For those of you who think Jesus is not God.

[JChesney]

I posted the most popular translations to show it's not a matter pf translation, as I believe you can also see it in the greek.

ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν
in fact in this place everything depends on punctuation. and put a period or comma depends on the publisher of the Greek text.
Hodges-Farstad (1984):


Lachmann edition (1850):

Tischendorf edition (1872)


Westcott and Hort (1881):

NA28 (2014) page with English translation:

and notes at the bottom of that page:

 

[Adstar]

There are plenty of verses that reveal that Jesus is God.. OT and NT..



Isaiah 9: KJV
6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Who is God ? who is the Father? why the Child that was born the Son of God the LORD Jesus Christ..

Isaiah 44: KJV
6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

God is the First he is the Last.. Who is the first and the last in the New testament? Read revelation chapter one and find out..

Revelation 1: KJV
16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. {17} And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: {18} I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

So God was dead but now is alive for evermore... Who died? The LORD Jesus died on the cross and now lives for evermore..

 

[Seedz]

When it is spread by an unbeliever, yes, then it is wrong.

View attachment 184995

Ah so the majority of my existence as a Christian means nothing? Or only if I was a real Christian? Please, do tell me what that looks like.

Maybe if I was a real Christian I'd still be one?

It gets confusing. Maybe I will be a real Christian later?

 

[Adstar]

Ah so the majority of my existence as a Christian means nothing? Or only if I was a real Christian? Please, do tell me what that looks like.

Maybe if I was a real Christian I'd still be one?

It gets confusing. Maybe I will be a real Christian later?

Your beliefs as a former ""Christian ? "" ended up in you coming to disbelieve in Christianity,, Yeah ?

So... By your very outcome you show that you where either not standing on the correct interpretation of the Word of God

ORRR

You where standing on the correct interpretation of the Word of God but rejected His Word..

Either way you are in no place among Christians to say this or that are the correct or incorrect interpretations of scripture..
If you had the correct interpretation of scripture and if you had embraced that interpretation you would still be a devout Christian..

But your no a Christian anymore.. So your POV on scripture has no authority with Christians..

 

[trofimus]

You have to understand that you won't get anywhere in the debate with scripture.

This is a matter that has spanned millennia. The orthodox view has reigned supreme, but please understand that this dilema is not without cause. There's a reason why it's been debated for so long.

It has not been debated for so long. Not inside the church.

Church had a time span when it had become an issue, church solved it and from that time it is not debated at all.

---

Internet will debate everything, thats not the thing.

 

[Adstar]

You have to understand that you won't get anywhere in the debate with scripture.
.

With a scripture believing Christian you will...

But with an unbeliever you might or might not depending on if the Holy Spirit is working upon the conscience of that particular unbeliever..

 

[trofimus]

There are some ambiguous verses that are traditionally translated to favor Christ's deity, but there are also verses that are clear and cannot be translated in a different way.

For example:

"ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς Θεότητος σωματικῶς"

"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" Col 2:9 (NIV)

 

[trofimus]

What would be a good translation to show Jesus is not God according to this passage?

Not to show that Jesus is not God, but it can be translated in a way that is neutral. We just move the dot, like:

...ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων. Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

...from them is Christ according to the flesh. [Let] God be blessed for ever. Amen.


I, personally, would not use this verse alone in a debate with Jehovists and similar.

 

[Zmouth]

While I can tell you plainly why Jesus is not God;

Without faith, a person cannot come to the knowledge of the truth. It might seem counterintuitive to say that those who believe their faith saves them is the same reason which they believe Jesus is God. Thus it is written, 'If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

It is easier to tell you why you do not believe that Jesus is not God.

 

[JChesney]

Not to show that Jesus is not God, but it can be translated in a way that is neutral. We just move the dot, like:

...ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων. Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

...from them is Christ according to the flesh. [Let] God be blessed for ever. Amen.


I, personally, would not use this verse alone in a debate with Jehovists and similar.

Yes, it is.
there are three variants of punctuation in this place, in original text this phrase have ambiguity.

 

[trofimus]

Yes, it is.
there are three variants of punctuation in this place, in original text this phrase have ambiguity.

a) ...from them is Christ according to the flesh. [Let] God, who is above all, be blessed for ever. Amen.
b) ...from them is Christ according to the flesh, who is above all. [Let] God be blessed for ever. Amen.
c) ...from them is Christ according to the flesh, who is above all, blessed God for ever. Amen.

The fact that there is "Amen" in the end, I would even suppose that a) or b) are more probable.

 

[Blik]

You know, I was thinking the same thing. Where did he ever find anyone that said Jesus Christ was not God? /QUOTE]

If Jesus is not God, then we need to go back to using the blood of innocent cattle for forgiveness!!!!

But Jesus did not replace God as some believe. All the descriptions of our God are true, all that God ordered for man is valid, Jesus is part of God, not a replacement.

We have lots of false beliefs around the idea that Jesus changed everything, even though He stated that He did not. Jesus fulfilled every prediction made about Him, and the Jesus is the only God people say that means Jesus got rid of the Father and took over.

God gave rituals to the Hebrews to help them live according to the commandments, but at Pentecost we were all give the Holy Spirit to help us. So the Jesus people say God changed everything so now we just think right and then we don't have to bother with any bothersome doing.

In Zech 8:23 "In those days 10 men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of the Jew by the hem of his garment, because we have heard that God is with you." Anyone can check on the superior achievements of the Jew if they have a computer. And the poor Jew doesn't even know the saving power of Jesus.

If Christians decided that God the Father is God and Jesus is God and knew what the Father said the Son also says, the world would change and we would lead into blessings unheard of under our currant belief system.

If fact, there has been a change since the Holocaust and the deep sea scrolls. In 1948 headlines all over the world announced that copies of scripture 2,000 years old and todays bible read the same.

 

[Marano]

Not to show that Jesus is not God, but it can be translated in a way that is neutral. We just move the dot, like:

...ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων. Θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας, ἀμήν.

...from them is Christ according to the flesh. [Let] God be blessed for ever. Amen.


I, personally, would not use this verse alone in a debate with Jehovists and similar.

What about 2 Pet 1:1 ?

 

[trofimus]

What about 2 Pet 1:1 ?

Look here, its by people who do not believe in the deity of Christ, but you can see what arguments they can use about 2Pt 1:1:

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/David Maas -- Is Jesus Called _God_ in 2 Peter 1_1.pdf

If you wanted use this verse alone, you would probably had to engage into quite a deep textual discussion. Not very effective for a quick, clear, "street" like argument, IMHO.

 

[Seedz]

Your beliefs as a former ""Christian ? "" ended up in you coming to disbelieve in Christianity,, Yeah ?

So... By your very outcome you show that you where either not standing on the correct interpretation of the Word of God

ORRR

You where standing on the correct interpretation of the Word of God but rejected His Word..

Either way you are in no place among Christians to say this or that are the correct or incorrect interpretations of scripture..
If you had the correct interpretation of scripture and if you had embraced that interpretation you would still be a devout Christian..

But your no a Christian anymore.. So your POV on scripture has no authority with Christians..

How come I wasn't able to interpret the word correctly?

If I did interpret it, how do you know that that is why I rejected it?

Is it possible that maybe there is a third option?

I'm just curious to know what it feels like to be a true Christian. I've been told many times that I wasn't a Christian to begin with. That kind of hurts because I thought that God was really listening to me back then.

Maybe not?

It's not that I'm debating interpretation, I'm just looking at the bigger picture, and I've concluded that it seems like a very human origins are that if Christianity.

 

[Seedz]

It has not been debated for so long. Not inside the church.

Church had a time span when it had become an issue, church solved it and from that time it is not debated at all.

---

Internet will debate everything, thats not the thing.

So you're telling me that Christianity has been exactly the same since Paul began writing?

 

[trofimus]

So you're telling me that Christianity has been exactly the same since Paul began writing?

No, I said:

"Church had a time span when it had become an issue [deity of Christ], church solved it and from that time it is not debated at all. "

 

[Seedz]

No, I said:

"Church had a time span when it had become an issue [deity of Christ], church solved it and from that time it is not debated at all. "

But isn't that just one point of the story?

What about in modernity? To me it looks like there are multiple doctrines and denominations. It appears that there is no concensus as to what is the right way to interpret and live a Christian life.

 

[trofimus]

But isn't that just one point of the story?

What about in modernity? To me it looks like there are multiple doctrines and denominations. It appears that there is no concensus as to what is the right way to interpret and live a Christian life.

Regarding the deity of Christ, all Christian churches accept it without any doubt.

Jehovists, Mormons and Adventists have a different view but they are not considered Christians, they have too many specific teachings rejected by the rest of Christianity.

 

[dcontroversal]

If scripture is our ultimate authority and it clearly and plainly says Jesus is God, what is there to debate, at that point wouldn't it just be people not accepting what scripture says? That is even if we think translations are faulty and look at the greek.

Exactly......the bible is clear on the subject....Immanuel<--->GOD WITH US.....not to mention the plethora of verses that state, allude to, prove, set Christ forth as God....as a matter of fact....to deny the divinity of Christ is tantamount to being lost in sin and an unbeliever....