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VW,
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 says that we are supposed to judge those who claim to be brothers but who are not living as they should. This passage doesn't give us the right to judge others on matters of doctrine, but it does say that we "do not fail to judge" those who are living in sin. A bad attitude and uncharitability toward brothers and sisters in Christ is a sinful attitude that should be judged. You have the right heart to pass judgment, as well, since you sincerely want those who stand condemned to walk in the light. Your heart clearly does not want to judge in order to condemn, but to restore.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 says that we are supposed to judge those who claim to be brothers but who are not living as they should. This passage doesn't give us the right to judge others on matters of doctrine, but it does say that we "do not fail to judge" those who are living in sin. A bad attitude and uncharitability toward brothers and sisters in Christ is a sinful attitude that should be judged. You have the right heart to pass judgment, as well, since you sincerely want those who stand condemned to walk in the light. Your heart clearly does not want to judge in order to condemn, but to restore.
David,
As far as not agreeing with heisTheos goes, you could say the same thing about "oneness". You agree with the statement that God is one, but not with respect to His person. The title "oneness" has just been around enough and is recognized for its theological implications, while heisTheos is new and not recognized. As to any confusion because people don't know what heis theos means, well, how many people really know what "anabaptist" means, or even something as common as "catholic"? We use terms all the time because they are familiar, but without recognizing or thinking for a moment that most people don't really know what the word itself actually means. Again, it is a recognition thing that comes with time and usage. Either way, I would gladly consider a good alternative if you or anyone else thinks of one.
As far as not agreeing with heisTheos goes, you could say the same thing about "oneness". You agree with the statement that God is one, but not with respect to His person. The title "oneness" has just been around enough and is recognized for its theological implications, while heisTheos is new and not recognized. As to any confusion because people don't know what heis theos means, well, how many people really know what "anabaptist" means, or even something as common as "catholic"? We use terms all the time because they are familiar, but without recognizing or thinking for a moment that most people don't really know what the word itself actually means. Again, it is a recognition thing that comes with time and usage. Either way, I would gladly consider a good alternative if you or anyone else thinks of one.
As for heisTheos not rolling off the tongue, well...a lot of complicated group names don't lend themselves to just tagging "ian" or "ist" on the end like Trinitarian and Methodist. Even "oneness" requires constantly writing "oneness believer" or somesuch. Then there is the confusion of saying that one is orthodox vs Orthodox, or a catholic Christian vs a Catholic.
Most groups are identified by what makes them distinctive, for obvious reasons. What makes my views distinctive can really only be stated in two ways, I believe that God is literally One in every sense, which is the positive, or the negative, which is that I deny the multi-personal nature of God. I can't see "person-denier" sticking as a good alternative, and it doesn't roll of the tongue either.
So...I'm not an heisTheosian, but an heisTheos adherent or an adherent of heis theos.
Most groups are identified by what makes them distinctive, for obvious reasons. What makes my views distinctive can really only be stated in two ways, I believe that God is literally One in every sense, which is the positive, or the negative, which is that I deny the multi-personal nature of God. I can't see "person-denier" sticking as a good alternative, and it doesn't roll of the tongue either.
So...I'm not an heisTheosian, but an heisTheos adherent or an adherent of heis theos.
A
All three of the Johannine letters deal with problems with schismatic groups, and in 1 and 2 John one of the characteristics of these groups is that they are heretical. In 1 John 4:1 we read that “many” false prophets have left the church community for the world. In 2 John 4 we read that “some” of the Christians are walking in the truth, while in 2 John 7 we learn that there are “many deceivers.”
The impression is that people in the church are defecting and going “out into the world,” probably to form their own groups based on their own doctrines: Exactly what we saw the Oneness adherents do in the early part of the 20th century just as some did in an earlier period and what you, for all I know, may be preparing to do or done already.
In 1 John 4 the heretics claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit when they teach what they do about Jesus. This does not mean that they were under direct Spirit-control at the time of their speaking, but that they were claiming that this was what the Spirit had taught them. John says that one can tell the true Spirit of God by the doctrine he teaches.
The Christian church finds its unity not around this or that doctrine, but around Jesus Christ. The one not committed to the real Jesus Christ does not know either the Father or the Son, according to John.
The ancient error and its modern Oneness offshoots misrepresent God and who Jesus Christ really is. So you have a serious matter here since your claims of truth are non-orthodox and based on a flawed usage of scripture and history.
Now pointing out this very scriptural truth does not mean the person who does so falls into some kind of judgment or condemnation.
So VW's conndemnation of orthodox Christians who adhere to sound doctrine while loving and not condemning but blessing repeatedly people who do not adhere to sound doctrine on a personal level qualifies as misguided. It is not surprising, of course, that the Oneness adherents themselves would assert such a thing is all well and good.
Now, in Romans 2:1–4 Paul lays down the principle that judgment passed on others is in some sense “reflexive”; that is, when we pass judgment on others, we condemn ourselves at the same time. For only God knows the truth about us, and only he is able therefore to pass judgment. We are mere creatures, limited with respect to both the truth about others and the truth about ourselves. We, like all others, are sinners (Rom 3:23); that is the ultimate reason we ought not to pass judgment.
Paul is speaking about not condemning persons... exactly what you guys are doing! Paul is not addressing speaking against unorthdox false doctrines.
Personally, I've condemned no one because God loves everyone. In fact, I've blessed you repeatedly and will continue to as per Romans 12:21 and many other New Testament scriptures instruct to.
What I have done is speak against heresy. You guys are actually sitting in here making up new heresy as if it were perfectly OK.
Notice that Paul’s words against judging seem to stand in conflict with his harsh words in Galatians 1:9, so the larger picture of Jesus’ teaching and life, characterized by love and compassion, by humility and forgiveness, stands in apparent conflict with another dimension of his life: Jesus’ words and actions could be uncompromisingly harsh toward those who opposed him and his ministry.
Paul spoke of “false brothers” (Gal 2:4) and those who oppose the “truth of the gospel” (Gal 2:5, 14), confuse the believers (Gal 1:7), “pervert the gospel of Christ” (Gal 1:7), bewitch the saints (Gal 3:1). This strong language shows how serious the matter was for Paul. What was at stake when Paul said this was nothing less than the Gospel of Christ.
It is clear then that Paul is not calling for the condemnation of his opponents because they are opposed to him, but rather because they are enemies of the gospel. That gospel is of divine origin, not of Paul’s invention (Gal 1:11–12). Therefore, those who pervert it subvert God’s redemptive purpose. Preaching a non-orthdox Jesus Christ is to miss the mark.
On those who thus act and teach, the judgment of God is justly pronounced. Thus there is here no real conflict between Paul’s general call for a nonjudgmental spirit and his strong word of judgment here, just as there is no real conflict between Jesus’ teaching on love for one’s opponents and his words of judgment. In both cases, where the work and truth of God is at stake, those who reject it stand under judgment.
As you sit here making up whatever doctrine about who and what God really is feels right to you and then misusing scripture to support it, you have the nerve to judgmental for caring enough about you and the reader to correct you?
Nothing personal fellas. I KNOW God loves each of us but you must be flat out nuts... lol. May God bless each of us with all truth and wisdom from his orthodox storehouse and help each of us to find His perfect will for our lives. I hold nothing against any of you. Peace.
The impression is that people in the church are defecting and going “out into the world,” probably to form their own groups based on their own doctrines: Exactly what we saw the Oneness adherents do in the early part of the 20th century just as some did in an earlier period and what you, for all I know, may be preparing to do or done already.
In 1 John 4 the heretics claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit when they teach what they do about Jesus. This does not mean that they were under direct Spirit-control at the time of their speaking, but that they were claiming that this was what the Spirit had taught them. John says that one can tell the true Spirit of God by the doctrine he teaches.
The Christian church finds its unity not around this or that doctrine, but around Jesus Christ. The one not committed to the real Jesus Christ does not know either the Father or the Son, according to John.
The ancient error and its modern Oneness offshoots misrepresent God and who Jesus Christ really is. So you have a serious matter here since your claims of truth are non-orthodox and based on a flawed usage of scripture and history.
Now pointing out this very scriptural truth does not mean the person who does so falls into some kind of judgment or condemnation.
So VW's conndemnation of orthodox Christians who adhere to sound doctrine while loving and not condemning but blessing repeatedly people who do not adhere to sound doctrine on a personal level qualifies as misguided. It is not surprising, of course, that the Oneness adherents themselves would assert such a thing is all well and good.
Now, in Romans 2:1–4 Paul lays down the principle that judgment passed on others is in some sense “reflexive”; that is, when we pass judgment on others, we condemn ourselves at the same time. For only God knows the truth about us, and only he is able therefore to pass judgment. We are mere creatures, limited with respect to both the truth about others and the truth about ourselves. We, like all others, are sinners (Rom 3:23); that is the ultimate reason we ought not to pass judgment.
Paul is speaking about not condemning persons... exactly what you guys are doing! Paul is not addressing speaking against unorthdox false doctrines.
Personally, I've condemned no one because God loves everyone. In fact, I've blessed you repeatedly and will continue to as per Romans 12:21 and many other New Testament scriptures instruct to.
What I have done is speak against heresy. You guys are actually sitting in here making up new heresy as if it were perfectly OK.
Notice that Paul’s words against judging seem to stand in conflict with his harsh words in Galatians 1:9, so the larger picture of Jesus’ teaching and life, characterized by love and compassion, by humility and forgiveness, stands in apparent conflict with another dimension of his life: Jesus’ words and actions could be uncompromisingly harsh toward those who opposed him and his ministry.
Paul spoke of “false brothers” (Gal 2:4) and those who oppose the “truth of the gospel” (Gal 2:5, 14), confuse the believers (Gal 1:7), “pervert the gospel of Christ” (Gal 1:7), bewitch the saints (Gal 3:1). This strong language shows how serious the matter was for Paul. What was at stake when Paul said this was nothing less than the Gospel of Christ.
It is clear then that Paul is not calling for the condemnation of his opponents because they are opposed to him, but rather because they are enemies of the gospel. That gospel is of divine origin, not of Paul’s invention (Gal 1:11–12). Therefore, those who pervert it subvert God’s redemptive purpose. Preaching a non-orthdox Jesus Christ is to miss the mark.
On those who thus act and teach, the judgment of God is justly pronounced. Thus there is here no real conflict between Paul’s general call for a nonjudgmental spirit and his strong word of judgment here, just as there is no real conflict between Jesus’ teaching on love for one’s opponents and his words of judgment. In both cases, where the work and truth of God is at stake, those who reject it stand under judgment.
As you sit here making up whatever doctrine about who and what God really is feels right to you and then misusing scripture to support it, you have the nerve to judgmental for caring enough about you and the reader to correct you?
Nothing personal fellas. I KNOW God loves each of us but you must be flat out nuts... lol. May God bless each of us with all truth and wisdom from his orthodox storehouse and help each of us to find His perfect will for our lives. I hold nothing against any of you. Peace.
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A
Correction. Replace "As you sit here making up whatever doctrine about who and what God really is feels right to you and then misusing scripture to support it, you have the nerve to judgmental for caring enough about you and the reader to correct you?"
to read:
"As you sit here making up whatever doctrine about who and what God really is feels right to you and then misuse scripture to support it, you have the nerve to personally judge those who care enough about you and the reader to correct you while accusing them of personally judging you. Your own hypocrisy is so obvious it makes one wonder how you could have missed it."
Nevertheless, I forgive. I love I don't condemn people because I know we are all imperfect and saved by grace as scripture asserts. That goes for each of us. But I'll debate the heresy and those who dissiminate it. Sure I will. Of course.
to read:
"As you sit here making up whatever doctrine about who and what God really is feels right to you and then misuse scripture to support it, you have the nerve to personally judge those who care enough about you and the reader to correct you while accusing them of personally judging you. Your own hypocrisy is so obvious it makes one wonder how you could have missed it."
Nevertheless, I forgive. I love I don't condemn people because I know we are all imperfect and saved by grace as scripture asserts. That goes for each of us. But I'll debate the heresy and those who dissiminate it. Sure I will. Of course.
AoK,
Who did I judge? I have literally no idea what you are talking about while you accuse me of obvious hypocrisy.
I don't make up doctrine and then support it, I read the scriptures and interpret them with the big picture in mind.
I have the nerve to judge those who care about me? What?
You're messed up in the head, man. I really have no idea where the heck you came up with this.
If you continue to be insulting, rude, judgmental, and so forth I'll have to finally break down and report you. Please don't go there, since I'm fine with serious, academic and wholly scriptural challenges to my beliefs.
Who did I judge? I have literally no idea what you are talking about while you accuse me of obvious hypocrisy.
I don't make up doctrine and then support it, I read the scriptures and interpret them with the big picture in mind.
I have the nerve to judge those who care about me? What?
You're messed up in the head, man. I really have no idea where the heck you came up with this.
If you continue to be insulting, rude, judgmental, and so forth I'll have to finally break down and report you. Please don't go there, since I'm fine with serious, academic and wholly scriptural challenges to my beliefs.
C
vw iv been appealing for that to be the case and have given up trying to tell AOK to have a long hard look at his posts, he assertains its done in love, where, how??? pray for him, i do.
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.
A
First my post was general in nature not to you specifically though you chose to take it that way. I NEVER used your name.
So for you to take it personally as if I did and then threaten to report me for being rude is a very odd tactic. Especially when you choose to call me "messed up in the head" which itself is a very rude comment.
Honestly, here it just looks like you're trying to invent a foundation to start reporting me. The moderators here are very intelligent and will see right through it.
Peace and God bless you.
So for you to take it personally as if I did and then threaten to report me for being rude is a very odd tactic. Especially when you choose to call me "messed up in the head" which itself is a very rude comment.
Honestly, here it just looks like you're trying to invent a foundation to start reporting me. The moderators here are very intelligent and will see right through it.
Peace and God bless you.
A
No VW, I have to disagree with you here. The Pharisees arose during the Intertestmental Period after the close of the Old Testament. It is a historical fact that during the four centuries prior to the appearance of Jesus, the Jews grew accustomed to the absence of prophetic voices instead electing for the rise of a lay reform movement which was the Pharisees. Look it up.
During this period, the traditions of the Jews were maintained and handed down in oral form. These oral traditions would later be reduced to writing. These oral adaptations of the Torah enabled Jesus to draw a sharp contrast between the teachings of the Pharisees and behavior intended by the Torah.
The Pharisees were a purity cult who were misuing the Torah. For example, they were applying to themselves purity laws that were intended for priests and sacrifices to themselves and attempting to force them on the population at large.
They were far from accurate. Instead of being masters of the law, as you claim, history shows us that they were inept with it misusing it in ways it was never intended.
Your possible inference that this might somehow apply to authentic Christians who love God and people enough to debate those who make up heresy and begin teaching it as fact is not in itself a logical position nor a correct one.
Jesus corrected the Pharisees for doing exactly that and so did the Apostles and so do us learned Christians that care enough to take the time and the energy to do so.
God bless you VW.
During this period, the traditions of the Jews were maintained and handed down in oral form. These oral traditions would later be reduced to writing. These oral adaptations of the Torah enabled Jesus to draw a sharp contrast between the teachings of the Pharisees and behavior intended by the Torah.
The Pharisees were a purity cult who were misuing the Torah. For example, they were applying to themselves purity laws that were intended for priests and sacrifices to themselves and attempting to force them on the population at large.
They were far from accurate. Instead of being masters of the law, as you claim, history shows us that they were inept with it misusing it in ways it was never intended.
Your possible inference that this might somehow apply to authentic Christians who love God and people enough to debate those who make up heresy and begin teaching it as fact is not in itself a logical position nor a correct one.
Jesus corrected the Pharisees for doing exactly that and so did the Apostles and so do us learned Christians that care enough to take the time and the energy to do so.
God bless you VW.
A
See you just did it again VW. You just made a personal judgment against me. I'm speaking against making up heresy here. I'm not judging anyone on a personal level. But you have been and this right here is a witness to it. What about all those things you said on page 33 about those who act in this manner that you're acting in. This is the sort of behavior I was referring to VW in my earlier posts where I responded to you. Please stop doing this to me.
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The Pharisees condemned people according to the Law, without regard to having compassion. If they did not follow the scriptures, then Jesus lied when He accused them of searching scripture because they thought that they could find eternal life in them. The Pharisees were those who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery, and Jesus forgave her, saying for her to go and have correct doctrine? For her to go and sin no more. You have a strange application of truth my friend.
In His love,
Vic
In His love,
Vic
A
I keep explaining it but you still don't have it. I got an A in this class. The Pharisees condemned people according to their misinterpretation and misapplication of the Mosaic law which they also added to in the form of ritual. That is a historical fact.
Now let's look at the verse you are referencing and see what it actually says in context:
"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." -John 5:37-40
Here we see that Jesus was telling the Pharisees (who were not masters of the law but rather mistranslators and misapplicators of the law) that by rejecting Jesus (e.g. who Jesus really is as in the Messiah, son of God, second person of the Godhead) instead of just a man standing in front of them they were missing out on eternal life.
What Jesus is NOT saying here is that people who understand scripture properly and accept the right Jesus as He really is are missing out on eternal life.
Jesus had correct doctrine, and so did the woman after he forgave her. She didn't go off and start a cult around a misinterpretation of who Jesus is. She accepted who he really was.
My application of the truth is correct VW. You are blundering badly by asserting that intellectuals who correctly handle God's Word and don't cosign heresy must be Pharisees and unloving and all the other personal judgments you have been making against me even as you just did again. Feel free to stop any time.
Now let's look at the verse you are referencing and see what it actually says in context:
"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." -John 5:37-40
Here we see that Jesus was telling the Pharisees (who were not masters of the law but rather mistranslators and misapplicators of the law) that by rejecting Jesus (e.g. who Jesus really is as in the Messiah, son of God, second person of the Godhead) instead of just a man standing in front of them they were missing out on eternal life.
What Jesus is NOT saying here is that people who understand scripture properly and accept the right Jesus as He really is are missing out on eternal life.
Jesus had correct doctrine, and so did the woman after he forgave her. She didn't go off and start a cult around a misinterpretation of who Jesus is. She accepted who he really was.
My application of the truth is correct VW. You are blundering badly by asserting that intellectuals who correctly handle God's Word and don't cosign heresy must be Pharisees and unloving and all the other personal judgments you have been making against me even as you just did again. Feel free to stop any time.
C
brother you are really blind to what is being said here, its not we care for your views, your entitled to them, we try and encourage you that its ok if people dont agree, yet when someone doesnt agree with you, you do make it personal straight up, and then try and say "im doing it in love" - vw didnt make a judgement nor personal, just points out the "no love" , hmmm so then its all knowledge no love - clang bang clang cymbals clanging
C
VW and AOK, I respect both of you. I believe that both of you have very specific and useful ministries. It breaks my heart to see you at odds with another when I actually believe that both of you are right. AOK is acting in love to stop what he knows to be a very real danger, especially for the impressionable. VW is acting in love toward the Oneness believers hoping that the love of God will keep their hearts open toward the truth. Think about it brothers.
K
A
Calling heresy heresy is not a personal attack Consumed: it's a factual statement. I would like those that engage in the practice to see it for what it is because I do care about them, love them, and want them to know God as He is like the woman Jesus forgave whom the Pharisees were going to stone. She didn't sit around like some here in this thread have been doing using her best thinking to "perfect" a new heresy.
She accepted Jesus as He really is. And so have I. So hold your rocks of judgment Consumed and don't throw them anymore at me for striving with people from love for their sake and also the readers.
God bless you.
She accepted Jesus as He really is. And so have I. So hold your rocks of judgment Consumed and don't throw them anymore at me for striving with people from love for their sake and also the readers.
God bless you.