Speaking in tongues

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I would offer "charismata" as unseen spiritual gifts, and not Charismaticism (sign gift as that seen) used to seek after as evidence a person is being filled with the Holy Spirit (no sign gifts signs as wonders) those kind of signs are preserved for those who rebel against being led by the Holy Spirit
Were the first disciples rebels? Were Cornelius and his companions rebels? Were the disciples of John in Acts 19 rebels? Were those in Corinth who were speaking in tongues (even out of order, prior to Paul's correction) rebels? What of those today who don't go out seeking "sign gifts" as you call them, but find them anyway... are they rebels as well?

No, no, no, no, and finally, no.

What is an "unseen spiritual gift" anyway? Which of the many gifts listed in Scripture are "unseen" in your estimation? What distiguishes an unseen gift from a 'seen' gift?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Were the first disciples rebels? Were Cornelius and his companions rebels? Were the disciples of John in Acts 19 rebels? Were those in Corinth who were speaking in tongues (even out of order, prior to Paul's correction) rebels? What of those today who don't go out seeking "sign gifts" as you call them, but find them anyway... are they rebels as well?

No, no, no, no, and finally, no.

What is an "unseen spiritual gift" anyway? Which of the many gifts listed in Scripture are "unseen" in your estimation? What distiguishes an unseen gift from a 'seen' gift?
There's no such thing as operating in a gift 'out of order' prior to correction. There's certainly no out of order prophesy/ no out of order healing/ no out of order teaching-therefore there should be no out of order tongues. All out of order things are devastating. Paul chose to use nice words to tell them "your gifts are not from God, you have another father who is not God" but here, in the world today, i can't use nice words, i'll tell it directly.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Your statement is self-defeating. I'll leave it to you to figure out how.
I have figured it out; There's no such thing as operating in a gift 'out of order' prior to correction.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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The Greek word translated "edifies" in 1 Cor 14 is used at least 11 times in the New Testament. Though the definition given in your first two sentences is acceptably consistent with Scripture, your comments suggest that you want it to mean something different when applied to speaking in tongues. Perhaps you should look up the other uses.
The number of times it is used in the NT does not add value to self edification. Self edification without knowledge would be of little value. If the one speaking in the unknown tongues understands his tongue then he is edified in a more tangible way. The tongue is not edifying to the others present without interpretation. Who would have ever guessed that?

We are not to be wise in our own conceits. Just something to think about.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Were the first disciples rebels? Were Cornelius and his companions rebels? Were the disciples of John in Acts 19 rebels? Were those in Corinth who were speaking in tongues (even out of order, prior to Paul's correction) rebels? What of those today who don't go out seeking "sign gifts" as you call them, but find them anyway... are they rebels as well?

No, no, no, no, and finally, no.

What is an "unseen spiritual gift" anyway? Which of the many gifts listed in Scripture are "unseen" in your estimation? What distiguishes an unseen gift from a 'seen' gift?
LOL Yes, yes , yes, yes and finally yes. Remember we do not wrestle against the things seen but the unseen works of the father of lies in rebellion to the unsen work of God

Ultimately in the end of the matter its how we view faith (the unseen spirit world ) as to where it comes from and how it works in us.

Natural unconverted man has no faith .Not little faith but none in respect to Christianity.

We do not generate our own faith by something we perform and call that the filling of the Holy Spirit. The faith of Christ as that which alone comes from hearing God.... it as it is written leads us not follows after something one can perform .We have a living Hope .In that way who hopes for something we already have

Signs follow after the unseen working of spiritual gifts of God not seen, the Holy Spirit. They never lead. That would be the work of the father of lies which began in the garden when he used a creation seen, to lead mankind to death . no faith in God coming from God not seen

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the "working of Satan" with all power and signs and lying wonders,

God sends those who have no faith coming from His living abiding word a strong delusion so that they can keep on believing the lie.

A person cannot provide their own wonder as a true as a indication of faith working as that not coming from all thing written in the law and the prophets. (sola scriptura)

Again certain sign follow after not lead.

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.Mark 16:18

Taking up the work of false prophets as false prophecy identified with Satan as poison . It will not effect those who walk by the faith that again exclusives come form hearing God through the scripture as the hearing of His faith. They as a sign God not their own selves show working in them they can heal the sick who have not the gospel working in them .

God is not served by human hands in any way shape or from . No outward sign as something we perform required to believe God .

Can't believe God unless he first fills mankind (no faith) with His Holy Spirit the faith of Christ by which we can faith in Christ

They are not something we are required to seek after as sign and wonder with a wonder being a faith principle before ones believes they are filled with the Holy Spirit. (self edification as in false pride)

The unbelieving (no faith) Jew required a sign before they would commit faith. When God spoke to his believing people that did have faith in other languages other than Hebrew alone it was a sign against the sign seeker who had not faith to believe God.

The wonder they created provided there own source of faith not coming from the faith of God not seen., self edification, self veneration, self righteousness. The pride before the fall .

Those who have "no faith" made God out to be a circus seal. They demand show us something work a miracle and then we will beleive .

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Jesus confirmed their unbelief (no faith) as a sign against them >

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.


Two kinds of wonder that produce faith . Wonders that follow after. as a work from God. And lying wonders as a work of Satan that lead a person away from God.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,489
13,797
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LOL Yes, yes , yes, yes and finally yes. Remember we do not wrestle against the things seen but the unseen works of the father of lies in rebellion to the unsen work of God

Ultimately in the end of the matter its how we view faith (the unseen spirit world ) as to where it comes from and how it works in us.

Natural unconverted man has no faith .Not little faith but none in respect to Christianity.

We do not generate our own faith by something we perform and call that the filling of the Holy Spirit. The faith of Christ as that which alone comes from hearing God.... it as it is written leads us not follows after something one can perform .We have a living Hope .In that way who hopes for something we already have

Signs follow after the unseen working of spiritual gifts of God not seen, the Holy Spirit. They never lead. That would be the work of the father of lies which began in the garden when he used a creation seen, to lead mankind to death . no faith in God coming from God not seen

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the "working of Satan" with all power and signs and lying wonders,

God sends those who have no faith coming from His living abiding word a strong delusion so that they can keep on believing the lie.

A person cannot provide their own wonder as a true as a indication of faith working as that not coming from all thing written in the law and the prophets. (sola scriptura)

Again certain sign follow after not lead.

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.Mark 16:18

Taking up the work of false prophets as false prophecy identified with Satan as poison . It will not effect those who walk by the faith that again exclusives come form hearing God through the scripture as the hearing of His faith. They as a sign God not their own selves show working in them they can heal the sick who have not the gospel working in them .

God is not served by human hands in any way shape or from . No outward sign as something we perform required to believe God .

Can't believe God unless he first fills mankind (no faith) with His Holy Spirit the faith of Christ by which we can faith in Christ

They are not something we are required to seek after as sign and wonder with a wonder being a faith principle before ones believes they are filled with the Holy Spirit. (self edification as in false pride)

The unbelieving (no faith) Jew required a sign before they would commit faith. When God spoke to his believing people that did have faith in other languages other than Hebrew alone it was a sign against the sign seeker who had not faith to believe God.

The wonder they created provided there own source of faith not coming from the faith of God not seen., self edification, self veneration, self righteousness. The pride before the fall .

Those who have "no faith" made God out to be a circus seal. They demand show us something work a miracle and then we will beleive .

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Jesus confirmed their unbelief (no faith) as a sign against them >

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.


Two kinds of wonder that produce faith . Wonders that follow after. as a work from God. And lying wonders as a work of Satan that lead a person away from God.
You seem to have overlooked the fact that all these people were saved at the time they spoke in tongues. Given that, the rest of your novel is irrelevant.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,489
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The number of times it is used in the NT does not add value to self edification. Self edification without knowledge would be of little value. If the one speaking in the unknown tongues understands his tongue then he is edified in a more tangible way. The tongue is not edifying to the others present without interpretation. Who would have ever guessed that?

We are not to be wise in our own conceits. Just something to think about.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Your reasoning is circular, and your conclusion is wrong.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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You seem to have overlooked the fact that all these people were saved at the time they spoke in tongues. Given that, the rest of your novel is irrelevant.
The rest of the novel explains... the no faith (not little) but none of the unbelieving (no faith) Jews.


Yes Peter was moved as a unsen gift of God who prophesied the living word of God as a spiritual unseen gift .Prophecy spoken in other languages other that Hebrew a alone God... used to mock (stammering lips ) them who mocked His prophecy. It was a outward sign against the rebelling unbelieving Jew (no faith) who rejected prophecy in exchange for a oral tradition of the fathers called a law of the father .

When God spoke, men with all different languages heard God clearly, They responded with a amen, (we believe the words of God (not of men) . No private interpretation from other men required... a personal relationship walking in agreement as two.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Your reasoning is circular, and your conclusion is wrong.
Conclusion is correct much to your displeasure.

Reasoning is circular because it circles around Christ and the perfect word of God.

Knowledge leading to understanding leading to wisdom. Perfect circle.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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Your reasoning is circular, and your conclusion is wrong.
God's reasoning as His hidden wisdom as a law is circular.. We are instructed to compare the spiritual words of God to the same spiritual words (faith to faith )God . He is the Alfa and Omega the Master of circular reasoning . No man can serve two

The god of this word has a lying cirucular from of reasoning as the wisdom of this world as lying wonders (false source of faith (no faith comeing from hearing God

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Seems to be true ... but how would we know if we were self-edified or not without having the knowledge and understanding to actually know ? Anything's possible Roger :geek:
With God yes but man's knowledge is pitiful and for that reason we must trust Gods word and not our feelings or emotions.

Self edification feels good but quickly passes away like the grass with the scorching of the afternoon sun. Gods word remains forever.

1Pe 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,489
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Conclusion is correct much to your displeasure.

Reasoning is circular because it circles around Christ and the perfect word of God.

Knowledge leading to understanding leading to wisdom. Perfect circle.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
God's reasoning as His hidden wisdom as a law is circular.. We are instructed to compare the spiritual words of God to the same spiritual words (faith to faith )God . He is the Alfa and Omega the Master of circular reasoning . No man can serve two

The god of this word has a lying cirucular from of reasoning as the wisdom of this world as lying wonders (false source of faith (no faith comeing from hearing God

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Neither of you understands the nature of circular reasoning. It's a logical fallacy, making one's arguments invalid.

Neither of you understands the nature of edification (as used in Scripture) because both of you are stuck in tiny boxes of your own making.

That two otherwise-intelligent men can be so stubborn and unwilling to set aside prejudice is remarkable.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Neither of you understands the nature of circular reasoning. It's a logical fallacy, making one's arguments invalid.

Neither of you understands the nature of edification (as used in Scripture) because both of you are stuck in tiny boxes of your own making.

That two otherwise-intelligent men can be so stubborn and unwilling to set aside prejudice is remarkable.
Said the pot to the kettle.

Circular reasoning is not always a logical fallacy. Truth is circular and Jesus is the center of that truth.

You are so biased toward a dis-functional gift that you have lost sight of the real truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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I would offer "charismata" as unseen spiritual gifts, and not Charismaticism (sign gift as that seen) used to seek after as evidence a person is being filled with the Holy Spirit (no sign gifts signs as wonders) those kind of signs are preserved for those who rebel against being led by the Holy Spirit

Even the Son of man refused to be called a daysman as I an infallible fleshly mediator or umpire.... set between God not seen and man seen, with an approval of both . It help us understand God is not a man as us. Job 9:32-33

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:32-33 (Both God and man)

When the Son of man ,Jesus was called good master(Rabbi) knowing no man can serve two he gave glory to God not seen represented by the father. Saying only God (not seen is good} establishing we walk by faith and not by sight as if the kingdom of God did come by observation .In the same way as saying one is our father in heaven and not on earth .It applies to the word Master(Rabbi) or teacher .One is our teacher in heaven typified as a father

We are as new creatures are brothers and sisters and not daysmans as infallible umpires.

Twice to emphasize he uses the phrase one is your Master, even Christ

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Mathew 23:
you can offer anything you like :) the context to 1cor chapter 12-14 ARE seen in those chapters :).
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Said the pot to the kettle.
If you are capable of quoting me where I have engaged circular reasoning, go for it. Otherwise, your assertion is baseless and worthless.

Circular reasoning is not always a logical fallacy. Truth is circular and Jesus is the center of that truth.
Which goes to reinforce my earlier assessment that you don't know what circular reasoning is.

You are so biased toward a dis-functional gift that you have lost sight of the real truth.
You haven't gotten far enough past your own biases to make that determination.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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you can offer anything you like :) the context to 1cor chapter 12-14 ARE seen in those chapters :).
There is a perfect example of circular reasoning. 1 Cor 12-14 are the context to 1 Cor 12-14. And no understanding is edifying. If one feels edified one is edified.

The context of 1 Cor 12-14 must be in agreement with Acts and the rest of scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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If you are capable of quoting me where I have engaged circular reasoning, go for it. Otherwise, your assertion is baseless and worthless.



Which goes to reinforce my earlier assessment that you don't know what circular reasoning is.



You haven't gotten far enough past your own biases to make that determination.
Merely says that I do not agree with your limited and biased definition of circular reasoning. Your opinion is worth no more and no less than any other opinion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Merely says that I do not agree with your limited and biased definition of circular reasoning. Your opinion is worth no more and no less than any other opinion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
As I have not given a definition, it is invalid to call my definition "limited and biased". However, since you are unable to look it up for yourself, here is a definition from Wikipedia, one of many sources on this subject:

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving";[1] also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[2] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.[3] Begging the question is closely related to circular reasoning, and in modern usage the two generally refer to the same thing.[4]