God sending People He made and loves to the lake of fire.

[notuptome]

No Not all scholars accept that view, and even if he did exist so what? His resurrection cannot be proven outside of the bible. Even Paul said that if Christ did not raise, then it was all pointless.

Of course you gotta live by faith.

It goes like this:

Hey, would you like to go to heaven when you die?

Whats heaven?

Oh well, you know, it is the place where the born again Christians will spend eternity.

How do you know that?

The bible tells me so.

OK, how does it work?

Ok, you have to believe everything the bible says, you have to accept Jesus' gift of grace and salvation by acknowledging he died for your sins since you can't possibly be good and moral on your own, and you cannot ever question anything. I know it does not make complete sense, but have faith, it is all true. Also, you must change who you are, completely.

OK, well how will I know I'm saved?

Well, you gotta have faith and you will know once you die.

Oh, ok, so I won't know for sure, until I die, but while I am alive I have to change everything about me and blindly believe an ancient book that isn't as inerrant as everyone believes?

Yeah, that's right!

So where does your hope lie? When this life is over and the worms consume your flesh is that all there is? Your secular scholars are depending on it.

By the way genuine Christians know they are going to heaven now they only wait for death to set foot in heaven.

The greatest scientific minds of our time cannot comprehend existence beyond this life. They can speculate of life on other worlds but cannot reason that life continues after death.

You distain Christians for blind faith yet you place all your expectations in men who have demonstrated they are more often wrong then they are proven correct. Who really has blind faith?

If Jesus was not who He said He was He long would have faded into the obscurity of history. That is the fate of all men who are only men.

There is nary a place on the Earth where the name of Jesus has not been known.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Seedz]

So where does your hope lie? When this life is over and the worms consume your flesh is that all there is? Your secular scholars are depending on it.

By the way genuine Christians know they are going to heaven now they only wait for death to set foot in heaven.

The greatest scientific minds of our time cannot comprehend existence beyond this life. They can speculate of life on other worlds but cannot reason that life continues after death.

You distain Christians for blind faith yet you place all your expectations in men who have demonstrated they are more often wrong then they are proven correct. Who really has blind faith?

If Jesus was not who He said He was He long would have faded into the obscurity of history. That is the fate of all men who are only men.

There is nary a place on the Earth where the name of Jesus has not been known.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I don't claim to know, unlike you.

They have been deluded into knowing these things, specially those who were raised on these beliefs like I was.

It's quite unhealthy for a child to wrap his head around "Sin", "Hell", and "Devils". Etc.. I know it messed me up.

I am not your mainstream "secular" individual. I acknowledge that humans are spiritual beings of some sort, and there is a chance that there is a life or reality that continues beyond this plane of existence.

I am not putting any faith on anyone. I am using common sense.

Let me give you an example:

Why did God need a human blood sacrifice of his own son (or himself in the flesh) to forgive humanity for doing nothing more than existing? When in fact humanity only allegedly exists because he created them? Not only did he create them, but if he is an omniscient God he knew they were going to mess up and still created them anyway? On top of that, if you fall under the calvanistic interpretation of scripture, then he continues to create millions of people knowing full well that they are all destined to burn.

uhhhh.... Yeah.. Why not just forgive them or eradicate sin completely?

Didn't God create all things? Wouldn't that include sin?

 

[Seedz]

So where does your hope lie? When this life is over and the worms consume your flesh is that all there is? Your secular scholars are depending on it.

By the way genuine Christians know they are going to heaven now they only wait for death to set foot in heaven.

The greatest scientific minds of our time cannot comprehend existence beyond this life. They can speculate of life on other worlds but cannot reason that life continues after death.

You distain Christians for blind faith yet you place all your expectations in men who have demonstrated they are more often wrong then they are proven correct. Who really has blind faith?

If Jesus was not who He said He was He long would have faded into the obscurity of history. That is the fate of all men who are only men.

There is nary a place on the Earth where the name of Jesus has not been known.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You forget that a whole pagan empire was backing Jesus' story...

 

[NayborBear]

Whether you know it or not? Whether you believe it, or not? We ALL, each and every ONE of us, have TWO (count 'em) TWO bodies! One is obviously, this flesh body! The "other" is our "Spiritual" body. The "reprobate" (unacceptable) mind, of the "flesh" body, can, in no wise, comprehend, let alone embrace this concept! This "darkness" that this unacceptableness embraces, TURNS the flesh body, every which way AGAINST "The WAY, The TRUTH, AND, The Light" Which, can ONLY come, from ones' "accepting" the "condition", found in the last part of John 3:16! WHOSOEVER BELIEVES! So you see? It IS correct that Jesus can, and WILL save the WHOLE world! But, NOT UNCONDITIONALLY! One HAS to FIRST BELIEVE!!

 

[Seedz]

Whether you know it or not? Whether you believe it, or not? We ALL, each and every ONE of us, have TWO (count 'em) TWO bodies! One is obviously, this flesh body! The "other" is our "Spiritual" body. The "reprobate" (unacceptable) mind, of the "flesh" body, can, in no wise, comprehend, let alone embrace this concept! This "darkness" that this unacceptableness embraces, TURNS the flesh body, every which way AGAINST "The WAY, The TRUTH, AND, The Light" Which, can ONLY come, from ones' "accepting" the "condition", found in the last part of John 3:16! WHOSOEVER BELIEVES! So you see? It IS correct that Jesus can, and WILL save the WHOLE world! But, NOT UNCONDITIONALLY! One HAS to FIRST BELIEVE!!

And how do you know this?

 

[NayborBear]

And how do you know this?

Well? It took me a while, but after sifting through countless and many various "shades of gray?" Of which, "evil" is the perpetrator of? I have satan to thank actually! For his showing me that evil DOES INDEED exist! Therefore? Any, and ALL arguments, pertaining to some NON-EXISTANT God? BECAME "null and void!" And, in my CHOOSING to BELIEVE in Christ? I have, and am enduring, long sufferingly, persecutions, BECAUSE of my choosing TO believe! Of, the which I rejoice in! THIS, is not only the HOW, I know this...It's also the WHY I STILL believe!

 

[Seedz]

Well? It took me a while, but after sifting through countless and many various "shades of gray?" Of which, "evil" is the perpetrator of? I have satan to thank actually! For his showing me that evil DOES INDEED exist! Therefore? Any, and ALL arguments, pertaining to some NON-EXISTANT God? BECAME "null and void!" And, in my CHOOSING to BELIEVE in Christ? I have, and am enduring, long sufferingly, persecutions, BECAUSE of my choosing TO believe! Of, the which I rejoice in! THIS, is not only the HOW, I know this...It's also the WHY I STILL believe!

So Satan is evil and since evil is evident that means God is real according to the bible?

I can say something like; If God is real, and he has the power to avoid calamity in people's lives, why doesn't he just keep everyone safe instead of allowing these people to suffer? If that is the case, then God is the evil one since he is the one calling the shots. No?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'm sorry you went to all the trouble to post all of those. I cant go answer them all at once. If you would like to break it down one or two at a time I would be happy to show you how you change scripture I will start with the first one.

You say he will then you say He won't. You 100% stated a contradiction.
And you don't even appear to be aware of it.

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours
only but also for the whole world.

The "not for ours only" is the believers
the "whole world" is believers and non believers combined.
Its a no brainer. Omg. A little child could see it for what it obviously says,
If God actually cast people into hell, those that change the words in scripture would be the first to go.
But He doesn't, so you are safe. : )

Chuckyz2,

"Whoever has the Son has life. But whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." - John 3:36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come." - Rev.17:8

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Rev.20:15

No one is changing the words in the scriptures. What is happening here, is that you are applying scriptures without taking into consideration the whole word of God.

For example, we already have scripture which tells us that when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age there will be a judgment of the sheep and the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and they will enter into the millennial kingdom. And to the goats on His left, He will say "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Since it is already written that the goats will go into everlasting fire, how can you say that God will not cast people into Hell? We also have the rich man whom Jesus spoke of who when he died went to Hades where he was in torment in flame and who still there as I write this. Where do you think that Pharaoh went? Where do you think the man of lawlessness and the false prophet will end up?

"But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. - Rev.19:20

How about all of those people who will end up worshiping the beast and receiving his mark? Scripture states that they will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb and that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night. Does that sound like they are saved?

You are not rightly dividing the word of God by not including other the scriptures that say that there is punishment in the lake of fire for those whose names will not be found written in the book of life. And we know from the scripture above that there are names that will have not been written in the book of life.

All sin must be accounted for because as king David understood, all sin is against God. For those who have faith in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. For those who reject Christ, they will die in their sins and they will be held accountable for their own sins.

Your teachings make you a false teacher and therefore you yourself are in danger of separation from God. Repent and stop teaching these lies!

 

[PennEd]

So Satan is evil and since evil is evident that means God is real according to the bible?

I can say something like; If God is real, and he has the power to avoid calamity in people's lives, why doesn't he just keep everyone safe instead of allowing these people to suffer? If that is the case, then God is the evil one since he is the one calling the shots. No?

Hello. I posed these questions in the other thread to you. I hold out hope because you claim the reason you are here is to see if your "faith" can be rekindled. It is starting to appear that is not your intent as you are becoming more and more combative. Can you please read your post and my response:
YOUR POST
Sir, with all due respect, you haven't got an idea of what my Christian life was like. Not only did I believe with all of my being that Jesus had conquered death and payed the ultimate price for my sins, but that I also was his child. I was the child of God, bought by the blood of his son. I knew I was saved, and I knew that I was a new creature in Christ. I took this knowledge of truth and I couldn't resist telling everyone of the good news. I felt as if I was different. I felt as if I had been made a new creature. The more I learned about Jesus and God, the more I fell in love with him. There was no doubt in my mind as to the validity of the bible or of the existence of the God of the bible.

As I grew older, I realized that life was not an easy journey. I saw births, deaths, birthdays, marriages, and divorces. I went to college, traveled a bit and realized that this world was not a small one by any means. Then it hit me, out of all the long term friends that I had collected, most of them were in one way or another "Christians". Of course you can say that no one really knows if they were born again but God himself, and while that is true, most of these people were good people. They cared about their faith and about their impact on society. They truly wanted to love their neighbor and share the love that the father had once shared with them.

As time went on, these people struggled in general. All of the pastors that had become friends of mine and my family's hit rocky patches. This was a sobering moment for me. These people that I once thought of as righteous before God's eyes demonstrated to just be normal human beings. I know that as a child a particular picture is painted in your head as to what it means to be a man of God, a Christian. Obviously these were all Child like thoughts and I was now leaving that behind, I realized that God must know their hearts and it is up to him to judge, not me.

I continued in the faith, growing physically, and also growing spiritually. I also had rough areas, but I overcame all obstacles, I knew that God was faithful to forgive my transgressions because I had accepted the gift of grace given to me in the form of Jesus Christ on the Cross. I knew that this is what being born again is. You are no longer a child of the world, but a Child of the Lord.

Not only did I talk the talk, but I walked the walked. I really shaped my lifestyle to line up with my faith and my new way of being. I let the "Holy Spirit" guide my every move. I knew that God was right there, next to me. I wanted and prayed for his will to be done in my life, for him to finish the work he started in me. Prayed for the fruits of the spirit, etc.

One day, I realized that Solomon was right. The evil doers receive good things, the righteous are kicked in the dirt. Everything was vain. All the work that I had ever done was vain. All the things I'd ever aspired to do were pointless. Nothing mattered in this world because at the end we all died and decomposed in the dirt. However, I knew that I would reign one day with Christ, so that's what i had to look forward to.

I then became OBSESSED with finding more truth. I wanted to know how the prophets and the Law aligned with the new testament. I wanted to know how this cosmic composition so wonderfully and amazingly perfectly aligned with itself. A book with 40 authors, spanning over 1500 years, written across many different lands and cultures ended up here, on my desk at home. I then realized that Christianity completely revolves around this book. It is almost as if its Bliblianity, rather than Christianity.

I began to notice that Doctrine and tradition are what made people act the way they acted. I realized that there were hundreds of different views, and assemblies in the forms of denominations. I realized that very few "Christians" agreed with each other. Why would God leave a book that is meant to unite and teach his people about him, cause so much division. Why is it that when I present something I learned from the word to a pastor, or fellow Christian friend, they tell me that I did not interpret that correctly? Why is it that I started to discover apparent contradictions that no one had ever mentioned to me before?

Something was up. Either I was in the wrong Church, or maybe this bible was not as crystal clear as I once thought. I kept praying, I kept asking God and the Holy Spirit for guidance. I fasted, and prayed. Fasted some more, and prayed some more. I sought advice from my closest Christian friends and relatives, we shared meals and lots of coffee, discussing these matters.

One day, about to finish a 5 day fast, I realized something......

There is no one Christianity. Yes, most agree in the basic concepts of Jesus' death and resurrection, being born again, faith, etc...
But when it came to the details, NO ONE AGREES. Even in minute details.

So this lead me to research more and more. Until I finally realized that there is no way that the most intelligent and magnificent being that created this whole reality would want to divide its people. On the contrary, he is a being of unity. Everything in nature points to unity. His finger print is unity. The human race has long drifted from that. There is a problem with the world and the influence on humanity.

Christians call that Satan. I call it something else now.

Modern Christianity was just another structured separation scheme. Nothing in it pointed to what actually made sense. All the wars, the disagreements, ETC... I could not take it anymore and I decided to look at material produced by secular scholars as well as Christian scholars.

I eventually stopped praying, and stopped seeking God. I realized that it did not made a difference on my well being. In fact, I feel liberated and happier now that I know that God probably isn't up there blotting out names...

If I am saved I am saved, If I am not then I guess I am not.
Click to expand...
I think it's always valuable to ascertain, rather than assign, the motives of people. I have too often done the latter. Understand that many, if not most atheists or former believers come here to stir up trouble, or worse, are led by an unclean spirit to attempt to cast doubt in the minds of baby Christians or the honest skeptics.
MY RESPONSE
I don't know what your motives for spending your time and your Saturday afternoon on a website dedicated to worshiping our Lord, and building each other up in Him is. I will take your word that you are here to see if there is any faith that can be rekindled.

Now, you say you are not an atheist, but no longer a Christian. So what exactly do you no longer believe? Is Jesus the Son of God, and do you believe He died for our sins and rose again from the dead?

You "knew" you were saved? Well this is what Scripture says about those who say they were saved but no longer believe:
1 John 2:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.


It is tragic that Christians CAN'T live up to our expectations of who we thought they were, or should be, or act like. Part of your journey of failing faith seems to have occurred because of what HUMANS have done. HUMANS will always disappoint us. That's why our faith must be COMPLETELY Rooted In Jesus alone.

One day you realized Solomon was right, and this had a profound effect upon your faith? Of course Solomon is right! Here we have the Wisest human who ever lived, understand with massive human FLESHLY intellect, that ALL is vain. Solomon represents the pinnacle of HUMAN achievement. THE goal of our fleshly human mind. His life and story is vital for us to understand WITHOUT God, and WITHOUT a Hope in eternal life through His Son, all of our existence is nothing more than a puff of smoke. This realization should drive us CLOSER to God not further away.

Biblianity? No. We just understand what, or rather WHO the Word is:
John 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 4:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 For the WORD of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Bible was not written to unite humanity. But to give humanity a hope of redemption. More than 95% of It deals with redeeming fallen human beings. It is a love story. Written in Blood on a Cross.

I pray to The Heavenly Father in His Son's precious Name, that you ARE here to recapture the love you say you had for Him, and the joy in that knowledge gives you an deeper, more inexpressible love for Him and others.

 

[OstrichSmiling]

You forget that a whole pagan empire was backing Jesus' story...

Please elaborate.

 

[notuptome]

You forget that a whole pagan empire was backing Jesus' story...

God is not able to use Rome for His purpose? God uses the evil unsaved man to accomplish that which glorifies God. God even allows wicked evil scientists to look deep into Gods creation. They then prove themselves to be fools of their own wisdom. Science offers so really extreme explanations to things much greater than their finite minds can comprehend.

Ps 131:1 « A Song of degrees of David. » LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

Ps 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

Pr 24:7 Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[NayborBear]

So Satan is evil and since evil is evident that means God is real according to the bible?

I can say something like; If God is real, and he has the power to avoid calamity in people's lives, why doesn't he just keep everyone safe instead of allowing these people to suffer? If that is the case, then God is the evil one since he is the one calling the shots. No?

Sure! You can say something like that, concerning God, and His "protecting" His children. But, you would then be showing how "little" your mind is comprehending the roughly 80-95% of that "grey matter" in between your own ears. It "seems" many MANY people, regard "Christianity" as some kind of "free-ride!" With Jesus, and His God and Father "pulling the wagon!" And ALL "you" HAVE to do is simply "enjoy!"

I can "see" how you might say, as many might say, that God, is the EVIL one! But, would not a good, gracious, and loving Father, at least TRY to impart upon his own children, that "there's a LOT of BAD, EVIL AND DARKNESS in the world?" And, what KIND of Father WOULD I be, if I didn't teach "you" concerning that, and "equip" you with the "SKILL SET" that is "needed", in the combating OF it?" "To the BEST of MY abilities?" "Both, in defending, AND contending?" "As far as Loyalty goes?" "I HAVE all the angels, I NEED, that are MOST loyal!" "SHOULD I need MORE?" "I"LL create 'em!" "What I MOST want from my children, is their "choosing" to be "loyal" TO me!" So, yes! What one might "see", as far as one may, that God is EVIL? Another might "see" it as God's ATTEMPTING to prepare His children, "adopted, or Jew", in the spiritual warfare AGAINST such an AVOWED enemy, who has set in motion such a treacherous CONSPIRICY, in the usurping Him FROM His Throne!

 

[Jimbone]

How is Christ evidence though? How? The bible tells us of Christ. That's pretty much it, with a random source here and there, but nothing concrete and contemporary.

Look, if you think you know better than I as far as what I hate or not, go ahead. Knock yourself out.

You obviously forget that I am not a pissed off 16 year old that hates the world and never really bothered to learn about God and who he is through his word.

I have made my own decisions and I just do not see how Christianity could be true, at least in this modern context that we find ourselves.

OK, please show me these numerous sources. I was not aware that Jesus had accounts far more numerous than that of Tiberius. Cus you know, Tiberius had coins with his face on them.... I mean, that alone is far more tangible than the lopsided and biased accounts found in the biblical texts, of which the NT was composed much later and by more people that never met or talked to Jesus than those that did, not to mention the fact that in the early days no one could agree on what scripture was "true".

Jewish sources


Josephus Flavius - this Jewish writer from the 1st century attests to an important fact that James, the brother of Jesus, was martyred. In his work Antiquities 20 v.9


The Talmud makes several references to Jesus.


•Jesus as a sorcerer with disciples (b Sanh 43a-b)


•Healing in the name of Jesus (Hul 2:22f; AZ 2:22/12; y Shab 124:4/13; QohR 1:8; b AZ 27b)


•As a torah teacher (b AZ 17a; Hul 2:24; QohR 1:8)


•As a son or disciple that turned out badly (Sanh 103a/b; Ber 17b)


•As a frivolous disciple who practiced magic and turned to idolatry (Sanh 107b; Sot 47a)


•Jesus’ punishment in afterlife (b Git 56b, 57a)


•Jesus’ execution (b Sanh 43a-b)


•Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)





Roman sources

Cornelius Tacitus

Tacitus refers to Jesus, Pontius Pilate, Jesus’ execution, and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (written 116 AD). In Annals Book 15, Chapter 44 and reads “Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also.”
Which supports the claims of the Christian even while being antagonistic towards Christians.


Gaius Suetonius
in his work the ‘Lives of the Twelve Caesars’ we see a reference to Jesus, as well as the early Christians: “He expelled from Rome the Jews constantly making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (is thought to be him misspelling Cristus, but still is talking about Christians none the less)”.

Mara Serapion

Serapion was a stoic philosopher from the Roman province of Syria, and in a letter (70 – 200 AD) he authored from prison to his son arguably refers to Jesus, indirectly. It’s worth quoting in full:

“What advantage did the Athenians gain from murdering Socrates? Famine and plague came upon them as a punishment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand.What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?

It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the “new law” he laid down.”





Pliny the Younger
(Epistulae X.96) to Emperor Trajan around 112 AD asking for advice on how to deal with Christians:

“They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.”


After this there are the gnostic sources. There are a few after the 27 New Testament letters that all count. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence for "Christianity" outside the bible, you've just been made to believe this much evidence is "nothing", again I want to make clear I am by no means saying this "proves" Jesus true or false, it's just the evidence overwhelmingly supports the claims when looked at from a neutral position.

Info from http://reasonsforjesus.com/

 

[NayborBear]

If I may add to my reply "seedz." Telling people about Christ, and endeavoring in the Great Commission? Is but a "part" of being a Christian! There IS more! MUCH MORE! Most Christians, don't even realize "a", "when", they are being "confessed before the Father", let alone, of what transpires AFTER they have been confessed before the Father! As for you? I see you banging your head against a "proverbial wall." Or, have encountered a "glass ceiling" of sorts. Where, you can "see" a "something more", but, haven't quite figured a way "there", as yet! What I "see" is the Father trying to "harvest" you! Yet, you won't "let HIM in! And I AIN'T talking about Jesus! Because, it seems you "see" this "harvesting", as many Christians do! As, it comes at the END, of the "age!" Although, it doesn't specify "WHICH" AGE! You would be doing yourself a HUGE BENEFIT, and others, in a "realization", or cogniznence, in thinking more of a "transition" FROM earth age TO Heaven age, while YET, in this earth age! As your "Spiritual body" is probably moaning and groaning for more "room to grow" in your flesh body! May seem, or even "feel" like you are dying, and, in a sense, you are! Is called "circumcision of the heart!" And, it DOES hurt!

 

[Jimbone]

@ Seedz

After I posted all that I was thinking, it wasn't all these facts that open my eyes to truth, a was amazed at how much all the evidence did support the biblical narrative after God changed me, but I truly believe no amount of "old men's writings" or age of the earth debates could have ever "convinced" me of God, nor can they convince you. The real problem is you cannot think or see outside the flesh. You think the only valid answer can come from what we see, taste, touch, hear, and smell, but that just is not so. What is born of flesh seeks flesh, that which is born of spirit seeks things of the Spirit. One must be born again to understand these things. That involves turning form "your way", and submitting your will to Him. It took a major hardship in my life to knock me out of the fleshly state of mind I was in, and to see that I was powerless and my way led to death. That's a hard place to get to when "life is good". If you are truly seeking then you need to ask yourself way you need Him more than ANYTHING else in life.

 

[Chuckyz2]

Chuckyz2,

"Whoever has the Son has life. But whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." - John 3:36

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come." - Rev.17:8

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Rev.20:15

No one is changing the words in the scriptures. What is happening here, is that you are applying scriptures without taking into consideration the whole word of God.

For example, we already have scripture which tells us that when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age there will be a judgment of the sheep and the goats. He will put the sheep on His right and they will enter into the millennial kingdom. And to the goats on His left, He will say "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." Since it is already written that the goats will go into everlasting fire, how can you say that God will not cast people into Hell? We also have the rich man whom Jesus spoke of who when he died went to Hades where he was in torment in flame and who still there as I write this. Where do you think that Pharaoh went? Where do you think the man of lawlessness and the false prophet will end up?

"But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. - Rev.19:20

How about all of those people who will end up worshiping the beast and receiving his mark? Scripture states that they will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb and that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night. Does that sound like they are saved?

You are not rightly dividing the word of God by not including other the scriptures that say that there is punishment in the lake of fire for those whose names will not be found written in the book of life. And we know from the scripture above that there are names that will have not been written in the book of life.

All sin must be accounted for because as king David understood, all sin is against God. For those who have faith in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. For those who reject Christ, they will die in their sins and they will be held accountable for their own sins.

Your teachings make you a false teacher and therefore you yourself are in danger of separation from God. Repent and stop teaching these lies!

You are a very rude person. Let me just say that up front. You are worse than an atheist in the way you discuss this matter with me.
I posted verses saying they appear to say all peoples are save and ask for others to comment on those verses.
You start a new topic in my thread and address it to me and same I am in danger of the fire for stating the truth.

Because the verses I posted do say all peoples are saved. Your misguided view of the verses you posted do not say men are cast into the fire, you do. Because your mind is corrupted to the point you are delusional.

You flat out ignored my verses and the topic I started. You answer a simple question with off topic blabbering and threats.
There can be no dialog with a person like you and the arrogant self righteous attitude you display.

So instead of just talking to yourself, because that is all you are doing, try coming into my room and discussing the subject I have brought forth. I will show you how easy it is and maybe you can learn from so you won't continue in your arrogant rude ways.
I will pretend this is your thread. You should like that as any narcissist would.

You referenced these:
"Whoever has the Son has life. But whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." - John 3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

If you read my posts in this thread, I have agreed with this 100%. The scripture I posted show that that happens for many after they die. In the great tribulation, a great multitude go in, a great multitude come out washed in His blood singing praise to the LORD.
But since you haven't read my post or just ignored them, both which are rude, I have to repost. Thanks.

You referenced these:
"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come." - Rev.17:8

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Rev.20:15

It does not say, "The men of the Earth whos names are not found." If that is what the John was saying he would have said it.
You don't seem to know that we are not alone and havn't been since the serpent entered the garden. A third of the angels fell from heaven to here. Some of them mated with women and had bastard kids that were not human. And lets not forget the devil himself.

The other verse says "anyone whos name is not found" That could be men and it also could be the evil entities mentioned above. Or it could be some men and all the evil entities. Because we already know Satans name is not written, right. And we know his angels get cast, right. So we know some of the inhabitants that are not written in the Book for sure without doubt. But it doesn't say some humans names are not written. It say Anyone whose name is not written! So this is far from conclusive evidence that any man will be cast. You can assume all you want. You can speculate all you want. You will have to find something that says straight out, "Men will be cast into the lake of fire" It doesn't exist in the Bible as it should many times over if that was going to happen.
It was written that way for a reason. So the hating heart could be revealed. A hating heart is someone that would tell a human being they are going to be cast into hell for believing and teaching the simply stated by Jesus and no more. This is what I preach.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

1 Tim 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer
reproach, because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that
believe.
11 These things command and teach

Do you see that. It tells me to preach this. You tell me Im going to burn for it. Lol
Are you a devil? Because you sound like one.

1 Tim 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of
God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God
and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in
due time.

Tell me that Gods will isn't going to be done. Go ahead. Lol.
I know Gods will is going to be done.

Please tell me what part of this next verse doesn't say all people are saved.

Romans 11
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Also tell me how mercy includes Him casting His children into the fire. Please explain to me
how merciful that is. Lol.

There are many more verses in the first post. that I Preach and will continue to do so.
You twist scripture because you ignore ALL of them that put the verses you preach into proper context.
The devil and His angels will not be found in the Book of life.
The lake of fire was made for the devil and his angels
The goats on the left are the devil and his angels.
The ones on the right are every human being ever born.
You owe me an apology.
Tell me Im going to burn for preaching the Gospel.
What a piece of work you are. You should be ashamed of yourself dude.
Repent. Study the Bible. Its full of good news. and good news is not
my brothers and sisters being cast into the lake of fire where there
is weeping and gnashing of teeth forever and ever. That is horrible news
that only Satan or someone possessed by satan would preach.
Praise God satan and his angels are the only ones going there....

 

[Ahwatukee]

You are a very rude person. Let me just say that up front. You are worse than an atheist in the way you discuss this matter with me.
I posted verses saying they appear to say all peoples are save and ask for others to comment on those verses.
You start a new topic in my thread and address it to me and same I am in danger of the fire for stating the truth.

Because the verses I posted do say all peoples are saved. Your misguided view of the verses you posted do not say men are cast into the fire, you do. Because your mind is corrupted to the point you are delusional.

You flat out ignored my verses and the topic I started. You answer a simple question with off topic blabbering and threats.
There can be no dialog with a person like you and the arrogant self righteous attitude you display.

So instead of just talking to yourself, because that is all you are doing, try coming into my room and discussing the subject I have brought forth. I will show you how easy it is and maybe you can learn from so you won't continue in your arrogant rude ways.
I will pretend this is your thread. You should like that as any narcissist would.

Hello Chukyz2,

My apologizes if I appeared to be rude, for that is not my intention. I believe that you are confusing rudeness with contention for the truth. Your post inferred that all people are saved and so I was contending for the truth, that being that not all people are saved. There is a temporary place of punishment which is Sheol/Hades where the unsaved throughout all of history have gone and continue to enter into daily and will remain there until after the millennial period where they will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment. Then according Rev.20:11-15 the books will be opened and everyone will be judged according what is written in the books. The church will not be apart of this judgment, for believers will have been judged at the Bema seat of Christ after being resurrected, changed and caught up, said resurrection taking place prior to the first seal being opened.

As far as coming into your room, I have already provided many scriptures that show that not all people are saved and that is enough proof. If you want to continue in this teaching then it is on your head, for it is a false teaching. Unfortunately, not all people are saved as Jesus Himself pointed out in the scripture below:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Since many enter in through the wide gate that leads to destruction, then how can you say that all will be saved?

 

[Chuckyz2]

Hello Chukyz2,

My apologizes if I appeared to be rude, for that is not my intention. I believe that you are confusing rudeness with contention for the truth. Your post inferred that all people are saved and so I was contending for the truth, that being that not all people are saved. There is a temporary place of punishment which is Sheol/Hades where the unsaved throughout all of history have gone and continue to enter into daily and will remain there until after the millennial period where they will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment. Then according Rev.20:11-15 the books will be opened and everyone will be judged according what is written in the books. The church will not be apart of this judgment, for believers will have been judged at the Bema seat of Christ after being resurrected, changed and caught up, said resurrection taking place prior to the first seal being opened.

As far as coming into your room, I have already provided many scriptures that show that not all people are saved and that is enough proof. If you want to continue in this teaching then it is on your head, for it is a false teaching. Unfortunately, not all people are saved as Jesus Himself pointed out in the scripture below:

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Since many enter in through the wide gate that leads to destruction, then how can you say that all will be saved?

There you go again!
Completely ignoring the verses I posted and not saying one thing about them.
This thread is about the verses I posted. How they are defined.
I have made this crystal clear. And you just completely ignore my request.
You are doing it on purpose, that is obvious. That makes you a troll.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There you go again!
Completely ignoring the verses I posted and not saying one thing about them.
This thread is about the verses I posted. How they are defined.
I have made this crystal clear. And you just completely ignore my request.
You are doing it on purpose, that is obvious. That makes you a troll.

It doesn't really matter what verses you provide, because there are other scriptures which also show that God punishes those who have already died in their sins in Sheol/Hades and those people will be resurrected, judged and then thrown into the lake of fire. It is very important to cross-reference and compare scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion, which is something you have not been doing. So far you have only been one-sided regarding this issue. This isn't even worth debating about, because it is obvious from scripture that God does and will punish the wicked.

Regarding ignoring your request, I did so because your post is too lengthy and so I just replied to the point of the matter. But for the sake of your request, give me one or two scriptures to keep it short and I will reply to them. In the same manner, please give an answer for Matt.7:13-14.

 

[Chuckyz2]

It doesn't really matter what verses you provide, because there are other scriptures which also show that God punishes those who have already died in their sins in Sheol/Hades and those people will be resurrected, judged and then thrown into the lake of fire. It is very important to cross-reference and compare scriptures in order to come to a right conclusion, which is something you have not been doing. So far you have only been one-sided regarding this issue. This isn't even worth debating about, because it is obvious from scripture that God does and will punish the wicked.

Regarding ignoring your request, I did so because your post is too lengthy and so I just replied to the point of the matter. But for the sake of your request, give me one or two scriptures to keep it short and I will reply to them. In the same manner, please give an answer for Matt.7:13-14.

Tim 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer
reproach, because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that
believe.
11 These things command and teach