Trinity vs. Oneness

[Consumed]

In AOK's defense he is arguing against something that was condemned as heresy LONG AGO in the second century AD. In order to love Jesus you must know who he is and know his relationship to the Father, and Oneness Pentecostals know neither.

thank you brother for your view on the matter. As i have stated over and over Jesus condemned no one, even when He had the oppurtunity to condemn someone under the law(woman caught in adultry)so if someone was condemning others in the 2nd century AD, they, in my view, missed the whole teachings of Jesus , didnt come to condemn but save. Of course they were entitled to their viewpoint, not entitled to condemn, my viewpoint and??? Am i a heretic now for seeing Jesus that way???I think not for only God knows the heart of man and seeks those that worship Him in Spirit and truth, the truth of Jesus.

oneness??, trinitarian??, I believe Jesus died the death of the cross for my sin, not my theology since that day He consumed me by His love.


God bless, salvation is not theology of theology, salvation come by the shedding of Jesus blood on the cross. It is all about Jesus and the Cross of calvary.

 

[livingbygrace]

Paul says scripture is GOOD and GOD BREATHED and we need to learn it and be reproved by it. You deny this and call it bad and you're going against what God said.

Paul had a lot too say in scripture, as I posted before about people who make up false doctrines.

AOK

You either are deliberately misinterepreting what I have written, or you do not understand the concept of simply relying on the Holy Spirit in our lives.

I have never said that we do not learn from the spirit filled Bible. But we learn by the Holy Spirit within us the truth of what is written, not our natural understanding. This is scriptural
Jesus said to the disciples that when the Spirit came He would lead them into truth. You seem unwilling to see it this way, the reason I believe is plain and others have mentioned that reason to you.

Paul did indeed have a lot to say about people who make up false doctrines. They would have used their human reasoning and intellect rather than being led of the Holy Spirit to turn scripture and the Apostles words to mean something they did not.

Bearing this in mind. Please show me where it is plainly written in scripture that unless we believe Christ is God Himself we have no true Christianity. Please show me where it plainly says in scripture that if we simply believe Christ is the Son of the one true God we are in error and committing heresy.

Please do not give me man made arguments, theology and reasoning, and please do not quote from scholars and theologians.

I could easily say that people who believe this have erred in doctrine and gone beyond what is plainly written. Should I accuse people of being heretics?

I believe that man has used his natural intellect to reason things that usurp the plainest and clearest statements of Christ, his Father and the Apostle Paul. And most today follow what man has taught and base their opinions around the teaching of men, not what is clearly and plainly written in the Bible

But I call no-one a heretic. Because we will be answerable for every idle word we speak on the day of judgemment. But what are many most concerned with? Being answerable on that day? or promoting themselves now? under the guise of doing it in Christian love

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

There does seem to be a communication problem between us. I suppose we should just recognize that at this point and disengage. It's the honest thing to do. God bless you with love friend. Good bye for now. Maybe we can get the thing a ma bob to interface with the whatcha ma call it at some point... lol. These things happen in life. Let's not let them get us down.

AOK

You either are deliberately misinterepreting what I have written, or you do not understand the concept of simply relying on the Holy Spirit in our lives.

I have never said that we do not learn from the spirit filled Bible. But we learn by the Holy Spirit within us the truth of what is written, not our natural understanding. This is scriptural
Jesus said to the disciples that when the Spirit came He would lead them into truth. You seem unwilling to see it this way, the reason I believe is plain and others have mentioned that reason to you.

Paul did indeed have a lot to say about people who make up false doctrines. They would have used their human reasoning and intellect rather than being led of the Holy Spirit to turn scripture and the Apostles words to mean something they did not.

Bearing this in mind. Please show me where it is plainly written in scripture that unless we believe Christ is God Himself we have no true Christianity. Please show me where it plainly says in scripture that if we simply believe Christ is the Son of the one true God we are in error and committing heresy.

Please do not give me man made arguments, theology and reasoning, and please do not quote from scholars and theologians.

I could easily say that people who believe this have erred in doctrine and gone beyond what is plainly written. Should I accuse people of being heretics?

I believe that man has used his natural intellect to reason things that usurp the plainest and clearest statements of Christ, his Father and the Apostle Paul. And most today follow what man has taught and base their opinions around the teaching of men, not what is clearly and plainly written in the Bible

But I call no-one a heretic. Because we will be answerable for every idle word we speak on the day of judgemment. But what are many most concerned with? Being answerable on that day? or promoting themselves now? under the guise of doing it in Christian love

 

[livingbygrace]

Stop lying. I've not done that. I use the word heresy, exactly as I described in a previous post to differentiate the orthodox view of scripture from the heresy of Oneness. This is a scholarly usage of the word.

quote]

Do I understand this correctly? Someone in your eyes is a heretic if they do not follow the orthodox view of scripture. This must mean surely someone is a heretic if they do not follow the interpretatoion of scripture given by man. They are not a heretic based on what the Bible actually says, but rather because they do not agree with man's orthodox interpretation of scripture
Please do not say this must include what the disciples wrote in the Bible, unless you can show me where it says in the Bible that it is heresy to simply believe Christ is the Son of God.


So the deciding factor is not what is actually written in the Bible plainly, but man and his natural thinking and wisdom, and on that depends if someone is a heretic. Thank you for clarifying that
If that is the true definition of heresy then yes, I must be a heretic, because I will never follow the opinions of man if they contradict the plainest of statements in the Bible.

 

[Consumed]

There does seem to be a communication problem between us. I suppose we should just recognize that at this point and disengage. It's the honest thing to do. God bless you with love friend. Good bye for now. Maybe we can get the thing a ma bob to interface with the whatcha ma call it at some point... lol. These things happen in life. Let's not let them get us down.

is it so hard to dis-engage without the remarks brother, definately not called for

love is not rude brother

"Maybe we can get the thing a ma bob to interface with the whatcha ma call it at some point"

 

[zone]

For anyone interested and wants to hear what Christians belive about God, there is a good sermon (video) from Mark Driscoll. I have watched this myself and I personally believe we will all benefit from watching it. what does God reveal about Himself in scripture is very important to what you actually believe.

The video can be seen here at Marshillchurch , the video title is 'Trinity: God is' heres the link Mars Hill Church | Doctrine | Trinity: God Is

I do mean out of all sincerity that this will benefit you/us in your walk with God

Blessings

Phil

dear phil:

could you address how it is you brand as heretics others who are attempting to understand the GodHead while at the same time you promote Mars Hill Church?

did you know for example, that a female speaker at Mars Hill Church claims the Holy Spirit is female?

does this line up with your understanding of the Triune God?

there's so much information out there on THE NEW POST-MODERN CHRISTIANITY i won't begin to try to sort it out here, since they themselves believe there is NO ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

aside from the mystery of the GodHead, does your theology line up with the likes of Brian McLaren, Mark Driscoll, Rob Bell, etc?

thanks
zone

Quotes from Rob Bell's book Velvet Elvis​

Inspiration and Hermeneutics​

"The Bible is a collection of stories that teach us about what it looks like when God is at work through actual people. The Bible has the authority it does only because it contains stories about people interacting with the God who has all authority." - p. 65​

Sola Scriptura​

"...it wasn't until the 300s that what we know as the sixty-six books of the Bible were actually agreed upon as the 'Bible'. This is part of the problem with continually insisting that one of the absolutes of the Christian faith must be a belief that "Scripture alone" is our guide. It sounds nice, but it is not true. In reaction to abuses by the church, a group of believers during a time called the Reformation claimed that we only need the authority of the Bible. But the problem is that we got the Bible from the church voting on what the Bible even is. So when I affirm the Bible as God's word, in the same breath I have to affirm that when those people voted, God was somehow present, guiding them to do what they did. When people say that all we need is the Bible, it is simply not true. In affirming the Bible as inspired, I also have to affirm the Spirit who I believe was inspiring those people to choose those books." - p. 68​

Heaven and Hell​

"Heaven is full of forgiven people. Hell is full of forgiven people. Heaven is full of people God loves, whom Jesus died for. Hell is full of forgiven people God loves, whom Jesus died for. The difference is how we choose to live, which story we choose to live in, which version of reality we trust. Ours or God's." - p. 146​

"When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter--they are all hell on earth. Jesus' desire for his followers is that they live in such a way that they bring heaven to earth. What's disturbing is when people talk more about hell after this life than they do about Hell here and now. As a Christian, I want to do what I can to resist hell coming to earth." - p. 148​

"The goal of Jesus isn't to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here." - p. 148​

The Fall​

"I can't find one place in the teachings of Jesus, or the Bible for that matter, where we are to identify ourselves first and foremost as sinners. Now this doesn't mean we don't sin; that's obvious. In the book of James it's written like this: 'We all stumble in many ways.' Once again, the greatest truth of the story of Adam and Eve isn't that it happened, but that it happens. We all make choices to live outside of how God created us to live. We have all come up short." - p. 139​

Ultimate Reality

"For a Christian, Jesus' teachings aren't to be followed because they are a nice way to live a moral life. They are to be followed because they are the possible insight into how the world really works. They teach us how things are. I don't follow Jesus because I think Christianity is the best religion. I follow Jesus because he leads me into ultimate reality. He teaches me to live in tune with how reality is. When Jesus said, 'No one comes to the Father except through me', he was saying that his way, his words, his life is our connection to how things truly are at the deepest levels of existence. For Jesus then, the point of religion is to help us connect with ultimate reality, God." - p. 83

Bell, Rob. Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith. Zondervan, 2005. ISBN 978-0310263456

Bell, Rob. Sex God: Exploring the Endless Connections between Sexuality and Spirituality. Zondervan, 2007. ISBN 978-0310280675​

Bell, Rob. Jesus Wants to Save Christians: A Manifesto for the Church in Exile. Zondervan, 2008. ISBN 978-0310275022​

Emerging church

Creative and rediscovered spirituality

This can involve everything from expressive, neocharismatic style of worship and the use of contemporary music and films to more ancient liturgical customs and eclectic expressions of spirituality, with the goal of making the church gathering reflect the local community's tastes.
Emerging church practitioners are happy to take elements of worship from a wide variety of historic traditions, including traditions of the Catholic Church, the Anglican churches, the Orthodox churches, and Celtic Christianity. From these and other religious traditions emerging church groups take, adapt and blend various historic church practices including liturgy, prayer beads, icons, spiritual direction, the labyrinth, and lectio divina. The Emerging Church is also sometimes called the "Ancient-Future" church.[56]
One of the key social drives in Western Post-industrialised countries, is the rise in new/old forms of mysticism.[57][58] This rise in spirituality appears to be driven by the effects of consumerism, globalisation and advances in information technology.[59] Therefore, the Emerging Church is operating in a new context of postmodern spirituality, as a new form of mysticism. This capitalizes on the social shift in starting assumptions from the situation that most are regarded as materialist/atheist (the modern position), to the fact that many people now believe in and are searching for something more spiritual (postmodern view). This has been characterised as a major shift from religion to spirituality.[60]
So, in the new world of 'spiritual tourism', the Emerging Church Movement is seeking to missionally assist people to shift from being spiritual tourists to Christian pilgrims. Many are drawing on ancient Christian resources recontextualised into the contemporary such as contemplation and contemplative forms of prayer, symbolic mutli-sensory worship, story telling and many others.[61] This again has required a change in focus as the majority of unchurched and dechurched people are seeking 'something that works' rather than something that is 'true'.[62]

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Nothing rude about this Consumed. This is just a humerous American colloquialism.

A colloquialism is a linguistic phrase that is characteristic of or only appropriate for casual, ordinary, familiar, and/or informal written or spoken conversation, rather than for formal speech.

This phrase you misunderstood is a loving and humerous remark for a Christian Chat friend. Any American will read that and laugh.

But you chose to suck the love and humor out of it with another one of your false accusations. Tragic.

is it so hard to dis-engage without the remarks brother, definately not called for

love is not rude brother

"Maybe we can get the thing a ma bob to interface with the whatcha ma call it at some point"

 

[Red33]

Here's the main excerpt from my previous post: All three of the Johannine letters deal with problems with schismatic groups, and in 1 and 2 John one of the characteristics of these groups is that they are heretical. In 1 John 4:1 we read that “many” false prophets have left the church community for the world. In 2 John 4 we read that “some” of the Christians are walking in the truth, while in 2 John 7 we learn that there are “many deceivers.”

The impression is that people in the church are defecting and going “out into the world,” probably to form their own groups based on their own doctrines: Exactly what we saw the Oneness adherents do in the early part of the 20th century just as some did in an earlier period and what you, for all I know, may be preparing to do or done already.

In 1 John 4 the heretics claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit when they teach what they do about Jesus. This does not mean that they were under direct Spirit-control at the time of their speaking, but that they were claiming that this was what the Spirit had taught them. John says that one can tell the true Spirit of God by the doctrine he teaches.

The Christian church finds its unity not around this or that doctrine, but around Jesus Christ. The one not committed to the real Jesus Christ does not know either the Father or the Son, according to John.

The ancient error and its modern Oneness offshoots misrepresent God and who Jesus Christ really is. So you have a serious matter here since your claims of truth are non-orthodox and based on a flawed usage of scripture and history.

Now pointing out this very scriptural truth does not mean the person who does so falls into some kind of judgment or condemnation.

Now, in Romans 2:1–4 Paul lays down the principle that judgment passed on others is in some sense “reflexive”; that is, when we pass judgment on others, we condemn ourselves at the same time. For only God knows the truth about us, and only he is able therefore to pass judgment. We are mere creatures, limited with respect to both the truth about others and the truth about ourselves. We, like all others, are sinners (Rom 3:23); that is the ultimate reason we ought not to pass judgment.

Paul is speaking about not condemning persons. Paul is not addressing speaking against unorthdox false doctrines.

Personally, I've condemned no one because God loves everyone. In fact, I've blessed you repeatedly and will continue to as per Romans 12:21 and many other New Testament scriptures instruct to.

What I have done is speak against heresy. You guys are actually sitting in here making up new heresy as if it were perfectly OK.

Notice that Paul’s words against judging seem to stand in conflict with his harsh words in Galatians 1:9, so the larger picture of Jesus’ teaching and life, characterized by love and compassion, by humility and forgiveness, stands in apparent conflict with another dimension of his life: Jesus’ words and actions could be uncompromisingly harsh toward those who opposed him and his ministry.

Paul spoke of “false brothers” (Gal 2:4) and those who oppose the “truth of the gospel” (Gal 2:5, 14), confuse the believers (Gal 1:7), “pervert the gospel of Christ” (Gal 1:7), bewitch the saints (Gal 3:1). This strong language shows how serious the matter was for Paul. What was at stake when Paul said this was nothing less than the Gospel of Christ.

It is clear then that Paul is not calling for the condemnation of his opponents because they are opposed to him, but rather because they are enemies of the gospel. That gospel is of divine origin, not of Paul’s invention (Gal 1:11–12). Therefore, those who pervert it subvert God’s redemptive purpose. Preaching a non-orthdox Jesus Christ is to miss the mark.

On those who thus act and teach, the judgment of God is justly pronounced. Thus there is here no real conflict between Paul’s general call for a nonjudgmental spirit and his strong word of judgment here, just as there is no real conflict between Jesus’ teaching on love for one’s opponents and his words of judgment. In both cases, where the work and truth of God is at stake, those who reject it stand under judgment.

Tell me something. Where does the grace of God fit into your orthodoxy? You boast of having the right opinion of the cardinal doctrines of the faith but where is the living God that is full of grace and truth? I am looking to see the grace of God upon your life. When I see the grace of God then I will extent my right hand of fellowship. God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the wise through the wisdom of grace. Many consider themselves to be wise through the knowledge of God but never grow in grace. Grace reveals the person of Christ who did not come for the righteous but for sinners. I am all for getting it right and having the right understanding of the word and doctrine, but growing in grace supersedes knowledge if knowledge only reveals truth without getting to know Christ. Jesus came by grace AND truth not just by truth. Truth without grace is nothing more then legalism in the letter of knowledge without the spirit. If we communicate the truth without grace it will have no benefit to the heart that needs to be established in grace (Heb 13:9).

2Cor 3:4-6 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

If you have no room for grace in your orthodoxy then your orthodoxy is dead and will kill the capacity of those that need the grace of God to grow and fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[mpaper345]

4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates(Deuteronomy 6:4-9).

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any(Isaiah 44:8).


10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour(Isaiah 10-11).

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble(James 2:19).

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all(Ephesians 4:6).

The Bible plainly speaks that there is only one God.The Bible attributes the Father as being God and not 3 persons of a trinity.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus(1 Timothy 2:5).

Our savior is the man Christ Jesus,for only a sinless man can approach a holy God on mankind's behalf.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him(John 3:34).

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell(Colossians 1:19).

No man is sinless,so God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus and God gave us His human body as a sacrifice for our sins.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory(1 Timothy 3:16).

When the Bible says God was manifest in the flesh it means that God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus.The Bible says that God laid down His life for us.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power(Colossians 2:8-10).

Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead,God's attributes,manifest in a human form.

The Bible says do not let anybody spoil you by telling you that Jesus is less than the one true God,which trinitarians try to do by saying he is the second person of a Godhead,and some people try to tell you he is a created god.

God said anybody that tries to tell you that Jesus is less than the one true God is wrong.Jesus is the one true God,the only God,for there is only one God,the Father.

Notice that the Bible says do not let anybody spoil you by telling you Jesus is less than the one true God.

That does not sound good and God said you will be spoiled if you believe that Jesus is less than the one true God.

The Bible says if you believe that there is only one God you do well.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace(Isaiah 9:6).

The Bible says that the Son shall be called The everlasting Father because God the Father manifest all His attributes to the Son,the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus can create all things for God the Father manifest all His attributes to the Son,the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God with no distinction of persons.

The Son does not know all things because the flesh does not know all things,but Jesus can kn ow all things because God manifest all His attributes to the Son,the man Christ Jesus.

The Father and Son are 2 different beings but they are in the person of Jesus Christ,fully God the Father and fully human,the Son,the man Christ Jesus.


7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake(John 14:7-11).

Jesus is a visible manifestation of God the Father.

Jesus said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father for Jesus is a visible manifestation of God the Father.

Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I(Isaiah 52:6).

God the Father said that He would reveal a new name to the Jews and speak to them,which He did when He appeared in flesh and revealed His name Jesus and spoke to them by His Son,the man Christ Jesus,the human body form of God the Father.

Jesus is God with us.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost,and Jesus is the one true God,who created all things,appeared in flesh,and dwells in the saints.

Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,are the 3 relationship's God has with His children designated by titles.

Father-parent of the saints.Jesus created all things so He would be our parent.The Son shall be called The everlasting Father,and God the Father said He would reveal His new name to the Jews which is Jesus.Jesus said I come in My Father's name,which He came in the name of Jesus,His Father's name.Jesus is the name of the Father.

Son-God's visible relationship to the saints.Jesus appeared in flesh and is the visible manifestation of God the Father,and Jesus said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father.The name of the Son is Jesus.Jesus is the name of the Father and the Son inherited that name from the Father.

Holy Spirit-God's invisible relationship to the saints.Jesus told the disciples that He is the Holy Spirit with them and would soon be in them.The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Jesus is the name of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.

If a person believes in a trinity gthey would not be able to explain the scriptures that talk against a trinity.

God said do not let anybody spoil you be telling you that Jesus is less than the fulness of God and the one true God.

The Son shall be called The everlasting Father.The Holy Spirit was manifest in the flesh,not a so called God the Son.The Holy Spirit is God the Father in spiritual activity and is what God is,a Holy Spirit.

God is a Holy Spirit.Father is a title for God the Holy Spirit.The Son is the man Christ Jesus.

Matt

 

[distinctiveministry]

Alright, Aok,
livingbygrace, consumed, Red33, and VW are all trinitarians who have called you out for the way you've spoken to people on this thread. If nothing else I think this is enough to make one stop and reflect and ask themselves why so many people all see a situation the same way. None of these guys wants you to change your beliefs, just your demeanor toward those with whom you disagree. None of them is telling you to be buddy buddy with me or any other oneness believers, or to say or believe that we fit within orthodoxy. All they want is to see you act and speak kindly, charitably, lovingly, and graciously toward the PEOPLE who hold views other than your own. You are fully capable and allowed to disagree over theology, even passionately, without condemning, belittling, or otherwise treating others in a manner not befitting a servant and disciple of Jesus.
We are really just begging you to let the love you say you have in your heart shine forth in your words and demeanor. That's all.

 

[SantoSubito]

thank you brother for your view on the matter. As i have stated over and over Jesus condemned no one, even when He had the oppurtunity to condemn someone under the law(woman caught in adultry)so if someone was condemning others in the 2nd century AD, they, in my view, missed the whole teachings of Jesus , didnt come to condemn but save. Of course they were entitled to their viewpoint, not entitled to condemn, my viewpoint and??? Am i a heretic now for seeing Jesus that way???I think not for only God knows the heart of man and seeks those that worship Him in Spirit and truth, the truth of Jesus.

oneness??, trinitarian??, I believe Jesus died the death of the cross for my sin, not my theology since that day He consumed me by His love.


God bless, salvation is not theology of theology, salvation come by the shedding of Jesus blood on the cross. It is all about Jesus and the Cross of calvary.

A heretic is a heretic, the Church judged the belief in oneness to be heresy. Salvation involves both faith in what Jesus did and right belief. People cannot be saved if they believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Correct belief is EXTREMELY important.

 

[distinctiveministry]

A heretic is a heretic, the Church judged the belief in oneness to be heresy. Salvation involves both faith in what Jesus did and right belief. People cannot be saved if they believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Correct belief is EXTREMELY important.

You are adding conditions to salvation that neither Christ nor any of the disciples ever preached or wrote about in the scriptures. I believe every word that Jesus spoke, obey Him as Lord, and know that He is God in the flesh. Yet you say that I lack and am not saved. That's not biblical.

 

[distinctiveministry]

A heretic is a heretic, the Church judged the belief in oneness to be heresy. Salvation involves both faith in what Jesus did and right belief. People cannot be saved if they believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Correct belief is EXTREMELY important.

The red is where you go wrong.

 

[Consumed]

A heretic is a heretic, the Church judged the belief in oneness to be heresy. Salvation involves both faith in what Jesus did and right belief. People cannot be saved if they believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Correct belief is EXTREMELY important.

the church at one point burned people at the stake,tortured, crusades, with held the gospel etc etc, your point has no merit, Jesus didnt burn people at the stake, partake in the crusades nor withheld the gospel last time i read,,,,,,

blessings

doctrines of man

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Your post here is pure nonsense distinctive amounting to nothing more than ad hominem fallacy.

I notice you and Consumed engage in it a LOT. This is because you have failed to win the argument as your Oneness position is both untrue and heretical.

We say all the time we love you, God loves you, we forgive everyone here who engages in the behavior they themselves complain about (such as what you're doing here with your false accusations), we don't condemn you, etc... etc... etc... in almost every post.

So now you both spend your time and energy engaging in ad hominem attacks. I forgive you. I love you. God bless all of you. See. Much love

The ad hominem is all on you two and your ad hominem fallicoius reasoning. Feel free to stop engaging in it anytime. The choice is always yours.

God bless

Alright, Aok,
livingbygrace, consumed, Red33, and VW are all trinitarians who have called you out for the way you've spoken to people on this thread. If nothing else I think this is enough to make one stop and reflect and ask themselves why so many people all see a situation the same way. None of these guys wants you to change your beliefs, just your demeanor toward those with whom you disagree. None of them is telling you to be buddy buddy with me or any other oneness believers, or to say or believe that we fit within orthodoxy. All they want is to see you act and speak kindly, charitably, lovingly, and graciously toward the PEOPLE who hold views other than your own. You are fully capable and allowed to disagree over theology, even passionately, without condemning, belittling, or otherwise treating others in a manner not befitting a servant and disciple of Jesus.
We are really just begging you to let the love you say you have in your heart shine forth in your words and demeanor. That's all.

 

[Consumed]

Your post here is pure nonsense distinctive amounting to nothing more than ad hominem fallacy.

I notice you and Consumed engage in it a LOT. This is because you have failed to win the argument as your Oneness position is both untrue and heretical.

We say all the time we love you, God loves you, we forgive everyone here who engages in the behavior they themselves complain about (such as what you're doing here with your false accusations), we don't condemn you, etc... etc... etc... in almost every post.

So now you both spend your time and energy engaging in ad hominem attacks. I forgive you. I love you. God bless all of you. See. Much love

The ad hominem is all on you two and your ad hominem fallicoius reasoning. Feel free to stop engaging in it anytime. The choice is always yours.

God bless

what are you on about now??? lol

 

[AndyPG]

I'm not on a computer so I can't copy and paste right now, but here is my belief in the Trinity and why I believe it. You may have to scroll down and find the section on the Trinity, but it is interesting reading. I promise.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 1 PARAGRAPH 2

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Grace fits in exactly where it is supposed to as revealed in scripture Red. I was addressing scriptures relating to why having the right Jesus is important and what the apostles had to say about those who taught a different one.

Why choose to ignore that discussion? Is what scripture says about people who make up heresy about who God is and teach it to others unimportant? Jesus and the apostles certainly didn't think so. Did you really read that post?

Now I realize it's not intentional friend but you're doing a little red herring here. Engaging in a red herring fallacy in a discussion is where you take the discussion in a different direction instead of ever actually dealing with the content of someone else's argument.

So... well... there it is . If you want to talk about grace, why not start a fresh post on it here in this thread and we can discuss it. I'd love to talk about the grace of our Lord! Praise the Lord!

Tell me something. Where does the grace of God fit into your orthodoxy? You boast of having the right opinion of the cardinal doctrines of the faith but where is the living God that is full of grace and truth? I am looking to see the grace of God upon your life. When I see the grace of God then I will extent my right hand of fellowship. God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the wise through the wisdom of grace. Many consider themselves to be wise through the knowledge of God but never grow in grace. Grace reveals the person of Christ who did not come for the righteous but for sinners. I am all for getting it right and having the right understanding of the word and doctrine, but growing in grace supersedes knowledge if knowledge only reveals truth without getting to know Christ. Jesus came by grace AND truth not just by truth. Truth without grace is nothing more then legalism in the letter of knowledge without the spirit. If we communicate the truth without grace it will have no benefit to the heart that needs to be established in grace (Heb 13:9).

2Cor 3:4-6 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

If you have no room for grace in your orthodoxy then your orthodoxy is dead and will kill the capacity of those that need the grace of God to grow and fellowship with our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SantoSubito]

The red is where you go wrong.

That Sacred Tradition is what gave you the bible my friend, but that is for another thread.

the church at one point burned people at the stake,tortured, crusades, with held the gospel etc etc, your point has no merit, Jesus didnt burn people at the stake, partake in the crusades nor withheld the gospel last time i read,,,,,,

blessings

doctrines of man

despite the fact that you just stated a whole slew of historical generalizations and falsehoods the red in particular. My point has plenty of merit, Christianity is not just "me and my buddy Jesus" as you are portraying it to be.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

what are you on about now??? lol

^ Clang Clang Bang Gong... the log in your own eye friend. Remove the log and may God bless you very much