YOKE OF BONDAGE

Dan_473 · Jul 17, 2018

Since you are the authority on posting I am going to follow your format perfectly so maybe you will respond to the actual post.

12 And Saul said, Hear now, thou son of Ahitub. And he answered, Here I am, my lord.
13 And Saul said unto him, Why have ye conspired against me, thou and the son of Jesse, in that thou hast given him bread, and a sword, and hast enquired of God for him, that he should rise against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?
14 Then Ahimelech answered the king, and said, And who is so faithful among all thy servants as David, which is the king's son in law, and goeth at thy bidding, and is honourable in thine house? "David wasn't just anybody, what would you have had the Priest do? was the Law intended to help people or hurt them. Is it just coincidence that David was from the tribe of Judah, not Levi, yet he was given the showbread by the High Priest, same as Jesus?15 Did I then begin to enquire of God for him? be it far from me: let not the king impute any thing unto his servant, nor to all the house of my father: for thy servant knew nothing of all this, less or more.16 And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father's house. "So if you believe in the Pharisees, and King Saul, which had the same spirit, you would declare as you do, that David and the Priest sinned. If that's what the spirit on you teaches these scriptures are about, then so be it. I don't believe the Word which became Flesh created this "Example" for my admonition, to teach me to reject God's Commandments, or create my own religious traditions, or to use it to make Void all His other Words, before and after, regarding His Holy Sabbath.22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

So you answer a question. In your understanding of the God of Abraham, did He create the Priesthood and the Priesthood duties to help His People, or to rule over them?

I find it absolutely fascinating how far men in the Bible went to preserve their own religion. Saul tried to kill David, The Pharisees killed their own Messiah, all to preserve their own religious traditions and doctrines.

In your zeal to do the same thing, I fear you have missed the most important lesson Jesus created for us in these examples. And it wasn't to teach us it's OK to transgress His Commandments. IMO.

unfortunately, the part where you quote me in the quote box is not done correctly. Would you like help?
"The duty of Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest shall be the oil for the light, the sweet incense, the continual meal offering, and the anointing oil, the requirements of all the tabernacle, and of all that is in it, the sanctuary, and its furnishings." 17 The LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 18 "Do not cut off the tribe of the families of the Kohathites from among the Levites; 19but thus do to them, that they may live, and not die, when they approach to the most holy things: Aaron and his sons shall go in, and appoint them everyone to his service and to his burden; 20 but they shall not go in to see the sanctuary even for a moment, lest they die."

Dan_473 · Jul 17, 2018

Studyman said:

Since you are the authority on posting I am going to follow your format perfectly so maybe you will respond to the actual post.

12 And Saul said, Hear now, thou son of Ahitub. And he answered, Here I am, my lord.
13 And Saul said unto him, Why have ye conspired against me, thou and the son of Jesse, in that thou hast given him bread, and a sword, and hast enquired of God for him, that he should rise against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?
14 Then Ahimelech answered the king, and said, And who is so faithful among all thy servants as David, which is the king's son in law, and goeth at thy bidding, and is honourable in thine house? "David wasn't just anybody, what would you have had the Priest do? was the Law intended to help people or hurt them. Is it just coincidence that David was from the tribe of Judah, not Levi, yet he was given the showbread by the High Priest, same as Jesus?15 Did I then begin to enquire of God for him? be it far from me: let not the king impute any thing unto his servant, nor to all the house of my father: for thy servant knew nothing of all this, less or more.16 And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou, and all thy father's house. "So if you believe in the Pharisees, and King Saul, which had the same spirit, you would declare as you do, that David and the Priest sinned. If that's what the spirit on you teaches these scriptures are about, then so be it. I don't believe the Word which became Flesh created this "Example" for my admonition, to teach me to reject God's Commandments, or create my own religious traditions, or to use it to make Void all His other Words, before and after, regarding His Holy Sabbath.22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

So you answer a question. In your understanding of the God of Abraham, did He create the Priesthood and the Priesthood duties to help His People, or to rule over them?

I find it absolutely fascinating how far men in the Bible went to preserve their own religion. Saul tried to kill David, The Pharisees killed their own Messiah, all to preserve their own religious traditions and doctrines.

In your zeal to do the same thing, I fear you have missed the most important lesson Jesus created for us in these examples. And it wasn't to teach us it's OK to transgress His Commandments. IMO.

I would also add that I am not in a thority on posting, but that I can see a post that was not done correctly. when used the way it was designed, the quoting system is of great benefit to all the users here on CC.

Dan_473 · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

That's an interesting point!

posthuman · Jul 17, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

You said he obeyed God's Law and Commandments. Tzitzit is a commandment of God, part of the Law.

So Abraham didn't keep all God's Laws? What are you saying.

prove-all · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

You should know that the Sabbath day lasted long after the wilderness,
and long after they went into the promised land.

What was the purpose, that God had in "gaving them" the Manna?

Exo 16:4 Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you;
and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, [that I may prove them],
whether they [will walk in my law, or not].
-
And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years
in the wilderness, to humble thee, [and to prove thee], to know what was in thine heart,
whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not. Deuteronomy 8:2

--that [He may prove them], whether they would [walk in His law, or not].
the Sabbath was already in effect at that time, that He was to test them.

"But lusted exceedingly in the wilderness, And tested God in the desert.

What did the manna "teach"

And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna,
which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know;

that he might make thee know [that man doth not live by bread only],
but by everything that proceedeth out of the mouth of Jehovah doth man live.

--to teach that man doth not live by bread alone,......

God tested them for 40 years to humble them to see what was in their hearts.
that they should live by every word (10 commandments spoken by Gods own mouth)
not by bread alone.

But man seems to reject the Sabbaths of God.

“Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, As in the day of trial in the wilderness,

Studyman · Jul 17, 2018

Dan_473 said:

continuing on
I believe you asked why I thought of certain laws that were never directed towards me to be a burden. but this raises the question we had talked about earlier, what laws are directed towards me? I would say this one, love your neighbor as yourself. Or, love one another as Jesus loved us.

What’s God going to say to my questions? I’m braced for the worst.
I’ll climb to the lookout tower and scan the horizon.
I’ll wait to see what God says,
how he’ll answer my complaint.

Full of Self, but Soul-Empty

2-3 And then God answered: “Write this.
Write what you see.
Write it out in big block letters
so that it can be read on the run.
This vision-message is a witness
pointing to what’s coming.
It aches for the coming—it can hardly wait!
And it doesn’t lie.
If it seems slow in coming, wait.
It’s on its way. It will come right on time.

4 “Look at that man, bloated by self-importance—
full of himself but soul-empty.
But the person in right standing before God
through loyal and steady believing
is fully alive, really alive.

5-6 “Note well: Money deceives.
The arrogant rich don’t last.
They are more hungry for wealth
than the grave is for cadavers.
Like death, they always want more,
but the ‘more’ they get is dead bodies.
They are cemeteries filled with dead nations,
graveyards filled with corpses.
Don’t give people like this a second thought.
Soon the whole world will be taunting them
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk2&version=MSG
are there other laws you feel we should live by? what are they? Perhaps you could list them? Or shall we live by faith?

Man should live by Faith in the Word which became Flesh, as did Abraham, our example of faith.

prove-all · Jul 17, 2018

And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was made for man

justpassinthrough · Jul 17, 2018

gb9 said:

All the law is summed up in these two commandments:

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40

Love does no harm.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Love is the sum of His commandments.

If we murder our neighbor, do we love him?

If we worship other gods, is that loving God?

If we steal from our neighbor, is that love?

If we make carved images and bow down to them, is that loving God?

If we are coveting our neighbors things, that is idolatry.

Loving God and loving our neighbor, is a choice.

Love requires obeying; if you love me, keep my commandments.

We love God, by obeying His command to love our neighbor.

20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.
1 John 4:20-21

On the Day of Judgement you and I will be judged according to our deeds, on we demonstarted love towards God, by how we showed love to people.

Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ Matthew 25;34-40

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

I'm demonstrating the obedience of faith, which is the context for the entire book of Romans, that Paul states in Romans 16:26, as well as what James teaches, by illustrating the life of Abraham.

We see this principle in all of Paul's writings.

The obedience of faith; the principle of how faith works.

A faith that [obeys] works is a faith that works [functions].

The obedience of faith is what I am promoting.

This is the law of faith.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. Romans 3:27-31

By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The obedience of faith, of course is not the "works" of the law, which Paul declared at the beginning and end of Romans, as "bookends" that bracket the entire book of Romans, and establish the foundation of it's context.

All throughout Romans you will find this principle expounded upon by Paul.

Faith comes to a person when they hear God speak to them, however that faith must be activated in order to produce the intended divine result, otherwise it remains incomplete. Romans 10:17

James explains -

by works faith was made [complete] perfect

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

James 2:21-22

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac

The "works" James is describing is the work or action of obedience.

Not the works of the law
Not good works
Not works that earn a wage

The work here that James is referring to is the work of obedience.

Works = The effort obedience requires.

James says that faith without this corresponding action of obedience, is dormant; inactive.

Just like a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without this obedience is dead, and is unable to produce the intended divine result.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James 2:26

So the component of the Gospel that activates the faith we receive by hearing the Gospel is for us to obey the Gospel.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

I agree with him, and I understand what he is saying.

He is "refreshing" their understanding of the commandments, emphasizing that they represent love.

Can you see that he says these words? - I write no new commandment to you...

I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:3-11

JPT

posthuman · Jul 17, 2018

i write these things because the scripture says do not let anyone judge you over sabbaths because they are a shadow & the body is Christ.
not because i teach against sabbath - not because of any habit of my own, which if you want to know, what i do personally, pm me - i write because there is an attitude of condemnation against brothers and sisters who 'consider each day alike' and i would plead their cause rather than stand idly by.

((probably ultimately useless attempt to prevent false accusations & slander))

prove-all said:

as far as the record of the scripture goes, sabbath observation is not found before Exodus 16. that God blessed the 7th day - in the context of creation - isn't a command for anyone to do likewise any more than the rest of Genesis 1-2 is a command for us to create universes and creatures. the text simply isn't in imperative form; it's descriptive.

what was the outcome of the purpose of the sabbath given in Exodus 16?

But they did not listen to Moses, and some left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.

(Exodus 16:20)

they failed the 'proof' immediately.

in Ezekiel 20:12 and 31:13 we read again His purpose: that He gave them sabbaths in order that they might know He is the LORD who sanctifies them.
in the same context of that express purpose, also in Ezekiel we read this extremely marvelous thing:

I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands, because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers. I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live
(Ezekiel 20:23-25)

He gave them statutes and ordinances that were not good ((what??!!))
He did it because they were disobedient and profaned His sabbaths, with eyes toward the idols of their fathers.

well, it's interesting that at the very first mention of the giving of a sabbath observation ordinance, on the very first mention in the Bible of a sabbath that had been commanded to be observed, some of the people disobeyed and profaned it. just before ((how long before? one week?)) the giving of the Law and just after all the people were grumbling about food, accusing God of evil, wishing they could go back to Egypt - where coincidentally their fathers had lived, where the idols of their fathers were.

seems related.

He swore to them that the curse of the Law would come on them if they did not obey it - a Law He gave them after the test of the manna sabbath. Moses's attitude at that time? what am I to do with this people! God's attitude? no one but Moses and Aaron were to approach Mt. Sinai, else they would perish: God would destroy them.

how are these things related?
did God ever intend for the Law to lead to righteousness, or to prove that man needs God - that God must be the one who sanctifies?
what are the statutes and ordinances He gave them that were 'not good' for gaining life by, and when did He give them?

this is a far, far more complex and wonderful thing than i think most of the discussion supposes.

posthuman · Jul 17, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

JESUS OF NAZARETH calls a certain commandment 'new'

you're saying you agree with John.

what about Jesus?
Jesus does not say 'I'm refreshing you on an old commandment' or 'I'm giving you an old commandment again'
He says "new"

posthuman · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

is John talking about the same commandment? what does John mean by 'old' and what does he mean by 'the message you have heard since the beginning'?

John does not contradict Jesus.

Jesus gives "a new commandment" in John 13:34.
John says something is the message heard since the beginning, and immediately brings up Cain.
is John talking about Leviticus?
is John talking about what Jesus is talking about?
John says not new. Jesus says new.

i'm asking about 'new'

justpassinthrough · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

I quoted Genesis 26:4-5

because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

Please show me from Genesis where it says Abraham wore Tzitzit.

It was a part of the law of Moses that was added, 430 years after Abraham received the Covenant, "till" the Seed should come.

Genesis was not part of the law of Moses, but it is a part of the Torah.

It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

By saying "added", the Holy Spirit is indicating it was a part of something greater.

The Abrahamic covenant is what became the "New" Covenant, being "refreshed" by Jesus after He became flesh, in order to shed His blood.

It was the Lord Jesus who made Covenant with Abraham, before He became flesh.

Abraham walked by faith with the Lord; the same Lord we do.

Abraham demonstrated what is is to walk by faith, leaving for us an example of the obedience of faith.

Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

Ok.

Please quote the scripture so we can examine the context and the words Jesus used.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jul 17, 2018

posthuman said:

i write these things because the scripture says do not let anyone judge you over sabbaths because they are a shadow & the body is Christ.
not because i teach against sabbath - not because of any habit of my own, which if you want to know, what i do personally, pm me - i write because there is an attitude of condemnation against brothers and sisters who 'consider each day alike' and i would plead their cause rather than stand idly by.

Amen.

I'm with you.

JPT

prove-all · Jul 18, 2018

posthuman said:

Over and over God says my statutes and judgments, and my Sabbaths.
Are you implying Gods statues and judgement's are not good ?

24Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes,
and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

25Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good,
and judgments whereby they should not live;

26And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through
the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the
end that they might know that I am the Lord.

Might want to read the rest of the chapter and there fathers tradations.
in verse 24, the "statues and judgement's and Gods Sabbaths"are
not the same as therefore "also statues" mentioned in verse 25. "
-

If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully
— He is just; He shall surely live!” Says the Lord God. Ezekiel 18:9

“Oh, that My people would listen to Me, That Israel would walk in My ways!

Ezekiel 20:21 ..the children rebelled against me,”
“They polluted [MY sabbaths].…”

He scattered them, in national captivity and slavery (verse 23).
“Because they had not executed MY judgments, but had despised MY statutes,
and had polluted MY sabbaths, and their eyes were after their FATHERS’ idols”

“And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries
wherein ye are scattered…with fury poured out. And I will bring you into
the wilderness of the people [coming exodus—Jeremiah 23:7-8],

and there will I plead with you face to face” (Ezekiel 20:34-35).
“Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt,

SO will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.…
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress
against me… and YE shall know that I am the Lord” (verses 36-38).

43And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled;
and ye shall [lothe yourselves] in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.

44And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake,
not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel,
saith the Lord God.

Ezekiel 36

21But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned
among the heathen, whither they went.Therefore say unto the house of Israel,

Thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but
for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen,
which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that
I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you,
and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will
take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and [cause you to walk] in [my statutes],
and ye[ shall] keep [my judgments], and do them.

28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God. 29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:

and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye
shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good,
and [shall lothe yourselves] in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

38As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts;
so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship
before me, saith the Lord.

prove-all · Jul 18, 2018

He “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it”!
What does “sanctified” mean? Look in your dictionary.

It means “set apart, for holy use or purpose.” He set apart this day
from other days—set it apart for holy use—for a day of physical
rest, in which His people may assemble and worship God!

So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was,
He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths
reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

posthuman · Jul 18, 2018

prove-all said:

you quoted it; it's written.

what are these statutes and ordinances He gave that were 'not good' and when did He give them?

posthuman · Jul 18, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

Not you, it's this other dude who has been constantly slandering me for the last year.

YOKE OF BONDAGE

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member