Christ is God

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Placid

Senior Member
#641
Sep 27, 2016
316
36
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#641
Hi Posthuman,

You have quite a discussion going here and it is hard to show some truths from the Scriptures, as it moves at such a rapid rate. They ask questions and don’t give time for answers. --- The topic is good and needs to be discussed, with the application of Scripture. When I continue from one post to the next, I will give the post and page numbers. --- Life keeps us busy. Have a good day.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#642
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#642
Noose said:
Yes

Yes
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You are not going to dark extremes about His sacrifice on the cross, at least. However, I am not sure if its consistent with oneness, because other oneness pentecostals seem to go there.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#643
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#643
trofimus said:
You are not going to dark extremes about His sacrifice on the cross, at least. However, I am not sure if its consistent with oneness, because other oneness pentecostals seem to go there.
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I'm not a oneness Pentecostal and most of them think that Jesus is not God.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#644
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#644
Matt 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Acts 1:6 So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

In the light of the above verses, which is the correct way of thinking:

1. God is three distinct persons (Father/Son/Holy spirit) in one being sharing same essence.
Q. How comes one person (son) out of the three doesn't know the hour even though they share the same essence?
No one can claim that Jesus is God but doesn't know the hour and in the same breath claim that Jesus is the alpha and omega, the first and the last or that Jesus is the Father of the age to come (Isa 9:6).

Trinity doesn't make sense.

2. The Father/son/Holy spirit are authorities of God but is not for the son to know the times and seasons that the Father has set with His own authority.
As long as Jesus is the alpha and omega, the hour is within Him- meaning that He knows the hour.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#645
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#645
Noose said:
Matt 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Acts 1:6 So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.

Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

In the light of the above verses, which is the correct way of thinking:

1. God is three distinct persons (Father/Son/Holy spirit) in one being sharing same essence.
Q. How comes one person (son) out of the three doesn't know the hour even though they share the same essence?
No one can claim that Jesus is God but doesn't know the hour and in the same breath claim that Jesus is the alpha and omega, the first and the last or that Jesus is the Father of the age to come (Isa 9:6).

Trinity doesn't make sense.

2. The Father/son/Holy spirit are authorities of God but is not for the son to know the times and seasons that the Father has set with His own authority.
As long as Jesus is the alpha and omega, the hour is within Him- meaning that He knows the hour.
Click to expand...
Actually, Trinity is what makes sense here and oneness does not.

If Jesus is both son and father, there is no meaning in saying that son does not know something and father does. Its like saying you as a father does not know something and you as a husband know it.

Trinity (separate persons) makes sense here.

Now, to the question "why Jesus did not know this". My personal explanation is that when Logos came into human flesh, it had only a human brain to work with. To know the exact future (hour of something) requires an ability to know whole the spacetime universe. No human brain is capable of holding of such knowledge. Therefore Logos in the flesh did not know it, nor angels in heaven, only God who is above time knows it, i.e. Father in that point.

I do not say this is the right explanation, its just my own.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#646
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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#646
trofimus said:
Actually, Trinity is what makes sense here and oneness does not.

If Jesus is both son and father, there is no meaning in saying that son does not know something and father does. Its like saying you as a father does not know something and you as a husband know it.

Trinity (separate persons) makes sense here.

Now, to the question "why Jesus did not know this". My personal explanation is that when Logos came into human flesh, it had only a human brain to work with. To know the exact future (hour of something) requires an ability to know whole the spacetime universe. No human brain is capable of holding of such knowledge. Therefore Logos in the flesh did not know it, nor angels in heaven, only God who is above time knows it, i.e. Father in that point.

I do not say this is the right explanation, its just my own.
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:D:D
Jesus did not say "..i don't know the hour..", He said the son doesn't know and in another place He said it is not for the son to know what times the Father has set with His own wisdom.

It is not about the human mind knowing the future, Jesus is the beginning and the end- meaning that all time is within Him including that hour.

Isa 46:
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God is God also because He declares the end from the beginning. Jesus declared the end from the beginning because He is the beginning and the end.
Your explanation wouldn't make sense because you also think that the three are one; if they are one then all should know the hour.
It is clearly the authorities being spoken of here. The authority of the son is not to know the hour.
 
P

Placid

Senior Member
#647
Sep 27, 2016
316
36
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#647
To continue from post 631, page 32:

I had verified that the verse 1 John 5:7 was in the Latin Vulgate, therefore in the Douay Catholic Bible, and from Greek manuscripts in the King James Bible, the two Bibles that were used for hundreds of years and are still used.
5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
--- So the truth is there whether some want to believe it or not.

Also the phrase, “And these three are one,” has distorted the idea of a trinity, rather than understanding --- ‘three in harmony and purpose.’

I will give an example from Deuteronomy 6:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.”

The Hebrew word ‘echad’ in the Hebrew and Calder Dictionary, gives the meanings as: --- united; one; first; alike; alone; altogether.

A Hebrew Scholar explained Deuteronomy 4:6 this way
When God is spelled with lower case letters it means Elohim, a plural name for God.
So, ‘Our God (Elohim) is one’ --- using the Hebrew word 'echad.'

The Scholar said, ‘our God is one’ (echad), meaning in harmony, togetherness.
Two people who get married become one (echad) in union.
An army of 1000 men are one (echad) in purpose.

--- So if the term from 1 John 5:7 was written in Hebrew, it might say. ‘And these three are one’ (echad), one in harmony and purpose.
Next I will show where these three worked together in harmony and purpose.
 
R

rlm68

Active member
#649
Jul 23, 2018
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#649
trofimus said:
So, Jesus ceased to be God before He died on the cross, He died as a mere human for us and He became God again after he was resurrected.

If this is not a heresy, I do not know what is.
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Sorry for the delay in responding. It was late and I logged for the night.

Now to answer you:

The physical flesh body of God (the body God chose to use and had been using all throughout the Old Testament) still had the same mind. On the cross, Our Savior cried aloud, "Why hast Thou forsaken Me?" This is a reference of acknowledgement that Jesus knew the Spirit of God was no longer abiding in Him. He could have easily not finished by suffering to death and caused a miracle to save Himself (because He is God, even when absent from the Spirit of God), for He still possesses the mind of God.

My point is simply that He no longer had the Spirit dwelling within Him while He suffered until death. It would have been impossible for the Spirit to be in Him while He carried the sins of the world until His death was complete. Light and darkness cannot dwell together. It literally is the same as walking into a dark room and flipping the light switch to on position. The darkness disappears when the light begins to shine.

But nonetheless, what happened by the Spirit of God removing itself from the body that carried our sins, is not a reflection that would require multiple persons of God to be involved. What took place is solid evidence of the One God leaving His flesh until He completed His work for our salvation.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#650
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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#650
trofimus said:
Jesus was the Son.

Jesus is the Logos in flesh.
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True but he only demonstrated sonship with all its authority.
There's no way Jesus is God and He doesn't know the hour and this is a challenge to your doctrine especially the idea that the three persons are one being. One being means they are one and therefore all should know.
 
trofimus

trofimus

Senior Member
#651
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#651
Noose said:
True but he only demonstrated sonship with all its authority.
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Again, you are doing with the text what you are doing with the bible generally - you simply say it does not mean what it says, its just a demonstration, faked scenario, somehing "almost real" etc etc.

Such a work with the Bible cannot be accepted.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#653
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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#653
trofimus said:
Again, you are doing with the text what you are doing with the bible generally - you simply say it does not mean what it says, its just a demonstration, faked scenario, somehing "almost real" etc etc.

Such a work with the Bible cannot be accepted.
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Of course you are wrong.

1. Is Jesus God?
2. Is there anything that God doesn't know?
3. Is Jesus the beginning and the end?
4. Does Jesus know the end?
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#654
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
#654
trofimus said:
So, Jesus ceased to be God before He died on the cross, He died as a mere human for us and He became God again after he was resurrected.

If this is not a heresy, I do not know what is.
Click to expand...
That sure is heresy. And it is your creation. Because the member you quoted never said that.
 
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rlm68

Active member
#656
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
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#656
trofimus said:
This is not what the text says...
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It doesn't have to say it, it is implied that without the Spirit of God inside Christ, All that He ever was had changed. He was less than without the Spirit of God inside Him. He had never experienced that before. And in the midst of all of His suffering, He felt abandoned, alone, and forsaken by the absence of the Spirit of God, the connection.

It's rather obvious what happened here.
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#657
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
#657
rlm68 said:
It doesn't have to say it, it is implied that without the Spirit of God inside Christ, All that He ever was had changed. He was less than without the Spirit of God inside Him. He had never experienced that before. And in the midst of all of His suffering, He felt abandoned, alone, and forsaken by the absence of the Spirit of God, the connection.

It's rather obvious what happened here.
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Yes, Jesus died on the cross. He was both God and man while there.

Luke 23:46 46)Expanded version) Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Father, ·I give you my life [ into your hands I entrust/commit my spirit; Ps. 31:5].” After Jesus said this, he ·died [expired;  breathed his last].

We all give up our God given soul when we die.
Ecclesiastes 12
6. Remember Him before the silver cord is snapped, and the golden bowl is crushed, before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, and the wheel is broken at the well, 7before the dust returns to the ground from which it came, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 8“Futility of futilities,” says the Teacher! “Everything is futile!”…
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#658
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#658
rlm68 said:
On the cross, Our Savior cried aloud, "Why hast Thou forsaken Me?" This is a reference of acknowledgement that Jesus knew the Spirit of God was no longer abiding in Him.
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He is never not God.

He quotes the first line of a song here, a song called the hind of the morning. He is not the hind. the prophecy of this psalm is being fulfilled as He is quoting it, all around Him, and it is about Israel as well as being Messianic.
Israel is the hind. they think they are being forsaken, but there is God, totally doing the opposite of forsaking. it is a fantastic and sublime irony, and you can't see it if you think He is not God while He is laying down His life for you on that cross.
 
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rlm68

Active member
#659
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
#659
posthuman said:
He is never not God.

He quotes the first line of a song here, a song called the hind of the morning. He is not the hind. the prophecy of this psalm is being fulfilled as He is quoting it, all around Him, and it is about Israel as well as being Messianic.
Israel is the hind. they think they are being forsaken, but there is God, totally doing the opposite of forsaking. it is a fantastic and sublime irony, and you can't see it if you think He is not God while He is laying down His life for you on that cross.
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I never said He was not God at any given point. It was assumed by another poster that is what I meant. I guess in breaking down how the Spirit leaves the flesh, must have given the wrong idea. Which is shocking, since that is what the Bible states.


My words that you quoted: On the cross, Our Savior cried aloud, "Why hast Thou forsaken Me?" This is a reference of acknowledgement that Jesus knew the Spirit of God was no longer abiding in Him.

How can He be our Savior and not be God?

I was specific about Him being OUR SAVIOR: this means He is God since only God can save us!!
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#660
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
#660
posthuman said:
He is never not God.

He quotes the first line of a song here, a song called the hind of the morning. He is not the hind. the prophecy of this psalm is being fulfilled as He is quoting it, all around Him, and it is about Israel as well as being Messianic.
Israel is the hind. they think they are being forsaken, but there is God, totally doing the opposite of forsaking. it is a fantastic and sublime irony, and you can't see it if you think He is not God while He is laying down His life for you on that cross.
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Well said. :)

Jesus' cry asking the Father why hath thou forsaken me isn't his realizing the Father departed the flesh. Jesus was God. God cannot abandon himself.
 
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