No, God did not lie

[Placid]

Hi Posters,

I want to repeat the questions from Post 57:

Are there those who would say that by saying the words, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord,” they have made a decision and are saved? --- They would be counted in as converts from the revival meeting.

But are they saved? --- If they died in the first two or three days when they were ‘on fire for the Lord,’ would they be saved?

But a month later when they are no longer around the Church or its people, are they saved?
From them saying the words, --- does that obligate God to keep a promise that they are saved? --- Or are they like Demas who Paul said, ‘went back because he loved this world better'?

Would we be giving someone false hope if we say they are saved by ‘making a decision,’ regardless of the life they lived afterwards?

And one more question. --- If they fell away quickly, but came again six months, or a year later, and rededicated themselves, would they have been in the category of backsliding?

 

[Deade]

Hi Posters,

I want to repeat the questions from Post 57:

Are there those who would say that by saying the words, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord,” they have made a decision and are saved? --- They would be counted in as converts from the revival meeting.

But are they saved? --- If they died in the first two or three days when they were ‘on fire for the Lord,’ would they be saved?

But a month later when they are no longer around the Church or its people, are they saved?
From them saying the words, --- does that obligate God to keep a promise that they are saved? --- Or are they like Demas who Paul said, ‘went back because he loved this world better'?

Would we be giving someone false hope if we say they are saved by ‘making a decision,’ regardless of the life they lived afterwards?

And one more question. --- If they fell away quickly, but came again six months, or a year later, and rededicated themselves, would they have been in the category of backsliding?

In my opinion they were never saved in the first place. The drawing process was started but they could not endure. Until you are given the HS you will not endure. Once the HS enters the picture Christ will finish the work He started (Heb. 12:2).

 

[OneFaith]

BUT<------what comes before the BUT.....that is the context....

After the but is not always against the context, if you are considering what other scriptures say- which brings the context more into focus. "But the blood of animals never washed away sin." Is very relevant to the context.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Would we be giving someone false hope if we say they are saved by ‘making a decision,’ regardless of the life we lived afterwards?

Hi Placid, yes!

Unlike God, we cannot see the heart (even our own), so the things that "accompany" salvation (IOW, the things that we do/say/think as a Christian 'because' we've been saved), make up the majority of the evidence that what we have to go on to, for instance, fulfill this command .. 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Someone who "claims" to have become a Christian, but then leaves the faith and returns to his/her wallowing in the mud, IOW, returns to their former, sinful ways after "claiming" to be saved, was never saved to begin with .. e.g. Matthew 7:22-23; Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23; 1 John 2:19 cf Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43.

True Christians act like Christians (most of the time anyway ).

~Deut

.........1 John 2
.........19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have
.........remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

 

[Placid]

Hi Deade,

Quote: In my opinion they were never saved in the first place.

In that case you would say that no one is saved from making a first time decision, because it is not known if they will continue in faith, or draw back.

Then the question I asked: --- If they died in the first two or three days when they were ‘on fire for the Lord,’ would they be saved?

They would be 'in faith,' so God would save them, would He not?

 

[Placid]

Hi Deuteronomy,

Quote: True Christians act like Christians (most of the time anyway

So you would agree with Deade, that to make a first time decision does not mean salvation.

And the same question: --- If they died in the first two or three days when they were ‘on fire for the Lord,’ would they be saved?

And Jesus said in John 3:3 "Most assuredly I say to you, Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
--- So that does, or doesn't, mean salvation?

Are you saying that --- "Born again" in that sense of 'being enlightened,' does not mean salvation?

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hi Deuteronomy,

Quote: True Christians act like Christians (most of the time anyway

So you would agree with Deade, that to make a first time decision does not mean salvation.

And the same question: --- If they died in the first two or three days when they were ‘on fire for the Lord,’ would they be saved?

And Jesus said in John 3:3 "Most assuredly I say to you, Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
--- So that does, or doesn't, mean salvation?

Are you saying that --- "Born again" in that sense of 'being enlightened,' does not mean salvation?

Hi Placid, I believe that the Bible teaches us that 'true' Christians are saved (IOW, that they have come to possess "eternal" life) from the moment they first believe .. e.g. John 5:24.

That said, my last reply to you was in response to this particular statement of yours, "Would we be giving someone false hope if we say they are saved by ‘making a decision,’ regardless of the life they lived afterwards?" -NOT- "when they were on fire for the Lord".

I took the statement that qualified your original question, "regardless of the life they lived afterwards", to mean someone who "claimed" to be a new Christian, but nothing about them had changed and their life was anything but, "on fire for the Lord".

I would always choose to encourage and assure a new Christian in their newfound faith who is seeking to know God more deeply, who is grieved over his/her sins, who is actively seeking to please, obey, honor and glorify God 24/7, etc., and I would continue to do so unless that changed.

Remembering what the Lord has to say about those "rocky soil" folks in Matthew 13 may be helpful in this case.

.........Matthew 13
.........20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately
.........receives it with joy;
.........21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because
.........of the word, immediately he falls away.

Sometimes those who appear to be "on fire" at the outset, who liked what they saw/heard of Christ and Christianity, fall away when the going gets tough (IOW, fall away due to the inevitable persecution that befalls all who name the name of Christ .. e.g. 2 Timothy 3:12, and that even if they were never His .. cf Matthew 7:22-23).

Only time will tell, because the truest sign of saving faith, IOW, the truest sign that someone has truly been regenerated/born again, justified, and made into a wholly new creature in Christ by God, is best seen in a believer's perseverance in the faith (not in their early excitement about the faith alone).

.........Matthew 10
.........22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Just to be clear, I believe that the Lord has promised to see all of us who are 'truly' His safely through this life to Glory .. e.g. John 5:24, 6:37-40, 44, 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6, 2:13, Hebrews 7:25, 1 John 5:13.

But .. false professions are made; short-term enthusiasts fall away (Matt. 13:20–22); many who say to Jesus, “Lord, Lord,” will not be acknowledged (Matt. 7:21–23). Only those who show themselves to be regenerate by pursuing heart-holiness and true neighbor-love as they pass through this world are entitled to believe themselves secure in Christ. ~Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs (p. 242). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House.

Very sorry for the length of this reply, but I hope that explains it.

~Deut

"ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and ..
of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING,
but raise it up on the last day"
John 6:37-40
(excerpt)​

 

[Deuteronomy]

The above explains, at least in part, why Reformed theology continues to teach the, Perseverance of the Saints, rather than the somewhat crass, modern revision that has come to be known as, "Once Saved, Always Saved".

 

[Placid]

Hi Deuteronomy,

OneFaith said: --- “The good news is that if you obey the gospel you will escape eternal hell fire. Christ's blood washing away our sins is what saves us, but other things save by leading us to it- hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and being baptized into Christ's death- where He shed His blood. (This is how we get ‘in Christ’ by obeying the gospel). So whether you understand how or not, you must agree that obedience effects salvation.--- To be born again is by water and Spirit, not by words.”

And then you used the appropriate verses from Matthew

Matthew 13 .20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately .receives it with joy;
.........21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because.of the word, immediately he falls away.

--- And this is where obedience comes in. --- To make the first decision is the right indication. And if it is made sincerely I would be more generous than you, to believe that if the person died ‘in the moment,’ or in that first ‘enlightenment of faith,’ I believe they would be saved. --- As your Scripture verse says, “When affliction or persecution arises 'BECAUSE OF THE WORD' they fall away,” --- So the later decision to be disobedient to God in falling away is what makes the difference, is it not?

--- So we agree with OneFaith that we have to go on to John 3:5 where Jesus said further,“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ‘enter’ the kingdom of God.”

So what does it mean, to be ‘born of water,’ and ‘born of the Spirit?

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hi Deuteronomy, OneFaith said: --- “The good news is that if you obey the gospel you will escape eternal hell fire. Christ's blood washing away our sins is what saves us, but other things save by leading us to it- hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and being baptized into Christ's death- where He shed His blood. (This is how we get ‘in Christ’ by obeying the gospel). So whether you understand how or not, you must agree that obedience effects salvation.--- To be born again is by water and Spirit, not by words.”

Hi Placid, God chooses to graciously justify us from the moment we first believe/first come to "saving" faith in Christ, and we are "in Christ" (and possessors of "eternal" life) from that moment on .. e.g. John 5:24, John 6:37-40; John 10:27-28; 1 John 5:13.

We choose to obey because we are already "in Christ", because we've already become "His workmanship", because we have already been made wholly "new creatures" in His Son .. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10, IOW, because we are already "saved", and not before.

Here are a few Biblical descriptions of those who are outside of Christ.

........Romans 3
.........9 We have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
.........10 as it is written,
......... “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
.........11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
.........THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
.........12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
.........THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
.........THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

........1 Corinthians 1
.........18 The word of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

........1 Corinthians 2
.........14 A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot
.........understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

........Ephesians 2
.........1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
.........2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
.........of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
.........3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind,
.........and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Since this is the description and condition of all who are outside of Christ, then how in your opinion can a person who 1. does not know God .. e.g. Matthew 7:23 cf John 17:3, and who 2. cannot accept or understand the things of God (because the things of God appear to be nothing more than foolishness to them), choose to obey God? For that matter (assuming that we are talking about reasonable/rational people who have free will, that is), WHY would they ever choose to do that?

Thanks!

~Deut

................Ephesians 2
................10 We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus -for- good works, which God prepared beforehand
................so that we would walk in them.
.

 

[Deuteronomy]

--- To make the first decision is the right indication. And if it is made sincerely I would be more generous than you, to believe that if the person died ‘in the moment,’ or in that first ‘enlightenment of faith,’ I believe they would be saved.

Hi again Placid, I have to admit to being somewhat confused by what you just said. My belief (please take note of the first sentence of my reply to you in post #67 above) is that anyone who comes to saving faith in Christ is saved from the moment they first believe. Do you mean something different than this when you use the word "sincerely"? If so, in what way do you mean it?

As a bit of an aside here, demons sincerely 'believe' in God .. James 2:19, but surely you cannot believe that they are saved because they do, can you?

Thanks!

~Deut

.........James 2:19
.........19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
.

 

[Deuteronomy]

On earth obedience does earn things, but in the spiritual realm it does not earn payment for even one sin. Since it cannot earn it, God can choose to use obedience as the deciding factor for who He gives grace to, and who He does not-It is God's personal preference to give it to those who obey, since they cannot earn it their selves.

Hi OneFaith, I'm sorry for taking so long to get back to several of your posts, but I hope to try to begin to do so now. That said, lets start with the quote above.

On the one hand, you said that our choice to obey God does not "earn" our salvation (that we are saved due to Christ's blood washing away our sins, and because God chooses to save us, which are two things I certainly agree with). But then, on the other hand, you said that the only ones God saves are the individuals who've chosen to "obey" Him.

So, in the end, Christ's blood is ~not~ the deciding factor, is it!? In this scenario of yours, the only difference between,

........1. those who go to Heaven to be with the Lord and
........2. those who end up in Hell instead,

lies with the individual (and their choice to obey .. or not). So how can you possibly say that our obedience earns us nothing in eternity when it is the very thing that decides our eternity for us?

Thanks!

~Deut

.........Titus 3
.........5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.

 

[Placid]

Hi Deuteronomy,

--- To make the first decision is the right indication. And if it is made sincerely I would be more generous than you, to believe that if the person died ‘in the moment,’ or in that first ‘enlightenment of faith,’ I believe they would be saved.

You said,
Hi again Placid, I have to admit to being somewhat confused by what you just said. My belief (please take note of the first sentence of my reply to you in post #67 above) is that anyone who comes to saving faith in Christ is saved from the moment they first believe.

Response: ---

I gave the example of a revival meeting where people go forward to receive Christ. --- Like the seed on stony ground some new converts ‘spring up quickly,’ and begin to testify to their faith in God.

They are obedient in their service and have the ‘joy of the Lord’ --- and they would certainly have the assurance of salvation.

--- And as you say, “Anyone who comes to saving faith in Christ is saved from the moment they first believe.”

So, if they died in that period of faith and assurance of salvation, would you not agree that they would be saved, and their saved soul would go to heaven?

--- In this verse you gave of those ‘who sprung up quickly’ from Matthew 13:21 “Yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises ‘because.of the word,’ immediately he falls away.”

The key here is that the persecution and affliction came, BECAUSE OF THE WORD. --- So the devil used someone to discourage him, using the ‘word,’ to perhaps convince him that the group he was following was a cult. --- Or perhaps a theologian was challenging this ‘babe in Christ’ to explain his faith, and so as 'a babe in Christ,' he fell away.

--- So, an ‘on fire Christian,’ became a casual believer and becomes unfruitful.

Would you say, “He was never saved in the first place?”

--- And sometime later he might learn more and understand more, then rededicate himself to the Lord. --- So in that case, would he be a backslider?

Or on the other hand, if he was discouraged because of somebody using the word against him, he might say, --- “I accepted the Lord and was following Him, but there is too much opposition to Christians, so I will forget it and go back to my buddies at the bar.” This is a new decision then, is it not?

So there is not a pat answer for every case, is there? --- After the first decision there has to be obedience and then endurance to come through to maturity, is that not right?

 

[Deuteronomy]

I gave the example of a revival meeting where people go forward to receive Christ. --- Like the seed on stony ground some new converts ‘spring up quickly,’ and begin to testify to their faith in God. They are obedient in their service and have the ‘joy of the Lord’ --- and they would certainly have the assurance of salvation. --- And as you say, “Anyone who comes to saving faith in Christ is saved from the moment they first believe.” So, if they died in that period of faith and assurance of salvation, would you not agree that they would be saved, and their saved soul would go to heaven?

Hi Placid, a woman is either pregnant or she is not So it is with saving faith, no matter what someone feels, has said or prayed, or even believed about themselves, they are either saved, or they are not.

Here again is Dr. Packer's quote from above that does an excellent job of detailing what I believe as well:

.........False professions are made; short-term enthusiasts fall away (Matthew 13:20–22); many who say to Jesus, “Lord, Lord,” will not be
.........acknowledged (Matthew 7:21–23). Only those who show themselves to be regenerate by pursuing heart-holiness and true neighbor-love
.........as they pass through this world are entitled to believe themselves secure in Christ. ~Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs

As St. John tells us, those who declare themselves believers, but end up leaving the Christian faith, prove by their leaving that they were never Christians from the get-go .. 1 John 2:19. Likewise, of those who get excited about Christ and the Christian faith at a revival meeting and, as a result, go forward to pray and receive Christ, some 1. truly come to saving faith in Christ, while others 2. do not (even though they said the same words/prayed the same prayer).

My church was very tied into the Billy Graham Crusade a few years ago when it came to our town. As a result of our involvement, many who came forward to make a profession of faith at the Crusade were assigned to us so that we could follow-up with them, help them, answer any questions they had, invite them to visit or join our church, or help them find another church to be a part of. All were contacted (or we at least attempted to contact them). A few showed some interest at first, many showed none at all. Few asked questions, and none ended up coming to our church, even for a visit, or asked for our help to find another church. The Crusade was wonderful and moving, the follow-up process was telling.

The Bible makes it clear as well that there will be many who live their entire lives as members of the visible church, but they always were/always will be sons/daughters of Satan, not the real McCoy .. Matthew 7:22-23; Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43.

There are MANY short-term enthusiasts Placid, but the Bible makes it clear that there are no short-term Christians! The Lord, who told us that no one can come to Him to be saved unless he/she is first drawn/given to Him by His Father, also told us this:

.........John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
.........ALL that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and .. of ALL He that has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on
.........the last day.

~Deut

...............1 John 2
..............19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they
..............went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
.

 

[Deuteronomy]

--- After the first decision there has to be obedience and then endurance to come through to maturity, is that not right?

Yes, those are two of the principle signs that we look to as proof (that we, or someone else, who "claims" to be a Christian/has made a "decision for Christ", has actually come to saving faith in Him as well).

~Deut

 

[OneFaith]

Hi OneFaith, I'm sorry for taking so long to get back to several of your posts, but I hope to try to begin to do so now. That said, lets start with the quote above.

On the one hand, you said that our choice to obey God does not "earn" our salvation (that we are saved due to Christ's blood washing away our sins, and because God chooses to save us, which are two things I certainly agree with). But then, on the other hand, you said that the only ones God saves are the individuals who've chosen to "obey" Him.

So, in the end, Christ's blood is ~not~ the deciding factor, is it!? In this scenario of yours, the only difference between,

........1. those who go to Heaven to be with the Lord and
........2. those who end up in Hell instead,

lies with the individual (and their choice to obey .. or not). So how can you possibly say that our obedience earns us nothing in eternity when it is the very thing that decides our eternity for us?

Thanks!

~Deut

.........Titus 3
.........5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.

I tried to give you scenarios to show how this could be so- like how wearing a yellow shirt does not earn you a mansion, but if a rich man was giving away mansions to people who will put on a yellow shirt, that is his deciding factor of who to give it to. Do you agree that wearing a yellow shirt does not earn a mansion?

Just as putting on a yellow shirt cannot earn a mansion, obedience cannot earn salvation. (not won't, can't!)

On a separate note, the Giver can choose anything as His deciding factor of who to give His gift to.

Let me try another scenario... A rich man decides to donate (give) 100 computers to a school of his choice. He considers a school that is rich and has mostly braty kids, and a poor school that has mostly obedient kids. He chooses the later because they cannot afford to get their own, and because the kids are well behaved.

Now I ask you, did that school of good kids earn those computers with their obedience? If you say yes, I don't know how else I can help you see this truth- you would have to have ears to hear and eyes to see. I think anyone who can't see that is suppressing the truth- in which case there is nothing I can do. (with all due respect).

 

[Placid]

Hi Deuteronomy,

I understand what you are saying about “So it is with saving faith, no matter what someone feels, has said or prayed, or even believed about themselves, they are either saved, or they are not.”

However, In saying that ‘a woman is either pregnant or she is not,’ --- is not a good illustration because she could say, “Last year I was pregnant, now I’m not.” --- “Last year I made a decision, this year, I have changed my mind.”

I also have been involved in a Billy Graham Crusade, and observed the same thing, that some who make decisions at the meetings, do not go on in obedience. --- However, they have the experience of the hour, and may reconsider it later.

As you mentioned the verse, “ No one can come to Him to be saved unless he/she is first drawn to Him by His Father,” --- don’t you see this coming forward in an altar call as ‘being drawn by the Father?’

There’s another danger with some groups who say that God only draws some and not others, because that is inconsistent with the verse that says, ”God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.”

This indicates that God draws everyone to Himself, and they either respond or not. Further we know that after a ‘first time decision,’ the Holy Spirit can keep drawing that person at intervals throughout their life.

--- The person might like to forget their first experience, when they were drawn forward, but God doesn’t forget, and He can keep drawing again and again, can He not?

Sometimes it takes years for someone with a praying mother or grandmother to finally accept the Lord. --- Everyone is different.

--- But as it says in Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

--- I agree with you that there are many who believe they are Christians, but who do not know Christ. --- And that is why God is under no obligation to save them, until they come by repentance, or re-dedication to Him.

So we continue to give the same message, 'We must accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord and live for Him.'

 

[Placid]

Hi Deuteronomy,

There is one more Parable that I would like to mention for you and OneFaith to comment on, from Matthew 13:
1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And in the interpretation to the disciples, Jesus said:
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and immediately with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, and he stumbles or is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

So we know that in 19, those who hear the word but don’t receive it are not saved
Those in 20 and 21 believe quickly, but then fall away. And we have already discussed them.
22 But he who receives the word among the thorns, he receives the word, but the cares of the world, and deceitfulness of riches cause them to be unfruitful.

--- So they are still believers? They have not denounced their faith or stopped worshiping God, --- and there may be lots of them in our Churches on Sunday. so are they Christians, and are they saved?

Ir is it just the 30, 60, and 100 fold that are saved?

 

[Deuteronomy]

I tried to give you scenarios to show how this could be so- like how wearing a yellow shirt does not earn you a mansion, but if a rich man was giving away mansions to people who will put on a yellow shirt, that is his deciding factor of who to give it to. Do you agree that wearing a yellow shirt does not earn a mansion?

Just as putting on a yellow shirt cannot earn a mansion, obedience cannot earn salvation. (not won't, can't!)

Hi OneFaith, the problem is this, it isn't that obedience cannot earn salvation (it was supposed to, and in Christ it does*), the problem is the fact that NONE of us, from our first parents onward, have ever been "obedient". Rather, we are ALL ,"transgressors of the law" .. James 2:10-11 (well, save the One, of course).

To stand in the presence of God requires that we be...

........1. Perfectly Innocent
........2. Perfectly Righteous

...but no human being, since the time of our progenitors' first sin in the Garden of God, has ever been able to lay claim to either one of those (again, except for Jesus).

THAT is, in fact, the "bad news".

The "Good News" on the other hand is the fact that Jesus came here to save us from our sins, as well from the wrath of His Father, by doing for us what we could not do for ourselves ... cf Romans 5:8-10.

He lived a perfectly obedient (and therefore perfectly righteous) life before His Father as a man (IOW, He, on our behalf, lived the perfectly obedient life that we were 'supposed' to live), and He died on the Cross to make atonement for our sins (and in so doing rendered us innocent again in the eyes of His Father) .. e.g. Isaiah 53:5-6; 2 Corinthians 5:21. Therefore Jesus is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins (meaning that our salvation, from start to finish, was earned for us by Someone else* .. and by God's gracious promise to save us on that basis alone .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5).

So the first and biggest problem with your theory is that NO ONE is obedient. Granted, those of us who have come to saving faith in Christ become far more obedient than we used to be as non-Christians from that moment on, but that means that your theory amounts to nothing more than this, that God chooses to save the ones who He has ALREADY saved, which makes no sense at all (none that I can figure out anyway).

The second problem involves your conflating of ideas in your examples that cannot be harmonized, to arrive at the theory you have, but this post is too long already, so I'll hold off talking about that until next time.

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hi Deuteronomy,

I understand what you are saying about “So it is with saving faith, no matter what someone feels, has said or prayed, or even believed about themselves, they are either saved, or they are not.”

However, In saying that ‘a woman is either pregnant or she is not,’ --- is not a good illustration because she could say, “Last year I was pregnant, now I’m not.” --- “Last year I made a decision, this year, I have changed my mind.”

Hi Placid, I think you may be missing the point of my analogy. In saying that a woman is either pregnant or she is not, what I mean is that simply "saying and "believing" that you are pregnant doesn't make it so. So it is with coming to true faith in Christ, simply saying or even believing that you have does not necessarily make it so.

I also have been involved in a Billy Graham Crusade, and observed the same thing, that some who make decisions at the meetings, do not go on in obedience. --- However, they have the experience of the hour, and may reconsider it later.

Yes, and I think that is probably true of most (all?) who come to Christ. IOW, much work is done by God in the life of an unbeliever prior to the actual moment that they exercise the gift of saving faith that He gave them and believe, surrendering and trusting their eternal lives to Him.

As you mentioned the verse, “ No one can come to Him to be saved unless he/she is first drawn to Him by His Father,” --- don’t you see this coming forward in an altar call as ‘being drawn by the Father?’

No, I believe that being "drawn" to faith by the Father is in regard His inward, efficacious call, which results from His quickening us (regenerating us from spiritual death .. Ephesians 2:1-3, to spiritual life .. Ephesians 2:4-5/causing us to be "born again", which He accomplishes by changing us/giving us new hearts and new spirits .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27, John 3:3). Therefore, regeneration must precede faith.

There’s another danger with some groups who say that God only draws some and not others, because that is inconsistent with the verse that says, ”God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.”

Here is what v9 says:

.........2 Peter 3
.........9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,
.........not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter was written to/about the elect of God alone (IOW, to/about the saints and/or saints to be .. so was Chapter 3, so was the passage from Chapter 3, and so was v9).

The "us", the "any", and the "all" who are being referred to in v9 are the elect, IOW, those who God 'knows' will eventually end up coming to faith in Christ and be saved. These are the ones who God chooses to be longsuffering towards/patiently waits on to come to faith, so that none will be lost.

He is not "waiting patiently" for the reprobate to come to saving faith, because He already knows that they never will.

This indicates that God draws everyone to Himself, and they either respond or not. Further we know that after a ‘first time decision,’ the Holy Spirit can keep drawing that person at intervals throughout their life.

The Bible makes it clear that ALL who are ἑλκύω [helkuo] "drawn" by the Father WILL be saved .. John 6:37-40, 44. So if all w/o exception are "drawn" by the Father, then all w/o exception will be saved. (are you a univeralist?)

The reason I mention the Greek is this, ἑλκύω 'never' means to entice, beguile, woo, etc. (Biblically -or- extra-Biblically), rather, it means to drag, impel, draw by an inward, irresistible force or power, etc. For example, Peter ἑλκύω "drew" his sword .. John 18:10. Paul and Silas were ἑλκύω "dragged" before the authorities in the marketplace .. Acts 16:19.

δελεάζω [deleazo] is the word that means to entice or woo .. e.g. James 1:14.

--- The person might like to forget their first experience, when they were drawn forward, but God doesn’t forget, and He can keep drawing again and again, can He not? Sometimes it takes years for someone with a praying mother or grandmother to finally accept the Lord. --- Everyone is different.

True, some are drawn by God, others are not. Again, the "drawing" spoken of in John 6:44 is not a wooing or an enticement, rather, the drawing of God to salvation is that of an irresistible inner force or power acting upon those who will come to faith in Christ.

--- I agree with you that there are many who believe they are Christians, but who do not know Christ. --- And that is why God is under no obligation to save them, until they come by repentance, or re-dedication to Him.

All are sinners, none are worthy, so God is not "obligated" to save any of us. Rather, we saved because of His merciful and gracious choice to do so alone.

So we continue to give the same message, 'We must accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord and live for Him.'

That is true, 'all' who are drawn by the Father will accept Jesus and live for Him, and He has promised to see all of these "drawn" ones safely through this life to Glory .. e.g. John 6:37-40, 10:26-28, Philippians 1:6, 2:13, Hebrews 7:25, 1 John 5:13.

~Deut