Speaking in tongues

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
That'a a lot of words, but it isn't a sentence.

You are still using circular reasoning. Neither you nor Roger has established from Scripture that the "edifies himself" of 1 Cor 14:4 is a bad thing. Both of you are starting from the premise that self-edification is bad, and you conclude that self-edification is bad. No matter how much other material you put in between, it's still circular, and is not logically sound.
As I said before you go ahead and be edified apart from knowledge. You pose a logical fallacy. Your edification as you pose it will also be a fallacy.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue must know the tongue even if others present do not know the tongue. He can only be edified if he knows the tongue. He and God know the tongue because God knows all tongues.

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that edification is present if the speaker does not know the tongue he speaks.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,784
113
Back to basics. The word "unknown" was added all six times ( (I Cor. 14:2, 4, 13, 14, 19, & 27,) to those who seek to edify their own selves as a false evidence they are being filled with the Holy Spirit .The one inspired by God spiritual gift not their own selves as a unseen gift speaks in a tongue unknow to the hearer. not to the one being inspired (he knew what the words meant when they t left his lips )God does the interpreting so the person can believe God and both can understand the other called having a conversation .

It is a sign of God mocking them who mock the Holy Spirit ….against those who go above all things written in the law and the prophets .

Why go above that which is written as if God was still brining new prophecy as new knowledge? Is God a circus seal that he must perform a sign before one believes?
Still circular reasoning and a lot of irrelevance. When I start asserting that God is some sort of performer then your comments may be relevant. As nobody here does, they aren’t.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,784
113
What makes you believe that those questions are logical?

Do you believe that love edifies if there is no knowledge? Surely it is not logical to find edification without knowledge.
The questions are inherently logical in the context of the post to which they replied.

You have yet to establish your view regarding edification.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,784
113
As I said before you go ahead and be edified apart from knowledge. You pose a logical fallacy. Your edification as you pose it will also be a fallacy.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue must know the tongue even if others present do not know the tongue. He can only be edified if he knows the tongue. He and God know the tongue because God knows all tongues.

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that edification is present if the speaker does not know the tongue he speaks.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You don’t yet understand the nature of logical fallacies.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
The questions are inherently logical in the context of the post to which they replied.

You have yet to establish your view regarding edification.
You are entitled to your opinion no matter the weight of logic it may or may not pose.

My view of edification is the biblical view. Seek knowledge desire understanding the one might be made wise in the Lord. Nothing of self and all of Christ.

Your view appears to differ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
You don’t yet understand the nature of logical fallacies.
Really? How would you know without knowledge? I know fallacies and I know biblical fallacies. I know only God is true.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
As I said before you go ahead and be edified apart from knowledge. You pose a logical fallacy. Your edification as you pose it will also be a fallacy.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue must know the tongue even if others present do not know the tongue. He can only be edified if he knows the tongue. He and God know the tongue because God knows all tongues.

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that edification is present if the speaker does not know the tongue he speaks.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yet, God says that "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." . . . and "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" . . . So it's a logical fallacy?
Really? How would you know without knowledge? I know fallacies and I know biblical fallacies. I know only God is true.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
And how would you know without knowledge? You don't receive any "word of knowledge", "message of knowledge" from God because according to you that too has "passed away".
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Yet, God says that "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." . . . and "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" . . . So it's a logical fallacy?
It says in an unknown tongue and the word unknown is supplied by the translators to improve understanding of the intended meaning. It assumes that the speaker knows what he is saying but the tongue is unknown to the audience. That is why the speaker is edified but the rest of the audience is left without knowledge and unedified.
And how would you know without knowledge? You don't receive any "word of knowledge", "message of knowledge" from God because according to you that too has "passed away".
Here again you are proof texting and doing so without context. Knowledge that passed away is the knowledge that God gave through the Holy Spirit to poor uneducated fishermen to contest the scriptures with the most educated men in the country and to do so without the benefit of a college education. The hokey pokey "word of knowledge" that is common today was never part of the apostolic church.

Your participation is always welcome. There is no substitute for study of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
It says in an unknown tongue and the word unknown is supplied by the translators to improve understanding of the intended meaning. It assumes that the speaker knows what he is saying but the tongue is unknown to the audience. That is why the speaker is edified but the rest of the audience is left without knowledge and unedified.
I know that is why I had "unknown" italicized when I quoted the verse. Where does it say the speaker knows what he is saying? It says "no man understands" - him is also italicized . . . . so it was also added by the translators. Yes the speaker is edified when speaking to God "alone" but when spoken with interpretation the church is edified.
Here again you are proof texting and doing so without context. Knowledge that passed away is the knowledge that God gave through the Holy Spirit to poor uneducated fishermen to contest the scriptures with the most educated men in the country and to do so without the benefit of a college education. The hokey pokey "word of knowledge" that is common today was never part of the apostolic church.

Your participation is always welcome. There is no substitute for study of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
In the context - prophecy, tongues, knowledge - having to do with the manifestations of the Spirit.

But where there be prophecies - (in the context of these three chapters - prophecy would be in the context of manifestation of the Spirit), they will cease; where there be tongues - (again in the context of the three chapters - tongues is in the context of the manifestation of the Spirit); they will be stilled; where there is knowledge (again in the context of the three chapters - knowledge would be word of knowledge, or message of knowledge keeping in context with the manifestation of the Spirit.), it will pass away.

Word of knowledge or message of knowledge is God guiding and assisting us in areas/situations/circumstances that daily confront each of us.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
I know that is why I had "unknown" italicized when I quoted the verse. Where does it say the speaker knows what he is saying? It says "no man understands" - him is also italicized . . . . so it was also added by the translators. Yes the speaker is edified when speaking to God "alone" but when spoken with interpretation the church is edified.

In the context - prophecy, tongues, knowledge - having to do with the manifestations of the Spirit.

But where there be prophecies - (in the context of these three chapters - prophecy would be in the context of manifestation of the Spirit), they will cease; where there be tongues - (again in the context of the three chapters - tongues is in the context of the manifestation of the Spirit); they will be stilled; where there is knowledge (again in the context of the three chapters - knowledge would be word of knowledge, or message of knowledge keeping in context with the manifestation of the Spirit.), it will pass away.

Word of knowledge or message of knowledge is God guiding and assisting us in areas/situations/circumstances that daily confront each of us.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is far broader than just what is here in the three chapters of 1 Corinthians. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is first and foremost a ministry of bringing men to Christ and quickening them unto eternal life.

You are using a definition of word of knowledge that is far more narrow than the application you wish to make.

Mt 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

This is from the Lord Jesus. This is the Pentecostal power promised to believers. This is part of the many fillings of the Holy Spirit we receive to testify of Jesus to a lost and dying world. Its not unknown tongues and its not foretelling cataclysmic events yet to unfold it is giving the word of God from the bible that is most appropriate for the situation. It might not be the scriptures you would have selected but the ones God knows will penetrate the heart of the sinner and bring them to Christ.

This is the testimony of many preachers who are anointed of the Lord to minister the word of God as a pastor or an evangelist or a missionary and most certainly as a personal soul winner. God allows us to fulfill the great commission by His word and by His Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is far broader than just what is here in the three chapters of 1 Corinthians. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is first and foremost a ministry of bringing men to Christ and quickening them unto eternal life.

You are using a definition of word of knowledge that is far more narrow than the application you wish to make.

Mt 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

This is from the Lord Jesus. This is the Pentecostal power promised to believers. This is part of the many fillings of the Holy Spirit we receive to testify of Jesus to a lost and dying world. Its not unknown tongues and its not foretelling cataclysmic events yet to unfold it is giving the word of God from the bible that is most appropriate for the situation. It might not be the scriptures you would have selected but the ones God knows will penetrate the heart of the sinner and bring them to Christ.

This is the testimony of many preachers who are anointed of the Lord to minister the word of God as a pastor or an evangelist or a missionary and most certainly as a personal soul winner. God allows us to fulfill the great commission by His word and by His Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Word of knowledge or message of knowledge is God guiding and assisting us in areas/situations/circumstances that daily confront each of us. . . . word of knowledge is personal and comes from the gift of holy spirit God has given us. God is THE Holy Spirit and he communicates with the spirit born within us via the gift of holy spirit . . . And yes - this word of knowledge would be in the category of "it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak" but that didn't begin and end with Pentecost - God still communicates with us today.

We have ONE filling of the holy spirit - when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead we are saved, i.e. made whole - we now are born again of the Spirit and have been baptized, totally immersed, filled with the gift of holy spirit. Can't get no more nor no less . . . prophecy as in the manifestation of the spirit is not foretelling cataclysmic events but are words to edify the church and will be in line with the written word - given to the speaker by God to edify the body of believers. There is purpose in bringing people to Christ but there is also purpose in keeping the church, the body of believers, built up and strengthened.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Word of knowledge or message of knowledge is God guiding and assisting us in areas/situations/circumstances that daily confront each of us. . . . word of knowledge is personal and comes from the gift of holy spirit God has given us. God is THE Holy Spirit and he communicates with the spirit born within us via the gift of holy spirit . . . And yes - this word of knowledge would be in the category of "it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak" but that didn't begin and end with Pentecost - God still communicates with us today.

We have ONE filling of the holy spirit - when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead we are saved, i.e. made whole - we now are born again of the Spirit and have been baptized, totally immersed, filled with the gift of holy spirit. Can't get no more nor no less . . . prophecy as in the manifestation of the spirit is not foretelling cataclysmic events but are words to edify the church and will be in line with the written word - given to the speaker by God to edify the body of believers. There is purpose in bringing people to Christ but there is also purpose in keeping the church, the body of believers, built up and strengthened.
One baptism of the Holy Spirit at salvation many fillings for power to testify of Christ. Pentecost was a filling of the Holy Spirit the apostles having been baptised in the upper room per John 20:22. Little errors that lead to great Spiritual misundestandings. In Acts it clearly says they were filled not baptised.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
One baptism of the Holy Spirit at salvation many fillings for power to testify of Christ. Pentecost was a filling of the Holy Spirit the apostles having been baptised in the upper room per John 20:22. Little errors that lead to great Spiritual misundestandings. In Acts it clearly says they were filled not baptised.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
One baptism . . . . Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of holy spirit - Acts 2:38 The apostles were filled with holy spirit, i.e. baptized by one Spirit, i.e. born again of the Spirit - "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body" - - - as are all born again believers - when something is full - can't put anymore into it. baptized, totally immersed, filled - all synonymous terms . . .
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
One baptism . . . . Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of holy spirit - Acts 2:38 The apostles were filled with holy spirit, i.e. baptized by one Spirit, i.e. born again of the Spirit - "For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body" - - - as are all born again believers - when something is full - can't put anymore into it. baptized, totally immersed, filled - all synonymous terms . . .
I hear what you are saying but it is not clear that you understand what you are saying. Filled and baptized are two different terms. They are not synonymous.

We see in Acts 1 that we are filled with the Holy Spirit for power. We see in John 20 that we are baptized unto eternal life in Christ. Baptism unto eternal life is not the same as filled with the Holy Spirit to minister in power.

The filling promised in Acts 1:8 and delivered in Acts 2:4.

Baptised unto eternal life Eph 2:1 Titus 3:5.

We are to be empty vessels so we might be filled for the Masters use.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
I hear what you are saying but it is not clear that you understand what you are saying. Filled and baptized are two different terms. They are not synonymous.

We see in Acts 1 that we are filled with the Holy Spirit for power. We see in John 20 that we are baptized unto eternal life in Christ. Baptism unto eternal life is not the same as filled with the Holy Spirit to minister in power.

The filling promised in Acts 1:8 and delivered in Acts 2:4.

Baptised unto eternal life Eph 2:1 Titus 3:5.

We are to be empty vessels so we might be filled for the Masters use.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Baptized unto eternal life - What gives us eternal life? Believing in the only begotten Son of God.

How are we born again of the Spirit? Believing in the only begotten Son of God . . .

When we are born again, i.e. baptized unto eternal life; we receive the gift of holy spirit, filled with holy spirit and we are all baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ - It's all the same. We are NOT empty vessels - we have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us via the gift of holy spirit. We have been given this gift of holy spirit to give us power to stand against the wiles of the devil, to enable us to withstand the fiery darts of the wicked, to walk in power against our adversary.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Baptized unto eternal life - What gives us eternal life? Believing in the only begotten Son of God.

How are we born again of the Spirit? Believing in the only begotten Son of God . . .

When we are born again, i.e. baptized unto eternal life; we receive the gift of holy spirit, filled with holy spirit and we are all baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ - It's all the same. We are NOT empty vessels - we have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us via the gift of holy spirit. We have been given this gift of holy spirit to give us power to stand against the wiles of the devil, to enable us to withstand the fiery darts of the wicked, to walk in power against our adversary.
Emptied of self. You have been believing what you believe too long for me to endeavor to correct you. Perhaps someday the Lord will open your understanding. Of course you will need to make room for the Holy Spirit to fill you. Empty of self and humbly waiting for God to move.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,784
113
Really? How would you know without knowledge? I know fallacies and I know biblical fallacies. I know only God is true.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you know them, why do you keep employing them in your posts? The point of knowing them is to avoid using them.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,784
113
You are entitled to your opinion no matter the weight of logic it may or may not pose.

My view of edification is the biblical view. Seek knowledge desire understanding the one might be made wise in the Lord. Nothing of self and all of Christ.

Your view appears to differ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
You haven't shown any indication that you have investigated the biblical meaning of edification, nor considered how the word is used. All I have seen is circular reasoning and endless repetition of your errors.

So, once again, what is meaning of "edification" as the term is used in Scripture? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,470
13,784
113
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is far broader than just what is here in the three chapters of 1 Corinthians. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is first and foremost a ministry of bringing men to Christ and quickening them unto eternal life.

You are using a definition of word of knowledge that is far more narrow than the application you wish to make.

Mt 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

This is from the Lord Jesus. This is the Pentecostal power promised to believers. This is part of the many fillings of the Holy Spirit we receive to testify of Jesus to a lost and dying world. Its not unknown tongues and its not foretelling cataclysmic events yet to unfold it is giving the word of God from the bible that is most appropriate for the situation. It might not be the scriptures you would have selected but the ones God knows will penetrate the heart of the sinner and bring them to Christ.

This is the testimony of many preachers who are anointed of the Lord to minister the word of God as a pastor or an evangelist or a missionary and most certainly as a personal soul winner. God allows us to fulfill the great commission by His word and by His Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
So a word of knowledge can only be something from Scripture?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Still circular reasoning and a lot of irrelevance. When I start asserting that God is some sort of performer then your comments may be relevant. As nobody here does, they aren’t.
Again The word "unknown" was added all six times (I Cor. 14:2, 4, 13, 14, 19, & 27,) for those who seek to edify their own selves as a false evidence they are being filled with the Holy Spirit . No outward sign gifts .

Outward signs are for those who rebel against the unseen faith of God, hid in parables.

And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.Numbers 17:10...…..Bearing fruit

Numbers 17:10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.

Again the unseen spiritual understanding hid in parables .

Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. Numbers 20:8

There he uses the rock (Christ) to represent the living waters of the gospel for those who were thirsting from a famine of hearing the word .The letter of law of God... striking the rock once.

Moses who typified the law of God struck it twice as if the letter of the law would enter the promised land . Moses was forbidden from entering the land typified as the promised land (Zion) the heavenly city as the bride of Christ . I think it aids in hearing the spiritual understanding in Mathew below

Matthew 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The almond rod is used that way in other parables like that of Jerimiah who at first refused to represent the gospel .

It could of been the tree in the middle of the garden and the fruit of the almond that mankind did eat to show their rebellion .

Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree.
Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it. Jeremiah1:11-12

Again a sign against those who would not beleive prophecy .Prophecy given four hundred years early by Abraham for those who do beleive.

And Moses answered and said, But, behold, they will not believe me, nor hearken unto my voice: for they will say, The Lord hath not appeared unto thee.And the Lord said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod.And he said, Cast it on the ground. And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.And the Lord said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:That they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee.And the Lord said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow. And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither hearken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign. Exodus 4:1-8