For those of you who think Jesus is not God.

[pjharrison]

It's talking about the twelve son's of Jacob, The lineage in which Christ came through. Christ is lord of all.

 

[Seedz]

Regarding the deity of Christ, all Christian churches accept it without any doubt.

Jehovists, Mormons and Adventists have a different view but they are not considered Christians, they have too many specific teachings rejected by the rest of Christianity.

Is the point of Christianity salvation, or lifestyle practices?

 

[Tina2018]

I've seen people say that here and for those who think so I challenge anyone to show us what this verse means:
Romans 9:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Romans 9:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:5 English Standard Version (ESV)
5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Romans 9:5 American Standard Version (ASV)
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


I posted the most popular translations to show it's not a matter pf translation, as I believe you can also see it in the greek.

Well it depends on what version you are reading cause little things like a comma or a period make a big diffrence.

CEV
ROMANS 9:5
They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of Jesus Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever![a] Amen.

NABRE
ROMANS 9:5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all[c] be blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Not saying one thing or another, just that I find it rather shady when this is done.

There's nothing shady about presenting the truth.

 

[trofimus]

Is the point of Christianity salvation, or lifestyle practices?

The point of Christianity is Christ.

There is both salvation and lifestyle in Him. He is fully man and fully God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well it depends on what version you are reading cause little things like a comma or a period make a big diffrence.

Are you aware that many Bible versions are based on corrupted texts which also attack fundamental Bible doctrines? Punctuation should be the least of your worries. Christ is God blessed forever, as attested by many other passages.

 

[trofimus]

Are you aware that many Bible versions are based on corrupted texts which also attack fundamental Bible doctrines? Punctuation should be the least of your worries. Christ is God blessed forever, as attested by many other passages.

As demonstrated, punctuation can change meaning significantly.

 

[Blik]

Exactly......the bible is clear on the subject....Immanuel<--->GOD WITH US.....not to mention the plethora of verses that state, allude to, prove, set Christ forth as God....as a matter of fact....to deny the divinity of Christ is tantamount to being lost in sin and an unbeliever....

In the same way, to deny the divinity of God the Father and the scripture God breathed as gospel is to deny Christ.

 

[Nehemiah6]

As demonstrated, punctuation can change meaning significantly.

The language of the New Testament -- Koine Greek -- had no punctuation (neither did Hebrew).

In any event, most English translations of Heb 9:5 confirm that Jesus is God in that passage.

 

[trofimus]

The language of the New Testament -- Koine Greek -- had no punctuation (neither did Hebrew).

Thats the problem. Every English translator must interpret it according to his belief. He must choose one of multiple possibilities.

In any event, most English translations of Heb 9:5 confirm that Jesus is God in that passage.

Obviously. But if somebody wants to use this verse as some "bullet proof" argument, he will have difficulties, if his opponent is able to go deeper than just reading a specific translation. That was my point.

 

[Seedz]

The point of Christianity is Christ.

There is both salvation and lifestyle in Him. He is fully man and fully God.

So we are nothing without Christ, correct?

 

[Musicus]

So we are nothing without Christ, correct?

Correct. Without Christ we would not exist.

 

[Seedz]

Correct. Without Christ we would not exist.

According to the gospel of john correct?

 

[theanointedsinner]

would this thread be able to convince the Jews of Israel that Christianity is true?

 

[Adstar]

How come I wasn't able to interpret the word correctly?

If I did interpret it, how do you know that that is why I rejected it?

I did give two options.. Which means i was not making a definite statement either way about you.. Of course you would have a better idea which statement is accurate if either of them is.. If you want to know if your former religious beliefs where actually an accurate Christian position then you need to study Biblical Christianity to be sure..

Is it possible that maybe there is a third option?

If there is maybe you can come forward and say what you think it might be.. I would be interested to consider your theory..

I'm just curious to know what it feels like to be a true Christian.

Peace of mind,, assurance.. No fears or worries about eternity..

I've been told many times that I wasn't a Christian to begin with.

You may have been .. You may not have been.. I do not believe in the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine supported by a number of other Christians on this site..

That kind of hurts because I thought that God was really listening to me back then.
Maybe not?

Well i believe that God knows the thoughts and intentions of all people in existence.. So to me God is listening to everyone from the devout true Christian right through to the devout true satanist.. He knows all and see's all .. That's how he will be able to judge perfectly all people on the day of judgement..

It's not that I'm debating interpretation, I'm just looking at the bigger picture, and I've concluded that it seems like a very human origins are that if Christianity.

That's not my POV.. I see God as being very unhuman in many aspects of His revealed will... take for example the trinity.. If you where a human creating a religion that would be easily consumed and accepted by people you would not include a doctrine like the trinity.. Christians spend hours meditating on that mystery and trying to understand it..

If i was a human making up a religion i would make it a works salvation religion with one God.. People like things simple and they like to be able to make the grade and achieve the results for themselves.. Telling people that they cannot make the grade and they are sinners needing forgiveness to be saved really runs against the pride of people.. No one likes to be told they are a looser in need of someone else to pull them out of the... Well manure..

 

[Nehemiah6]

would this thread be able to convince the Jews of Israel that Christianity is true?

For Jews there is enough in the Old Testament to convince an honest Jew that Jesus is indeed the Messiah, the Christ (who is also God), and therefore Bible Christianity is true. Let's take just one passage (Micah 5:2,4):

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.... And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

1. Was Jesus born in Bethlehem? Yes

2. Did Pilate nail this superscription to His Cross? "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews".

3. Is Jesus God? Absolutely

4. Is the name of Jesus Christ known throughout the world? Absolutely

 

[trofimus]

would this thread be able to convince the Jews of Israel that Christianity is true?

No. When Jesus was living between them and performing miracles, they followed him massively. After His crucifixion, these masses were gone.

Cross is a stumbling block for them. They think that the kingdom of God is physical.

They rather invented their own religion (judaism) instead of accepting a crucified Christ.

 

[theanointedsinner]

No. When Jesus was living between them and performing miracles, they followed him massively. After His crucifixion, these masses were gone.

Cross is a stumbling block for them. They think that the kingdom of God is physical.

that will definitely rule out the most ambition goals for apologetics that we can possibly think of
let God do the unveiling

 

[trofimus]

that will definitely rule out the most ambition goals for apologetics that we can possibly think of
let God do the unveiling

Apologetics:
a) empowers our own faith (we acknoledge that Christianity is rational)
b) is a help for people who are searching for God

Apologetics (rational or biblical arguments) is quite useless for people who do not want to believe, do not care about God or who have other blocks (emotional, traditional, already in some ohter faith with a closed mind).

 

[Chuckyz2]

The Bible is quite clear on who God is and who Jesus is. Jesus speaks simply on this matter.
Jesus is not God, Yet Gods Spirit never left Him, save the brief time on the cross when He said, "Father, why has thou forsaken me?"
That is just one of many verses that clearly show They are separate entities.
Yet.. God was with Him, so in that, He had to be respected the same as You would respect God if you were in Gods presence.
Jesus only said what He heard from the Father. So when Jesus was speaking, they were hearing exactly what God would say if it were God Himself speaking. Jesus only did what He learned from the Father so whatever they saw Jesus do is the same thing God would do. Where I go, you can not come. I go to be with the Father who is in heaven.
So in this debate, both are right. Jesus is a man in the flesh. Yet Gods Spirit is with Him and works through Him so in that you can say He is God yet He is still the Son even though all Power has been given Him by the Father.
I did not come to do my will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
Why do you call me good. There is only one who is good. The Father who is in heaven.
Jesus speaks often of learning from God. Saying what He heard from God. Doing as He sees the Father doing, so they are without doubt two separate beings. Yet Gods Spirit is with Him So God is with Him and that makes Him God in that respect.
Jesus prays to the Father. Speaks to the Father. He claims not to be the Father. Yet when He says when you see me you see the Father, He is saying the Father is there also.
The Father and the Son. It isn't as complicated as it can appear when reading these debates.