Is the sinful nature true?
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I think that the ban on Hyper Grace discussion wasn't necessarily having to do with the doctrine, but the tone and behavior of people in the discussion (especially for as long as it went, and how much it pervaded every topic). This was CS1's initial reasoning. In my opinion such a ban is way outdated, and old, which is why on the particular thread I marked it as such (old).
Many of people's misconceptions on so called "Hyper Grace" is through misinformation and/or ignorance. Many aspects of it challenge the status quo, revisiting traditions and questioning their validity in respect to Christ's work on the cross and His shed blood. What did Jesus, truly, accomplish on our behalf? If we consider it, delve into His role as High Priest, we begin to see how a legalistic fear has blinded people to what God through His Son has accomplished. Reconciliation.
Many of people's misconceptions on so called "Hyper Grace" is through misinformation and/or ignorance. Many aspects of it challenge the status quo, revisiting traditions and questioning their validity in respect to Christ's work on the cross and His shed blood. What did Jesus, truly, accomplish on our behalf? If we consider it, delve into His role as High Priest, we begin to see how a legalistic fear has blinded people to what God through His Son has accomplished. Reconciliation.
This is more of the misinformation that I was talking about. None of the prominent teachers, that I know of, teach that "Christians do not need to deal with their present sins." In fact, they teach the exact opposite, however the method may differ. Sure they teach that sin does not condemn the believer to Hell, and how could it? Did not Christ die to pay for all our sins? If He didn't, as God's word clearly reveals, He as the sacrificial lamb, would have to suffer since the foundation of the world (in Hebrews). It also says, "where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." Our sins have experienced remission, by the shed blood of Christ. This doesn't excuse sin though.
They emphasize Romans 6, just as much as the Apostle Paul taught that we ought to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God.
How one comes away with such a view (of not dealing with sin) from such teachers is not through firsthand experience but hearsay.
How does one answer the claim that only those whose father is the devil has a sin nature in consideration of 1 John 3:8?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Seeing it is written that children of the devil will do the lusts of their heavenly father the devil, then if he who is the devil was a liar from the beginning who abode not in the truth, then would a sinner lie? (Luke 11:13)
Then is it little wonder the children of the devil are at enmity against Spirit of truth, because they are not subject to the law of truth, neither can the be because there is no truth in them. (See Luke 10:21) Yet, whosoever is born of the Spirit of truth cannot sin, for there is no lie in them, for the LORD is a God of truth. (see Ps 31:5)
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
Seeing it is written that children of the devil will do the lusts of their heavenly father the devil, then if he who is the devil was a liar from the beginning who abode not in the truth, then would a sinner lie? (Luke 11:13)
Then is it little wonder the children of the devil are at enmity against Spirit of truth, because they are not subject to the law of truth, neither can the be because there is no truth in them. (See Luke 10:21) Yet, whosoever is born of the Spirit of truth cannot sin, for there is no lie in them, for the LORD is a God of truth. (see Ps 31:5)
I didn't say he was hyper grace, but just that some his teaching has some of its elements. For example stressing identity as the way to overcome sin. I think there were some other things that struck me as being the same, but I can't remember what they were.
That verse means we don't make a practice of sinning. We still have a sinful nature but we don't live by its dictates:
But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:8 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/1jn.3.8.NLT
Who really was converted to Jesus is a new creature. Unfortunately, the most people don't. They only convinced themselves that are born again.
Who isn't new creature remains condemned in their trespasses and sins (Eph 2.1) and doesn't belong to Christ:
- "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8.5-9).
The guy in the video is whacked in the head. The newest NIV (2011) still says "sinful nature" in that verse:
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Romans 7:18 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.7.18.NIV
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Romans 7:18 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/rom.7.18.NIV
He's right. The temptation to sin does not come from ourselves, it comes to us. We sin when and if we give in to that temptation. Had we not been tempted would we sin? No, not if we are true christians, we do not go around looking to sin. I want to do what's right, but sometimes I fail to- which makes me guilty of sin. Did I want to overeat delicious food and become overweight? No. I tried to resist, but my flesh got hungrier and hungrier. It's power became stronger than my self control. So i have to make my self control stronger and stronger until it overpowers my flesh.
If it was my root want to sin there would not exist a struggle not to sin. A caterpillar is a worm who does what they do- it's their nature. But once it becomes a butterfly it is no longer their nature to do what caterpillars do. It is now their nature to fly. I am not saying that when we sin we are not guilty of that sin, I'm saying that we do not desire to sin. We don't sit there and say "You know what, no temptation has come to me, but i think I'll go out and sin anyways."
We are talking about the source. Yes I want to taste delicious food, yes I want to indulge in overstuffing myself- but not if it means sinning against God by becoming a glutton. If not tempted to do so, and someone came to me and asked "Do you want to sin against God and become a glutton?" I would say no- it is not in my nature as a Christian to want to sin. But if you add the pull of physical hunger, the stress relief of comfort food, and the pleasure of taste- it is now hard for me not to, I still try to resist, but am not successful all the time (sometimes I am). So i need to get stronger at self control, to resist the devil- not to resist myself- if I wanted to sin i would not struggle so hard not to sin- I would just go about sinning freely without any resistance.
If it was my root want to sin there would not exist a struggle not to sin. A caterpillar is a worm who does what they do- it's their nature. But once it becomes a butterfly it is no longer their nature to do what caterpillars do. It is now their nature to fly. I am not saying that when we sin we are not guilty of that sin, I'm saying that we do not desire to sin. We don't sit there and say "You know what, no temptation has come to me, but i think I'll go out and sin anyways."
We are talking about the source. Yes I want to taste delicious food, yes I want to indulge in overstuffing myself- but not if it means sinning against God by becoming a glutton. If not tempted to do so, and someone came to me and asked "Do you want to sin against God and become a glutton?" I would say no- it is not in my nature as a Christian to want to sin. But if you add the pull of physical hunger, the stress relief of comfort food, and the pleasure of taste- it is now hard for me not to, I still try to resist, but am not successful all the time (sometimes I am). So i need to get stronger at self control, to resist the devil- not to resist myself- if I wanted to sin i would not struggle so hard not to sin- I would just go about sinning freely without any resistance.
That is not biblical. Here, this is the truth:
So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.
Galatians 5:16-17, 24-25 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/gal.5.16-25.NLT