Calvinism vs. Arminianism?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
None of the twelve were cast out but one was indeed lost, as also foreseen before hand by God.


12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12


  • none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.


Shall we discuss the principle of how one of His sheep becomes lost.




JPT

Yes 12 a metaphor used in parbles represents the authrotiy of God . The 12 a remnant of all the apostles listed (25) was set aside to represent bride of Christ the church, on this side of the cross .

Just as Judas is missing to represent unbeleif (no faith) the same is applied to the 12 tribes of Israel with the tribe of Dan missing Together they make up Christ wife the church he new Jerusalem His bride.

Sheep, become lost because they are the ones that crucify Christ over and over to public shame as if one demonstration fell short of the glory of God .

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,Heb 6
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
most Calvinists have gone way beyond what the bible actually teaches.

Amen.

When discussing the actual principles of faith and justification, the bible teaches that it is our obedience to what God says, that results in justification by faith.


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


The "work" that justifed Abraham was obedience: The corresponding act of obedience to the command of God to offer Isaac.


The work of obedience is what made his faith, the faith he received from God when God spoke to him to offer his son, complete and able to produce the intended divine result, which was to declare Abraham as righteous; Justification.


So it is with the Gospel.


Only those who obey the Gospel are regenerated: Born again.


JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
The 12 a remnant of all the apostles listed (25) was set aside to represent bride of Christ the church, on this side of the cross .
This issue was dealt with in the upper room, before the Day of Pentecost had fully come.


The necessary divine order of 12, which represents divine government was set in place.


12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. 13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. Acts 1:12-14


By naming the 11 remaining Apostles, the Holy Spirit is indicating that these 11, did not complete the divine Government necessary for God's plan to come to fruition on the appointed day.


Peter being the head, was dealt with by the Spirit concerning this matter -


15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and,

‘Let another take his office.’
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:15-26


  • And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.


If we read the language spoken about Judas the truth becomes clear -


  • which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell


Judas was predestined by God to reign and ruler with Christ and the Apostles in the age to come -


28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:28-29


  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,


Judas didn't continue to the end to inherit eternal life.


  • everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.


Judas was a disciple for over three years, and then was promoted to an Apostle.


He was sent out and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, cast out devils, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers, then became a traitor, and by transgression fell.


2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick,cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. 11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. Matthew 10:2-13


  • These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

  • Heal the sick,cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.


Judas had the same thing the other 11 had.




JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,Heb 6

Exactly.


Those who have partaken of the Holy Spirit, and have later renounced Christ, having turned away from Him, and returned to Judaism no longer have any way to be brought back to repentance.


They have become lost.



JPT
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
The reason I can think of why Calvinists want a puppet master God is so that they can sin and blame it on God.
Most people do have a problem with God and His Ways.

I don't.

Most of the time...
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,796
154
63
Unfortunately I feel that this individual is new to being reformed and or does not fully understand the whole realm.
He understands it exactly because the logical conclusion of Calvinism makes God a puppet master who authors evil and arbitrarily predestinates people to hell and a few others to eternal life.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
Brother these scripture do not show us that God is doing the obeying, but is in responding to their obedience.


The person must obey and remain in Christ, in order to produce much fruit.


The person's part in to obey the command to abide.


Here is how we abide.

  • he who keeps His commandments abides in Him


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


God does not do the obeying for us.




JPT
The Lord says in John 10 'without Me you can do nothing.'

Well if we can do nothing without the Lord then how can we obey in order to abide?

Its the fruit that are produced from abiding in the Lord that CAUSE obedience.


In your philosophy you have Christians working for what is given freely. There is a lot of that in the world. Misunderstanding.
 

carl11

Senior Member
Oct 20, 2017
277
31
28
He understands it exactly because the logical conclusion of Calvinism makes God a puppet master who authors evil and arbitrarily predestinates people to hell and a few others to eternal life.
In essence you are saying the same in that God looked through the corridors of time and saw who would chose and who would chose not. So my rebutted would be well why didn’t God do something to those whom he knew wouldn’t believe. Would that not make God a evil person also or would it be his divine purpose that those whom he knew wouldn’t chose HIM be sent to everlasting condemnation.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Most people do have a problem with God and His Ways.

I don't.

Most of the time...
The Lord says in John 10 'without Me you can do nothing.'

Well if we can do nothing without the Lord then how can we obey in order to abide?

Its the fruit that are produced from abiding in the Lord that CAUSE obedience.


In your philosophy you have Christians working for what is given freely. There is a lot of that in the world. Misunderstanding.
Choosing to receive the adoption is not a work but it is a choice.

We are created unto good works in Christ Jesus. We also are elect in Christ Jesus. Elected after we are saved not elected to be saved. Same error Israel made time and time again. They were Gods elect among the nations yet they needed to believe to receive the kingdom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
The Lord says in John 10 'without Me you can do nothing.'

Well if we can do nothing without the Lord then how can we obey in order to abide?
The Lord said in reference to people who were already “in Him” that “if” then remained in Him they would be “fruitful” that without Him we can do nothing.


5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears muchfruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:5




In John 10 Jesus says

I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9



JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
But he was a devil from the very beginning. Read the words of Christ.
No scripture says he was a devil from the beginning.

You read the Bible.

Jesus said referring to Judas and one of you is a devil.

This is a reference to someone who opposes God.

Judas was a man not a demon.

Judas was an Apostle then became a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:16


Remember what he said to Peter.

  • He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!



22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Was Peter a fallen angel.




JPT
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
No scripture says he was a devil from the beginning.
There are several Scriptures which say exactly that, so you might want to retract that statement:

Judas damned from birth:
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mt 26:24)

Judas -- a devil -- chosen by Christ:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (John 6:70.71)

Satan possessed (entered into) Judas:
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him,That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27)

Judas called the Son of Perdition (Child of Damnation):
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

Judas went "to his own place" (Hell = Perdition)
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. (Acts 1:25)
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
There are several Scriptures which say exactly that, so you might want to retract that statement:

Judas damned from birth:
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mt 26:24)

Judas -- a devil -- chosen by Christ:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (John 6:70.71)

Satan possessed (entered into) Judas:
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him,That thou doest, do quickly. (John 13:27)

Judas called the Son of Perdition (Child of Damnation):
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (John 17:12)

Judas went "to his own place" (Hell = Perdition)
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. (Acts 1:25)

Again. I repeat what I said because it is the truth.

I will try to add some explanation to help you see my point.

No scripture says he was a devil from the beginning.

(Again, I repeat) Jesus said referring to Judas and one of you is a devil.

(Not one of you has been a devil from the beginning.)


(Again, I repeat) This is a reference to someone who opposes God.


Devil - Greek - 1228

  1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
    1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
  2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Judas was a man not a demon.


Judas was an Apostle then became a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor.
Luke 6:16


Remember what he said to Peter.

  • He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!

Was Peter a devil?


22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:22-23


Was Peter a fallen angel?


No Peter, was opposing God, in which he was against what God had planned.


Peter denied the Lord three times, but came back and repented, and was restored. Peter did not commit suicide.


Judas never repented, but committed suicide and was lost.


Judas was predestined to reign and rule with Christ and the other disciples in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

  • you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas followed the Lord with the others, for over three years, then fell by transgression and became a traitor and was lost.


JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
Judas went "to his own place" (Hell = Perdition)
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. (Acts 1:25)

Yes brother, Judas went to hell, as I also quoted that scripture.


However he was predestined to reign and rule with Christ, and the other 11 from their thrones, next to Christ in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


  • when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones


This was spoken to the twelve, which included Judas, who was following Him at the time.


Later, he fell by transgression, having become a traitor.



Likewise, Saul of Tarsus was persecuting the Church, then later he "became" an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Became means he was the one thing, but then became a the other.


Just because we are "predestined" to be conformed to the image of His Son, doesn't somehow "garauntee" we will.


We have to recognize the process, embrace the process, and endure the process, in order to become... sons of God.


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12




JPT


JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
113
Judas went "to his own place" (Hell = Perdition)
That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. (Acts 1:25)

Yes brother, Judas went to hell, as I also quoted that scripture.


However he was predestined to reign and rule with Christ, and the other 11 from their thrones, next to Christ in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


  • when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones


This was spoken to the twelve, which included Judas, who was following Him at the time.


Later, he fell by transgression, having become a traitor.



Likewise, Saul of Tarsus was persecuting the Church, then later he "became" an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.


Became means he was the one thing, but then became a the other.


Just because we are "predestined" to be conformed to the image of His Son, doesn't somehow "garauntee" we will.


We have to recognize the process, embrace the process, and endure the process, in order to become... sons of God.


But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12




JPT


JPT
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,531
113
78
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
What you said is contradictory, I don't see how you can justify supporting both predestination and free choice at the same time. The two views are in opposition

No they are not. Predestination just says that God knows our choices in the future, that doesn't keep us from making those choices.

in-deep-thought-smiley-emoticon.gif