You must be born "anothen" - was Jesus speaking in Greek?

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In aramaic there is no ambiguity with the word , only in Greek. So the story could not happen in the way it happened, in such a case (i.e. if aramaic language was used).

Sure it could have. Nicodemus heard the word born and went off in the only direction he knew - worldly things. That's evident from Jesus' response when he admonished N. for thinking worldly things when Jesus was speaking about spiritual things - "You're a teacher of Israel and don't understand the spiritual realities I'm talking about?"

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Maybe I confused you with "second time", "again" is probably more appropriate in English.

You must be born from above vs You must be born again.

Ehrman is the one who said in the video it meant "a second time". I don't see it. That's a real stretch to give it that definition. Josephus uses the word to describe Abimelech wanting to bring his friendship with Isaac back to where it was in the beginning (from the first), but not become friends a second time.

 

[Noblemen]

There is a known passage in the Bible, we are all familiar with:

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above (anothen), he is not able to see the kingdom of God."
J 3:3

The Greek word "anothen" is ambiguous. It can mean either "from above" or "for the second time".
Nicodemus understood it wrongly in the sense that he is supposed to go back to his mother's womb and basically to be born again, for the second time. Jesus then explains that the first meaning was the right one, that he must be born from of the Spirit (i.e. from above, spiritually).

The problem is, that this is possible only in Greek. Aramaic does not postulate this ambiguity. Was Jesus speaking in Greek here, then?

Source is Bart Ehrman (yeah, I know, I know, but still, if its so, the question is valid).

For some the bible still holds a mystery, for some the mystery has been revealed. People would do themselves a big favor by leaving the Greek and Hebrew alone, for the most part. If they are confused already, the Greek and Hebrew is not going to solve their problem. Read it like its written and trust the HolySpirit, the day is coming where the word of God will be completely interpreted by man.

 

[trofimus]

Sure it could have. Nicodemus heard the word born and went off in the only direction he knew - worldly things. That's evident from Jesus' response when he admonished N. for thinking worldly things when Jesus was speaking about spiritual things - "You're a teacher of Israel and don't understand the spiritual realities I'm talking about?"

I cannot imagine that Jesus said "you must be born from above" and Nicodemus said "how can I get to my mother's womb again", if the word "from above" cannot also mean "again".

"Surely they cannot enter a second time (deuteron) into their mother’s womb to be born." J 3:4
I just do not see the logic, the connection between "from above" and mother's womb.

The "second time" got probably mixed with the intepretation of Nicodemus.

BTW, I just realized that almost all English translation translate the word "anothen" as "again", instead of "from above", which makes the situation even more confusing.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I cannot imagine that Jesus said "you must be born from above" and Nicodemus said "how can I get to my mother's womb again", if the word "from above" cannot also mean "again".

I can. Easily. I see that kind of spiritual obtuseness around me all of the time.

 

[JChesney]

There is a known passage in the Bible, we are all familiar with:

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above (anothen), he is not able to see the kingdom of God."
J 3:3

The Greek word "anothen" is ambiguous. It can mean either "from above" or "for the second time".
Nicodemus understood it wrongly in the sense that he is supposed to go back to his mother's womb and basically to be born again, for the second time. Jesus then explains that the first meaning was the right one, that he must be born from of the Spirit (i.e. from above, spiritually).

The problem is, that this is possible only in Greek. Aramaic does not postulate this ambiguity. Was Jesus speaking in Greek here, then?

Source is Bart Ehrman (yeah, I know, I know, but still, if its so, the question is valid).

There may be two answers, either Jesus and Nicodemus spoke in Greek (this is possible, but unlikely), or this conversation was compiled by the evangelist in Greek, and he (the gospel writer) did not care that this conversation was to take place on Aramaic or Hebrew.

 

[Enocish]

If you can find it you might read my earlier post. I cant find it any where but it talks of this very thing.
If you dont understand at least the first six chaptors of genisis you will not understand the rest of the bible

 

[JChesney]

For some the bible still holds a mystery, for some the mystery has been revealed. People would do themselves a big favor by leaving the Greek and Hebrew alone, for the most part. If they are confused already, the Greek and Hebrew is not going to solve their problem. Read it like its written and trust the HolySpirit, the day is coming where the word of God will be completely interpreted by man.

many so trusted supposedly "Holy Spirit", and there were such sects, God forbid. It is better to learn Greek and Hebrew, although it is necessary to understand what is going on there. How can we believe "on Bible basis", and yet do not know what is this "basis"? if you are a believer and build your worldview on the Bible, is not it superfluous to know what you are dealing with? what is the biblical text in reality?

 

[JChesney]

I cannot imagine that Jesus said "you must be born from above" and Nicodemus said "how can I get to my mother's womb again", if the word "from above" cannot also mean "again".

"Surely they cannot enter a second time (deuteron) into their mother’s womb to be born." J 3:4
I just do not see the logic, the connection between "from above" and mother's womb.

The "second time" got probably mixed with the intepretation of Nicodemus.

BTW, I just realized that almost all English translation translate the word "anothen" as "again", instead of "from above", which makes the situation even more confusing.

most likely in Jn. 3.3 and 3.7 it says about the birth of anew (not about the birth from above) although in Greek it turns out two meanings, but judging by the answer of Nicodemus, Jesus spoke about the birth anew. We can see how the ancient translators interpreted this place and translated it, like the Old-Latin translations, the Vulgate or Peshitta.

3:3 - Respondit Iesus, et dixit ei: Amen, amen dico tibi, nisi quis renatus fuerit denuo, non potest videre regnum Dei
3:7 - Non mireris quia dixi tibi: oportet vos nasci denuo

Peshitta: 3:3 ܕܐܢ ܐܢܫ ܠܐ ܡܬܝܠܕ ܡܢ ܕܪܝܫ ܠܐ ܡܫܟܚ ܕܢܚܙܐ ܡܠܟܘܬܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
3:7 ܕܘܠܐ ܠܟܘܢ ܠܡܬܝܠܕܘ ܡܢ ܕܪܝܫ


although the ancient translators understood here and the other meaning of the Greek word under consideration. For example, in the Syriac Curetonian translation of 3.7 it is said about "the birth from above" (ܗܘ ܠܟܘܢ ܠܡܬܝܠܕܘ ܡܢ ܠܥܠ).

 

[Enocish]

For some the bible still holds a mystery, for some, the mystery has been revealed. People would do themselves a big favor by leaving the Greek and Hebrew alone, for the most part. If they are confused already, the Greek and Hebrew are not going to solve their problem. Read it like its written and trust the HolySpirit, the day is coming where the word of God will be completely interpreted by man.

unless I miss understood, this to me is a contradiction.
To the ones that the Bible still holds a mystery, They will never look to the Greek and Hebrew for understanding, Hence the reason for confusion.

For the ones that the mystery has been reviled. They looked to the Original text, Hence reason mystery has been revealed.

seems to me leaving the original text alone would be a grave mistake, No pun intended. The greek and Hebrew does not cause confusion it dispels it.

It is because of the original manuscripts that we don't have to rely on man's interpretation.

Also, the bible has already been completely interpreted by man. hence the reason for so many religions. There is only 1 God and there is only 1 Truth,
it is mans interpretation that has caused the confusion.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

most likely in Jn. 3.3 and 3.7 it says about the birth of anew (not about the birth from above) although in Greek it turns out two meanings, but judging by the answer of Nicodemus, Jesus spoke about the birth anew. We can see how the ancient translators interpreted this place and translated it, like the Old-Latin translations, the Vulgate or Peshitta.

3:3 - Respondit Iesus, et dixit ei: Amen, amen dico tibi, nisi quis renatus fuerit denuo, non potest videre regnum Dei
3:7 - Non mireris quia dixi tibi: oportet vos nasci denuo

Peshitta: 3:3 ܕܐܢ ܐܢܫ ܠܐ ܡܬܝܠܕ ܡܢ ܕܪܝܫ ܠܐ ܡܫܟܚ ܕܢܚܙܐ ܡܠܟܘܬܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ
3:7 ܕܘܠܐ ܠܟܘܢ ܠܡܬܝܠܕܘ ܡܢ ܕܪܝܫ


although the ancient translators understood here and the other meaning of the Greek word under consideration. For example, in the Syriac Curetonian translation of 3.7 it is said about "the birth from above" (ܗܘ ܠܟܘܢ ܠܡܬܝܠܕܘ ܡܢ ܠܥܠ).

The Theological Dictionary of the NT tells me that the Syriac versions strongly favor from above, while the Latin and Coptic versions favor again.

 

[Enocish]

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone is born from above (anothen), he is not able to see the kingdom of God."

You are correct a soul ( an angel ) must be born of flesh from above, ( through the womb of women into flesh and in spirit Through Baptism. You only get that through the original manuscripts, Hense the reason the angels that left there first heavenly abode can not be saved, they chose not to come to earth through the womb of women, which is the first condition to salvation. It is mans interpretation that has made that a mystery of God. And it is the manuscripts that revealed this whereby dispelling confusion.

 

[Enocish]

yep sure was. and when you said the word an'othen you were to, now by you saying it did the meaning change as opposed to Christ saying it. still means from above. but when you add it to the verse, and read it like it is in manuscripts.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born from above.
it changed the understanding of what the message was trying to convey.

 

[Enocish]

hey, I replied to a different thread, not sure how it ended up here.
well, some must have needed it.

I plant the seeds and someone else will water and God makes them grow.

 

[JChesney]

The Theological Dictionary of the NT tells me that the Syriac versions strongly favor from above, while the Latin and Coptic versions favor again.

no, from the Syriac versions only Curetonian supports meaning from above, in syriac was used a different terminology to denote one and the other meaning, I by the way quoted it in my previous post. For example Etheridge's English Peshitta translation:
3:3 Jeshu answered and said to him, Amen, amen, I say to thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of Aloha
3:7 Wonder not that I have said to thee, that it behoves you to be born anew.
(anew = again)
see on http://www.dukhrana.com/peshitta/index.php

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

no, from the Syriac versions only Curetonian supports meaning from above, in syriac was used a different terminology to denote one and the other meaning, I by the way quoted it in my previous post. For example Etheridge's English Peshitta translation:
3:3 Jeshu answered and said to him, Amen, amen, I say to thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of Aloha
3:7 Wonder not that I have said to thee, that it behoves you to be born anew.
(anew = again)
see on http://www.dukhrana.com/peshitta/index.php

The TDNT says that these manuscripts have from above: syrᶜ syrᵖᵃˡ syrᵖ

Sorry, I can't tell you what those are, but if you need me to I will find out.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The TDNT says that these manuscripts have from above: syrᶜ syrᵖᵃˡ syrᵖ

Sorry, I can't tell you what those are, but if you need me to I will find out.

syrᶜ = Syriac Curetonian
syrᵖᵃˡ = Palestinian Syriac
syrᵖ = Peshitta

 

[JChesney]

syrᶜ = Syriac Curetonian
syrᵖᵃˡ = Palestinian Syriac
syrᵖ = Peshitta

I looked at these Syriac sources, they are available, syrᵖ and syrS (Sinaiticus in 3:3) have anew(again) - ܡܢ ܕܪܝܫ (s - ܡܢ ܕܪܫ )
syrᵖᵃˡ and syrᶜ (3:7) have from above - ܡܢ ܠܥܠ

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I looked at these Syriac sources, they are available, syrᵖ and syrS (Sinaiticus in 3:3) have anew(again) - ܡܢ ܕܪܝܫ (s - ܡܢ ܕܪܫ )
syrᵖᵃˡ and syrᶜ (3:7) have from above - ܡܢ ܠܥܠ

This is what my Syriac Sinaiticus has for John 3:3: ܡܬܝܠܕ ܡܢ ܕܪܫ
The first word is man, but I can't get again from the other two words. I'm using the Analytical Lexicon of the Syriac New Testament: Based on the SEDRA 3 Database of George Anton Kiraz.

It's odd that my Codex Curetonianus doesn't have John 3:3. It begins with John 3:5.

 

[JChesney]

This is what my Syriac Sinaiticus has for John 3:3: ܡܬܝܠܕ ܡܢ ܕܪܫ
The first word is man, but I can't get again from the other two words.

first word is to beget , second - from, third - the begining , Burkitt translate this phrase born anew

It's odd that my Codex Curetonianus doesn't have John 3:3. It begins with John 3:5.

yes, it have lacuna, see 3:7