angel sounded

So neither "last" nor "trumpet" is in the actual text. Which means that the whole idea of a last trumpet being mentioned in Revelation is BOGUS.

You are quibbling. In English when a specific number of items are numbered it is normal usage to refer to the highest numbered one as last. So what if that word is not used in the text. The meaning is quite clear. We use theological words many times to describe events in the Bible. Rapture is one of these. Therefore according to your view we should never use that word. Live with the reality of the English language. If you want to get an understanding of the difficulty of translating Greek into English look up Greek verb tenses. None of them correlate into the English ones. For instance there is one that starts at present and goes continuously into the future. None are like our past, present, and future.

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum
Please explain why all translations use the English word trumpet. The Greek language text implied an instrument being used. Historically a version of trumpets were used to get people's attention. They were blown to prepare the audience for something going back in ancient history. That is the context in Revelation. Something is sounded. It is extremely likely a trumpet would be used with their piercing loud sound. Methinks you just want to quibble over minusha.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ahwatukee,

The trumpets are not the judgment of the Eternal One on the world, but a warning to the Church of Christ. We must not forget that trumpet is a symbol of warning. The vials is that they are His judgment. These will only happen after the rapture of the Church in the second half of the seventieth week.

Good day!

Do you see the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" anywhere in the narrative so-jesus? No, you don't. The reason is because the church is no longer on the earth after the end of chapter 3. From chapters 1 thru 3 the word "church" is used 19 times and then abruptly disappears from Revelation until it is used again in Rev.22:16. As I said and scripture supports, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and including the plagues that the two witnesses bring, is how God is going to carry out His wrath. Don't make the same mistake that many do by the use of the words "plague" and "judgments." These are just different designations for the wrath of God. People make a distinction between those words and the word "wrath" in order to support a pre-wrath, mid and post gathering of the church. They do this so that they can designate the seals as not being apart of God's wrath, but only tribulation so that they can put the church that time period and this because they adopted that false teaching and are now protecting it tooth and nail. The scripture below reveals that the bowl judgments are not the wrath of God:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. " Rev.15:1

Since the bowl judgments are said to be "last" completing God's wrath, then there would have to be wrath that comes before the bowls, which would be the seals and the trumpets. If something is last, then something has to be first, or come before. With just the seals alone, a fourth of the earths population is killed, which based on todays population would be over 1.7 billion fatalities as a result of the first four seals. And more importantly, Jesus is the One opening the seals, which leads in to the trumpets and is followed by the bowl judgments and therefore is the One responsible for the fatalities and destruction.

The trumpets are not a symbol of warning, but are God's wrath. For over one third of the earths population will be killed because of them. When combining the fatalities of the seals and the trumpets, there will be well over half the earths population killed. That's one heck of a warning. And trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are referred to as woes and that because of their severity.

My suggestion to you, is to stop just repeating the false teachings that you have read and heard and do your own studies.

 

[abcdef]

I stand on what is stated in Daniel 12.

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.

Brother Endo, Dan 12,

Those who shine are Israelites wild and natural branches who preach the gospel kingdom. Calling on souls to repent and be baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Act 2:38. Their reward is to have the Holy Spirit within them for eternity.

4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.

This refers to the ministry of Jesus, His death, resurrection, and the coming of the gospel kingdom on Pentecost. These things were not revealed until after His resurrection Rom 16:25-26, 1 Cor 2:7-10.

--

Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Please explain to me how you can say the book of Daniel is not closed considering these verses.

You must consider the context. Dan 12:5-7 tells EXACTLY how long it will be until the time of the end (when these things will be understood, implied).

3 1/2 times until all these things are finished, and the power of the holy people is scattered v. 7.

The power of the holy people was scattered in 70 ad.

So from Babylon until 70 ad was the first 3 1/2 times.

This would make the time AFTER the first 3 1/2 times, the last 3 1/2 times. Which was from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

The Revelation shows Jesus taking the scroll/book, that is mentioned in Dan. 12:4, and opening it with John in 96 ad approx.

So after the first 3 1/2 times is over in 70 ad and the power of the holy people is scattered, Jesus opens the scroll and reveals the contents of the book that was sealed in Daniel.

It centers on the natural branches after the rejection of Jesus and the gospel kingdom. The times of the gentiles, the time when the natural branches were persecuted by the Roman iron dragon beast nation. 70 ad through 1967

_____

When you say the time of the end, in the Daniel 12 context, that is the time that began after 70 ad.

-----

Please remember that there are many "ages" that even overlap each other.

The age before the Law. The Law age. The end of the Law age.

The age of sacrifice before the tabernacle. The age of the tabernacle.

The temple ages, 1st, 2nd (End of the temple age/world Matt 24:3, 70 ad.)

The time before the kingdom age. The coming of the kingdom on earth age Pentecost. The end of the kingdom on earth age.

So when we talk about the "end", of the age, it helps to be specific about which age it is the end of.

In the case of Daniel 12, it is referring to the time after the "scattering", the second 3 1/2 times, as the last days, the times of the gentiles, ending when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

---

The 7 times are not years, they are the same time period as the statue in Daniel 2. Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem, ending the rule of the gentile nations over Israel. (No gaps in the statue time line of Daniel 2)

Go to biblegateway.com and look them up for yourself. You can change the translation from one to another and see if any translation says it differently. I made my previous statement based on these verses which for some reason you reject them.

Again, what verse, part, of Daniel don't you understand? If you say that it cannot be understood, then you must not understand it. What in the book of Daniel don't you understand?

The end will comecome after the third temple is built

So, no chance that Jesus will come before that time? Jesus can't come until the temple is rebuilt? The Antichrist cannot come until the temple is rebuilt?

Do men have control over God and Jesus, and when the resurrection will happen? By just not rebuilding the temple? Or building it?

We are His temple now. The temple curtain was torn from top to bottom and will NEVER be reunited. The building of another temple is vanity.

The presence of Jesus God will not be there, and therefor it cannot be defiled. It would be like any other pagan temple built by unbelievers.

and Jesus returns with the whole world watching not just Jerusalem as some try to say.

Will we see His face? No one can see His face and live, Ex 33:20. (Maybe he will wear a paper bag over his head)

Also he will be on the throne in Jerusalem as stated in Isaiah.

Jesus is on the eternal throne of David right now in the heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22-24, 22.

He is coming to take us home to be with Him. But there will be no planet earth after that except fire Rev 20:9.

Since the third temple has to be built on the excavated site of the first two with the Gihon Springs under it providing water to purify the priests so they can do priestly duties.

Pre-trib theory requires that everything be exactly as it was in 70 ad in order for that theory to come true. But the events that are expected to happen have already happened in the 70 ad time period.

The AoD was one reason that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad. Daniel 9:24-27.

And the ministry of Jesus that began at the beginning of the 69th week cannot be removed from the context of the AoD and the coming of the people of the prince to destroy Jerusalem, which happened in the 70 ad time period.

 

[garee]

Addendum
Please explain why all translations use the English word trumpet. The Greek language text implied an instrument being used. Historically a version of trumpets were used to get people's attention. They were blown to prepare the audience for something going back in ancient history. That is the context in Revelation. Something is sounded. It is extremely likely a trumpet would be used with their piercing loud sound. Methinks you just want to quibble over minusha.

Trumpets are used in parables to signify the word of God ,

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1: 10

The whole book is signified hiding the spiritual meaning from the lost . The sound of many waters also signifies the word of God. He use many metaphors as hidden manna.

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endo, Dan 12,

Those who shine are Israelites wild and natural branches who preach the gospel kingdom. Calling on souls to repent and be baptized to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Act 2:38. Their reward is to have the Holy Spirit within them for eternity.




This refers to the ministry of Jesus, His death, resurrection, and the coming of the gospel kingdom on Pentecost. These things were not revealed until after His resurrection Rom 16:25-26, 1 Cor 2:7-10.

--

Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.



You must consider the context. Dan 12:5-7 tells EXACTLY how long it will be until the time of the end (when these things will be understood, implied).

3 1/2 times until all these things are finished, and the power of the holy people is scattered v. 7.

The power of the holy people was scattered in 70 ad.

So from Babylon until 70 ad was the first 3 1/2 times.

This would make the time AFTER the first 3 1/2 times, the last 3 1/2 times. Which was from 70 ad until 1967 when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

The Revelation shows Jesus taking the scroll/book, that is mentioned in Dan. 12:4, and opening it with John in 96 ad approx.

So after the first 3 1/2 times is over in 70 ad and the power of the holy people is scattered, Jesus opens the scroll and reveals the contents of the book that was sealed in Daniel.

It centers on the natural branches after the rejection of Jesus and the gospel kingdom. The times of the gentiles, the time when the natural branches were persecuted by the Roman iron dragon beast nation. 70 ad through 1967

_____

When you say the time of the end, in the Daniel 12 context, that is the time that began after 70 ad.

-----

Please remember that there are many "ages" that even overlap each other.

The age before the Law. The Law age. The end of the Law age.

The age of sacrifice before the tabernacle. The age of the tabernacle.

The temple ages, 1st, 2nd (End of the temple age/world Matt 24:3, 70 ad.)

The time before the kingdom age. The coming of the kingdom on earth age Pentecost. The end of the kingdom on earth age.

So when we talk about the "end", of the age, it helps to be specific about which age it is the end of.

In the case of Daniel 12, it is referring to the time after the "scattering", the second 3 1/2 times, as the last days, the times of the gentiles, ending when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

---

The 7 times are not years, they are the same time period as the statue in Daniel 2. Babylon until Israel is restored to Jerusalem, ending the rule of the gentile nations over Israel. (No gaps in the statue time line of Daniel 2)




Again, what verse, part, of Daniel don't you understand? If you say that it cannot be understood, then you must not understand it. What in the book of Daniel don't you understand?




So, no chance that Jesus will come before that time? Jesus can't come until the temple is rebuilt? The Antichrist cannot come until the temple is rebuilt?

Do men have control over God and Jesus, and when the resurrection will happen? By just not rebuilding the temple? Or building it?

We are His temple now. The temple curtain was torn from top to bottom and will NEVER be reunited. The building of another temple is vanity.

The presence of Jesus God will not be there, and therefor it cannot be defiled. It would be like any other pagan temple built by unbelievers.




Will we see His face? No one can see His face and live, Ex 33:20. (Maybe he will wear a paper bag over his head)




Jesus is on the eternal throne of David right now in the heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22-24, 22.

He is coming to take us home to be with Him. But there will be no planet earth after that except fire Rev 20:9.




Pre-trib theory requires that everything be exactly as it was in 70 ad in order for that theory to come true. But the events that are expected to happen have already happened in the 70 ad time period.

The AoD was one reason that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad. Daniel 9:24-27.

And the ministry of Jesus that began at the beginning of the 69th week cannot be removed from the context of the AoD and the coming of the people of the prince to destroy Jerusalem, which happened in the 70 ad time period.

I totally reject that pretorist view of eschatology. Primarily because of a quote of Jesus claiming the whole world not just Jerusalem will see him come along with angels bringing the Christians out of the earth. Trying to claim that happened in 70AD is ludicrous. When were all Christians raptured?? Also immediately after that God pours out His wrath on earth destroying 1/3 of all the life. If not stopped all life would be destroyed. When did this happen?? ALL EARTH NOT JUST JERUSALEM!!!

 

[Endoscopy]

Trumpets are used in parables to signify the word of God ,

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1: 10

The whole book is signified hiding the spiritual meaning from the lost . The sound of many waters also signifies the word of God. He use many metaphors as hidden manna.

As for the trumpet I was pointing out a problem translating from Greek to English. If you want to get confused even more look up Greek verb tenses. English has nothing equivalent. One tense is present going continuously into the future. English has past, present, and future and Greek has nothing equivalent.

 

[abcdef]

I totally reject that pretorist view of eschatology. Primarily because of a quote of Jesus claiming the whole world not just Jerusalem will see him come along with angels bringing the Christians out of the earth. Trying to claim that happened in 70AD is ludicrous. When were all Christians raptured?? Also immediately after that God pours out His wrath on earth destroying 1/3 of all the life. If not stopped all life would be destroyed. When did this happen?? ALL EARTH NOT JUST JERUSALEM!!!

Brother Endo,

Nice try at changing the subject from the book of Daniel being open and understood, to various other topics, and trying to put me in a box with teachings that I do not believe. If you have been reading and understanding my posts you would know that I am not a preterist.

Do you understand the book of Daniel or not?

 

[tanakh]

I totally reject that pretorist view of eschatology. Primarily because of a quote of Jesus claiming the whole world not just Jerusalem will see him come along with angels bringing the Christians out of the earth. Trying to claim that happened in 70AD is ludicrous. When were all Christians raptured?? Also immediately after that God pours out His wrath on earth destroying 1/3 of all the life. If not stopped all life would be destroyed. When did this happen?? ALL EARTH NOT JUST JERUSALEM!!!

The problem with Preterists is that they have only got it partly right. They are right in saying that the destruction of Jerusalem was
a judgement from God and marked the end of the OT era. Jesus predicted it and warned the Jewish leadership and his Disciples that
it would happen in the same way the Prophets warned of the destruction of Jerusalem and exile to Babylon in their day. Clouds are used in the Bible as a symbol of Gods presence and judgement among other things. An example of this is as follows...

The burden of Egypt Behold the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud
and shall come to Egypt and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at
his presence and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it

Isaiah 19:1 KJV

They are wrong in thinking that the events of AD 70 was the second
coming as most Christians understand it

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endo,

Nice try at changing the subject from the book of Daniel being open and understood, to various other topics, and trying to put me in a box with teachings that I do not believe. If you have been reading and understanding my posts you would know that I am not a preterist.

Do you understand the book of Daniel or not?

Daniel is closed until end times by it being stated twice near the end of it. Therefore like Revelation using similar types of symbolism they are closed. As such being the major sections of eschatologyical scripture they are not easy to completely understand. This is why theologians over the centuries have created 4 seperate views of them with possibly one of them possibly being accurate. Also the possibility is none is completely accurate. All are educated guesses.

Does this answer your question?

 

[so-jesus-e-deus]

Good day!

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. " Rev.15:1

My suggestion to you, is to stop just repeating the false teachings that you have read and heard and do your own studies.

Good day!

I do my own studies. So much so that I never see someone that believes exactly as I do.
As for Rev 15: 1, it speaks of the seventh last plagues that depict the wrath of the Eternal. I agree that the seals and trumpets were demonstrations of the wrath of the Eternal. And that the Church of Christ is the first to be the target of the wrath of the Eternal, this can be seen in the letter of Peter:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." (Rev 4.16-19).

After all, the Church needs to be disciplined to fulfill its role as the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). And how the Church has needed this discipline !!!
However, judgment is only through the vials that will be shed after the rapture.

 

[abcdef]

Daniel is closed until end times by it being stated twice near the end of it. Therefore like Revelation using similar types of symbolism they are closed. As such being the major sections of eschatologyical scripture they are not easy to completely understand. This is why theologians over the centuries have created 4 seperate views of them with possibly one of them possibly being accurate. Also the possibility is none is completely accurate. All are educated guesses.

Does this answer your question?

Brother Endo,

I guess it does answer the question.

You know little or nothing about Daniel and Revelation. You are unqualified to answer any questions about the 2 books and any answers that you give concerning them must be wrong or a guess.

It's too bad that you have chosen the path of ignorance.

 

[abcdef]

Once again, the "last trumpet" mentioned in I Cor.15:52 has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet, other than both using the word "trumpet."

Brother Ahwatukee,

We know that the apostles met and discussed all these matters at length. The language and events would have been explained by Jesus when He was with them. The time in the years of men was not given to them, but the events of the time periods such as, the fall of Jerusalem, the times of the gentiles (ToG's) following the 70 ad fall, and the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem, was given to them.

A prophetic, symbolic language, based on the OT scriptures. The 7 trumpets are known to the OT scriptures as well as many other symbols used in the Revelation.

Having discussed these things together, when Paul says the last trumpet, everyone would have known what he was talking about, having explained it in detail previously.

The "last trumpet" is a blessing for the church being caught up,

The kingdom. The kingdom is caught up, wild and natural branches. This is shown in Rev 11:15 at the 7th trumpet, showing that these are the same event.

where the 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath for the wicked.

Yes, after the kingdom is taken to be with Jesus, this planet is destroyed by the fire of the stone striking.

In addition, there is nothing whatsoever mentioned about the gathering of the church in or around the context of the 7th trumpet.

The kingdom is shown gathered in Rev 11:15.

You will not even find the word "church" appear anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath.

The kingdom, look for evidence of the kingdom in Revelation.

The souls seen in the Revelation in heaven with Jesus in 96 ad., are OT souls who were resurrected with Jesus in 33 ad. Eph 4:8-10. In the #1 resurrection.

That is why they are not called the "church".

As I have made clear to you before, if the church was to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would put the church through all of the seals and trumpets

The kingdom does go through the seals and trumpets, but the symbols and events described are showing the natural branches continual rejecting of Jesus and the gospel kingdom.

----

7 seals, 37 ad thru 70 ad.

The 7 seals show the time line from the rejection of the gospel kingdom by the natural branches in 37 ad., until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad. at the 6th/7th seals.

----

7 trumpets, 70 ad (approx) thru resur/rapt, judgment, beginning of eternity.

The 7 trumpets show God's continued withdrawing of blessings on the natural branches because of their rejection of Jesus and the kingdom.

All during this time the kingdom is on earth, but is not cut off from a salvation relationship with Jesus.

which are God's wrath and which believers are not appointed to suffer,

The wrath of the second death, eternal death, that is the wrath that we are appointed not to suffer. Not terrible events that take place on this earth.

This has been pointed out to you before by many, yet you continue to twist the meaning of the Wrath to mean events on the earth and not the second death. A close inspection of your reference verses will show this, but some do not bother to inspect them closer, they just accept what you say, and that is the danger.

ergo, we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened.

You say that the kingdom is removed in Rev 4:1-2. But there IS NO TRUMPET SOUNDED THERE.

Only a voice that sounds like a trumpet.

So now, prove to me that the voice in Rev 4:1-2, is the last trumpet as you and all the pre-tribs falsely claim.

There is NO trumpet, John is literally the ONLY one taken to Jesus, there is NO evidence of a symbolic kingdom resurrection/rapture, and it bases the entire pre-trib time line on a false teaching.

How long will you continue to believe this dragon beast Roman spirit teaching?

The iron dragon beast nation Antichrist has been revealed since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad. It is Caesar and his image the Bishop of Rome.

There is NO GAP in the iron nation of the Statue of Daniel 2. From the waist to the toes, the iron nation does not cease from ruling over the people of Israel.

This truth, cannot be denied. Will you intentionally fight against the truth, once it is shown to you? Yes/No?

 

[Endoscopy]

Brother Endo,
G
I guess it does answer the question.

You know little or nothing about Daniel and Revelation. You are unqualified to answer any questions about the 2 books and any answers that you give concerning them must be wrong or a guess.

It's too bad that you have chosen the path of ignorance.

Did you bother to read Daniel 12 before accusing me of being ignorant about the books of Revelation and Daniel. Your accusation of not responding to the red herring attempt to side track the issue being discussed was not going to the point. Here for your education is part of Daniel 12. Now explain to me how you are able to completely understand Daniel in spite of these verses!!

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shashine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.

Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

 

[abcdef]

Did you bother to read Daniel 12 before accusing me of being ignorant about the books of Revelation and Daniel. Your accusation of not responding to the red herring attempt to side track the issue being discussed was not going to the point. Here for your education is part of Daniel 12. Now explain to me how you are able to completely understand Daniel in spite of these verses!!

Daniel 12 AMPC
3 And the teachers and those who are wise shashine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness (to uprightness and right standing with God) [shall give forth light] like the stars forever and ever.
4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the Book until the time of the end. [Then] many shall run to and fro and search anxiously [through the Book], and knowledge [of God’s purposes as revealed by His prophets] shall be increased and become great.

Daniel 12 AMPC
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the issue and final end of these things?
9 And he [the angel] said, Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Brother Endo,

Please read post # 9947 again.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day!

I do my own studies. So much so that I never see someone that believes exactly as I do.
As for Rev 15: 1, it speaks of the seventh last plagues that depict the wrath of the Eternal. I agree that the seals and trumpets were demonstrations of the wrath of the Eternal. And that the Church of Christ is the first to be the target of the wrath of the Eternal, this can be seen in the letter of Peter:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." (Rev 4.16-19).

After all, the Church needs to be disciplined to fulfill its role as the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). And how the Church has needed this discipline !!!
However, judgment is only through the vials that will be shed after the rapture.

Sir, you are making the same error that many do, which is confusing common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would have vs. the coming wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer. The purpose of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is how God is going to carry out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world, all those who are continuing to live according to the sinful nature, the proud and arrogant. For those who are in Christ, they have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. Therefore, how can you and others think that God is going to put us through the day of the Lord, the time of His wrath? For the wrath of God no longer rests upon believers, because Christ experienced the wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely.

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"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! - Rom.5:9

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - I Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - I Thes.5:9

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

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Believers in Christ have suffered trials and tribulation till this very. But believer will not be exposed to the time of God's wrath, but will be gathered by the Lord according to His promise in John 14:1-3 and I Thes.4:13-18.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day!

I do my own studies. So much so that I never see someone that believes exactly as I do.
As for Rev 15: 1, it speaks of the seventh last plagues that depict the wrath of the Eternal. I agree that the seals and trumpets were demonstrations of the wrath of the Eternal. And that the Church of Christ is the first to be the target of the wrath of the Eternal, this can be seen in the letter of Peter:

"Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator." (Rev 4.16-19).

After all, the Church needs to be disciplined to fulfill its role as the pillar and bulwark of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). And how the Church has needed this discipline !!!
However, judgment is only through the vials that will be shed after the rapture.

By the way, you obviously did not understand the scripture above that you posted above which says:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

Since the seven bowl judgments are said to be the last plagues which completes God's wrath, then there would have to be wrath that came before them, namely, the seals and trumpets. If something is said to be last, then something had to be first. The bowl judgments are not the only wrath of God and wish that you and others would stop chopping up these three sets of judgments of wrath. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets and which is followed by the bowls. Therefore, the Lamb/Jesus is responsible for all of the destruction and fatalities that result from the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.