Lying wonders or true wonders?

[posthuman]

IMO, the apostolic age is a very short period of time after the death & resurrection of Jesus but before the Antichrist took reign of the world. As per Daniel's timeline, it is 3.5 years and based on 70 week calculation, it ended in 3.5 AD

Christ's apostles preached and taught and witnessed and wrote and performed miracles for a lot longer than 3.5 years.

So....

 

[Noose]

Christ's apostles preached and taught and witnessed and wrote and performed miracles for a lot longer than 3.5 years.

So....

A lot longer is what you and others think based on either science or people's opinion but as per Daniel's prophesy of 70 weeks, a different picture is drawn. By the time the Messiah is cut off, we only have 1 week and in the middle of that week, the antichrist takes reign and knowing that the first order of event was to pursue the two witnesses and kill them, i'm of the opinion that the apostolic age was 3.5 years unless convinced otherwise.

 

[Noose]

The spirit of the antichrist(Satan) began in the garden as another mediator another kind of gospel.. by the upside down counterfeiter father of lies. He was a murder from the beginning . Murdering Adam and Eve.

It depends on how a person defines a word singular . Not adding a new meaning to it .Change the meaning of one word change the authorship. (blasphemy)

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:Genesis 3:3-4

Again the Catholic mind set as those who followed a "law of the fathers" calling them apostolical succession..... making the word of God without effect, those in whom Christ called a "brood of vipers" and they coined the phrase; "apostolic age".

I suggest Abel was the first sent one(apostle) .His brother killed him because he refused to hear the gospel and walk by faith .Killing the misperceived competition as those who have no faith.

Was Moses an apostle or Abraham and Rehab or were they not sent by God like the 25 listed in the new testament ?

Note.... (purple in parentessis) my addition

Ye shall not add unto the word (singular) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it (singular) , that ye may keep the commandments (plural the whole) of the Lord your God which I command you.feuteronomy4;2

Nope.
The idea of ages is depicted with the visions of beasts that Daniel saw. Four beasts each representing timelines (and transgression within those timelines). The first & the second beasts represented huge chunks of time from the time of Adam to Jesus and the third beast represented a very short time period (the apostolic age) and the final beast which also represents the antichrist, represents a long period until the end of the age. It is figuratively 3.5 years but this requires calculation to get the actual time period.

I know you can't follow what i say but this is what it is.

 

[garee]

men do that because man is vain.

what i'm essentially saying is the "then" in this verse:

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. ​

​

is the day He returns to gather His bride and complete the marriage. not the day John put down his stylus and capped his inkwell for the last time. there's application to the completion of this book, by analogy, but it's not what Paul's writing about; 'scripture' isn't the subject here. we don't see face-to-face now, and we don't know fully. compare Romans 8:22-23 -- we're still waiting along with all creation 'in earnest expectation'

i ain't disagreeing that what He intends for us as scripture is complete. i'm just saying that's not what this passage is about; i don't think it fits at all; it's about something else: a day when knowledge passes away and hope disappears because all is fulfilled, and only love remains.

I would ask... Why would we need to go above that which is written as did Jim Jones proving the father of lies is a murder from the beginning ?

Two kinds of warnings to protect the integrity of Him not seen. One in Deuteronomy in respect to a single word and the other at the end of prophecy the bible (Revelation 22) ending with Amen... in respect the whole or perfect seal till the end of time .

Its new knowledge coming from new prophecy in view I believe.

If it was not until we receive our new incorruptible bodies the goal of our faith . The memories of the former things will be wiped away never again to come to mind .It then as that, the written law of God that kills will be put to no effect. No longer a need to lead us to the goal of our faith or new incorruptible bodies..

It would appear to be a good thing when those who do depart from the things under the sun that its their memories not or will be forgotten of them and not the other way around . The memories we have of them can support us reminding us of ther love the showed toward God .

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.Ecl 9:5-6

It is there using Catholicism as a example that things get turned upside down as if the saints, not here were not asleep and they retained the memories they did have while under the sun .

They have 3500 and risings, picking up speed workers with familiar spirits that they must call patron saint available at their finger tips as idol images. The kind Rachel robbed from her father (teraphims) the kind Josiah when he found the book of the law, the bible, used to destroy what is called a abomination.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

cessationists tend to make 'doctrine' that one line in I Corinthians 13 that they manipulate to fit their own persuasions

it is unconvincing and yet they preach it like the entire NT doctrine on the gifts, means nothing compared to this one little line

yet it would take far more than one little line to convince these same folks that what they believe is untrue

I have a dog that not only chases it's tail...she catches it too! so there is a point to her doing what she does

make the comparison LOL!

 

[posthuman]

A lot longer is what you and others think based on either science or people's opinion but as per Daniel's prophesy of 70 weeks, a different picture is drawn. By the time the Messiah is cut off, we only have 1 week and in the middle of that week, the antichrist takes reign and knowing that the first order of event was to pursue the two witnesses and kill them, i'm of the opinion that the apostolic age was 3.5 years unless convinced otherwise.

I don't know what will convince you since apparently facts won't.

 

[posthuman]

A lot longer is what you and others think based on either science or people's opinion but as per Daniel's prophesy of 70 weeks, a different picture is drawn. By the time the Messiah is cut off, we only have 1 week and in the middle of that week, the antichrist takes reign and knowing that the first order of event was to pursue the two witnesses and kill them, i'm of the opinion that the apostolic age was 3.5 years unless convinced otherwise.

Paul was not converted immediately at 0 AD, and it was well more than 3 years after Paul was called as an apostle before he started evangelizing, and he continued to do so for far more than a couple months ((extrapolate partial timeline from Acts)). During that time the other apostles were all preaching and evangelizing too. That's according to Scripture:

Galatians 1:17-18
I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days.

So dude, it's the Bible itself describing decades of the apostles going about making disciples. Your 3.5 years thing either directly contradicts the Bible or you've got a really bizarre definition of 'apostolic age' that doesn't have anything to do with the actual apostles.

Just letting you know.
Whatever personal conclusion you draw from Daniel, i don't care what it is or who you or anyone happens to be, if it doesn't agree with all the rest of the Bible, it's wrong. Reevaluate.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Lying wonders are counterfeit miracles from Satan. The days of signs, wonders, and miracles accompanying the Gospel are over.

But in the future Satan will work through the Beast (the Antichrist) and the False Prophet to dazzle the world with miracles (lying wonders). See 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13.

The miracles being reported today should be carefully checked out. If there are false doctrines and false practices associated with these miracles, they may not be from God.

spot on


another good example of this

is when satan brings down fire in his efforts to torment job and the witness says its of God and from heaven (maybe he simply meant sky... but)

job 1

16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.


revelation 13

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

[Noose]

Paul was not converted immediately at 0 AD, and it was well more than 3 years after Paul was called as an apostle before he started evangelizing, and he continued to do so for far more than a couple months ((extrapolate partial timeline from Acts)). During that time the other apostles were all preaching and evangelizing too. That's according to Scripture:

Galatians 1:17-18
I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days.

So dude, it's the Bible itself describing decades of the apostles going about making disciples. Your 3.5 years thing either directly contradicts the Bible or you've got a really bizarre definition of 'apostolic age' that doesn't have anything to do with the actual apostles.

Just letting you know.
Whatever personal conclusion you draw from Daniel, i don't care what it is or who you or anyone happens to be, if it doesn't agree with all the rest of the Bible, it's wrong. Reevaluate.

Wow. You were explosive for a minute, someone would think that you can back up up your decades claim and all i can see is 3 years, not so far from what i said.

I know what i'm saying when i say they witnessed for 3.5 years just like Jesus did and we can easily calculate from Daniel's timeline. The two witnesses are Paul and Peter and when the antichrist took reign, he pursued and killed them. Most of those letters including Galatians, Paul wrote them in prison well after the apostolic age before his death.

Rev 11:1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”a 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them

Paul and Peter were untouchable during the Apostolic age, no prison would hold them, they miraculously broke out of jail. Their deaths are foretold by Jesus and by the accounts of Daniel and John in Revelation, their witnessing was to be for 3.5 years.

The reason i say they witnessed up to 3.5 AD is because a whole 33 years of Jesus life on earth is not accounted for in the calendar. This is what it means the messiah "shall be cut off".

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Where is your proof that the Apostolic age lasted decades?

 

[Noose]

I don't know what will convince you since apparently facts won't.

I admit that i was wrong; i read this:

Gal 2:1 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also.2I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

 

[posthuman]

someone would think that you can back up up your decades claim and all i can see is 3 years, not so far from what i said.

Well probably you didn't notice that I said extrapolate a timeline from Acts. And probably you never did so.

So see if you can compress the decades in Acts down to about 3 weeks, so it fits your interpretation -- that's what you'll have to do.

Here's the link, have a go at it dude:

http://biblehub.com/timeline/acts/1.htm

 

[posthuman]

I admit that i was wrong; i read this:

Gal 2:1 Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also.2I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

That is awesome!

Almost no one here ever admits being wrong

You win, sir.

 

[dcontroversal]

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. ​

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. ​

When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. ​

For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. ​

(1 Corinthians 13:8-12)​

​

i just don't see the canon of scripture being the subject here. it's about completeness in Christ - about His ushering in His covenant ((cmp. 'put the ways of childhood behind' with 'the law our schoolmaster' no longer being under law, but grace, by the Spirit, all righteousness fulfilled by love)), and about His coming again to redeem our bodies and restore all creation to Himself (('then I shall know fully' etc)).
prophecy, tongues, signs cease when all His works are finished - when there is nothing to point to because all prophecy is fulfilled. this supports cessationism but doesn't necc. mean it has all completely ceased today. still that doesn't seem to be about scripture.
'where there is knowledge it will pass away' -- to me this is extraordinary difficult to understand what is being said, and maybe the closest link to 'scripture' as a subject, next to 'prophecy' -- because scripture is prophetic, and scripture, being true, is a source of knowledge. but it says it will pass away: what? Christ says in another place 'heaven and earth will pass away but My words will never pass away' -- so can that be talking about scripture? His word is scripture.

i can see how it applies - for ex. prophecy ceases at some time, and we can liken scripture to 'prophecy' as an abstract, and say the writing of scripture ceases the same way. but when does it cease? according to what is being said here, when completeness comes - and i think it's clear that the 'coming completeness' is a double reference to His first appearing, ending the Sinai covenant and beginning the covenant of His blood and His cross, and His second appearing, stopping every mouth that does not believe Him, judging the world, and completing the work He began in all of us, renewing all creation. then we will all fully know - at that time, not at the time John wrote down his revelation. i don't think it's pointing at the completion of scripture, is all, i think it's pointing at the completion of creation, the last day. in Revelation for ex. there are things John was not allowed to write - what the seven thunders said ((Rev. 10:4)) -- that's not written down or heard by any man but John, so, if that's in some sense 'scripture' it hasn't been added to what is given to us yet, and won't be until all the things in Revelation come to pass.

does all this make sense, what i'm saying?
i can see that you can take a principle from this passage and apply it to the completion of His word to us, at this time. i'm not saying scripture is still being written - just that scripture itself really doesn't seem to be the subject.

feel free to convince me
i'm never unwilling, but i don't make it easy lol

What ceases, fails and vanishes away?
The three referenced cannot be chunked in the bin....Tongues, Supernaturally given knowledge and prophecies are what fail, cease and vanish away.....

a. We have the written word in every language no need for "languages"
b. We have the complete bible...no need for supernaturally given knowledge
c. We have the complete Revelation no need for any more prophecy and or additions.

End of story!

 

[garee]

Nope.
The idea of ages is depicted with the visions of beasts that Daniel saw. Four beasts each representing timelines (and transgression within those timelines). The first & the second beasts represented huge chunks of time from the time of Adam to Jesus and the third beast represented a very short time period (the apostolic age) and the final beast which also represents the antichrist, represents a long period until the end of the age. It is figuratively 3.5 years but this requires calculation to get the actual time period.

I know you can't follow what i say but this is what it is.

I understand what you are saying. I am not a dispensationalist. but rather from the Amil camp(.no literal thousand years).

God works by His faith as a labor of love in the heart of born again men the same no matter what time period.

Every word that comes from His mouth has a designed meaning needed to protect the integrity of his living so that he can judge the intent of our heart. Change by adding a new meaning can destroy his intent .

The book of Daniel a word defined which means Jehovah is judge as apostle sent by God. It has nothing to with dispensations of time.

God sent Abel his apostle with the gospel .His brother Cain in whom found no favor of God (no faith) killed the misconceived competition by walking by sight after the imagination of his own wicked heart as that which was influenced by the father of lies , the spirit of the antichrist . You could say just as Peter was in Mathew 16: 22-23 when he blasphemed the name of God in respect to the Son of man as that seen (forgivable ) while the Son of man was here .

Ye shall not add unto the word(singular) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it (singular), that ye may keep the commandments (plural) of the Lord your God which I command you.Deuteronomy 4:2

A completely different warning than the one at the end of the book of prophecy, the last chapter, Revealtion .Both working as that needed to protect the integrity of His living abiding word .