Calvinism vs. Arminianism?
- Thread starter mcubed
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Stumbled across this article on Calvinism vs Arminianism on the Got Questions website:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html
Also, what do you think about this text, its about what you would call free will, I suppose:
"Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? Lord, God of Israel, tell your servant.”
And the Lord said, “He will.”
Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?”
And the Lord said, “They will.”
So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah.
1Sam 23:11
"Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? Lord, God of Israel, tell your servant.”
And the Lord said, “He will.”
Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?”
And the Lord said, “They will.”
So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah.
1Sam 23:11
Basically, the ability to choose.
Obviously, there are restrictions... For example, nobody has the free will to choose to create a tree.
Not very well...
As I said before, I believe God relates to His creation according to time.
I think so, yes. But even if He's not literally everywhere, He knows everything (that is available to know).
Ps 139:
8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Luke 12:
6) Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7) But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
I believe that some things are held together because that's the way He designed things to work.
Obviously, there are restrictions... For example, nobody has the free will to choose to create a tree.
Not very well...
As I said before, I believe God relates to His creation according to time.I think so, yes. But even if He's not literally everywhere, He knows everything (that is available to know).
Ps 139:
8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Luke 12:
6) Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
7) But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
I believe that some things are held together because that's the way He designed things to work.
God chose Christianity, not individual Christians. He wants ALL people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and become saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).
No, I obviously do not believe the "predestination/election" view is more biblical. CARM holds to Reformed Theology, which is Calvinism, and I am convinced it's a false theology.
No, I obviously do not believe the "predestination/election" view is more biblical. CARM holds to Reformed Theology, which is Calvinism, and I am convinced it's a false theology.
We believe God is almighty, so He only needs to speak the Word and it is done. As almighty, He gets to choose who will be saved. Nobody can argue with Him because He is in full control of every atom in the universe and everyone and everything is subject to Him . We are His sheep, His Son is our Shepherd. He leads and we just follow and obey everything. He gives us far more than we deserve
OK, one very important point you skipped over "In Him". Can you tell me when did those "In Him" become "In Him" was it when they chose to be "In Him" or when the Father decided to put them "In Him". We believe we were elect to be in Christ before, the Father created the world.
You would need to show me scriptures to suggest otherwise, or this remains the only logical conclusion.
-
1
- Show all
1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Your understanding of God is not biblical.
You do not understand that God gave us free will. We can choose to obey Him, or not. We can choose to believe the gospel, or not. God wants us to obey Him, He wants people to choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, and become saved.
Hmm. So you never sin? You always obey? You need to rethink your statements...
The rest of your post was not to me...
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Your understanding of God is not biblical.
You do not understand that God gave us free will. We can choose to obey Him, or not. We can choose to believe the gospel, or not. God wants us to obey Him, He wants people to choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, and become saved.
Hmm. So you never sin? You always obey? You need to rethink your statements...
The rest of your post was not to me...
The only one who was present at the foundation of the world was the Lord. No Calvinist was present.
Can you give a Scripture stating that you were in Christ before the foundation of the world?
Those "in Him" were placed in Christ when the heard the word of truth, believed upon Christ and were sealed. Before I can be the praise of His glory, I must first trust in Christ. Before I trust in Christ, I must hear the gospel of Christ.
Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Can you give a Scripture stating that you were in Christ before the foundation of the world?
Those "in Him" were placed in Christ when the heard the word of truth, believed upon Christ and were sealed. Before I can be the praise of His glory, I must first trust in Christ. Before I trust in Christ, I must hear the gospel of Christ.
Ephesians 1
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
People can be persuaded. We are to persuade people by teaching them the gospel.
2 Cor 5: (NIV)
20) We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore [you] on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Rom 10:
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
2 Cor 5: (NIV)
20) We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore [you] on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Rom 10:
17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
-
1
- Show all
I don't know where you're going here, trofimus....
Regarding breakfast. A person might really want a full blown farm breakfast, with bacon, eggs, hash browns, toast with butter and jelly, etc. But he has heart issues, he knows it's not healthy for him to eat bacon and eggs, so he decides to have oatmeal instead. He weighed the options and made a choice.
PS. Isn't it really, really late where you are?
Regarding breakfast. A person might really want a full blown farm breakfast, with bacon, eggs, hash browns, toast with butter and jelly, etc. But he has heart issues, he knows it's not healthy for him to eat bacon and eggs, so he decides to have oatmeal instead. He weighed the options and made a choice.
PS. Isn't it really, really late where you are?
I don't know where you're going here, trofimus....
Regarding breakfast. A person might really want a full blown farm breakfast, with bacon, eggs, hash browns, toast with butter and jelly, etc. But he has heart issues, he knows it's not healthy for him to eat bacon and eggs, so he decides to have oatmeal instead. He weighed the options and made a choice.
PS. Isn't it really, really late where you are?
Regarding breakfast. A person might really want a full blown farm breakfast, with bacon, eggs, hash browns, toast with butter and jelly, etc. But he has heart issues, he knows it's not healthy for him to eat bacon and eggs, so he decides to have oatmeal instead. He weighed the options and made a choice.
PS. Isn't it really, really late where you are?
I am watching some video about economics and I will fall to bed then.Well, I am going to the mechanism of choice making. Free will indicates some equiilibrium point, a point, in which you see both options the same.
If, in fact, you always choose according to your inclination (one option seems to be better than the other), you do not choose freely in the sense of equiilibrium. And inclination is something you do not control.
Is it understandable?
Its 00:30 here I am watching some video about economics and I will fall to bed then.
I am watching some video about economics and I will fall to bed then.
Not necessarily. One option may be significantly more attractive than the other(s).
Sure it is. Despite his knowing better, the person could have chosen bacon and eggs.
I can't respond for awhile, dinner time here.
Exactly. If it was not so, we will not choose anything. Every choosing contains attractiveness of something to us more than the other option.
Thats just about one inclination to be stronger than the other one.
Now, back to gospel. Two persons hear the gospel. One person sees it as attractive and chooses to believe the message. Second person sees it as not attractive and chooses not to believe the message.
Is it (attractive/not attractive) something they control in the moment or is it something pre-build in them?
Thats just about one inclination to be stronger than the other one.
Now, back to gospel. Two persons hear the gospel. One person sees it as attractive and chooses to believe the message. Second person sees it as not attractive and chooses not to believe the message.
Is it (attractive/not attractive) something they control in the moment or is it something pre-build in them?
As you can see below, there are many scriptures supporting our view of predestination before the foundation of the world.
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 9:16 - So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 9:13-14 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ezekiel 18:20-21 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
It's not possible to dismiss these scriptures without ignoring their meaning, they are confronting and they need to be believed because they are not parables. They are direct and they mean exactly what they say.
John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 9:16 - So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 9:13-14 - As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 8:29-30 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
John 12:32 - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ezekiel 18:20-21 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
It's not possible to dismiss these scriptures without ignoring their meaning, they are confronting and they need to be believed because they are not parables. They are direct and they mean exactly what they say.
Predestination has zero to do with salvation, but the destiny of those who are in Christ.
Ephesians 2
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
-
1
- Show all
We understand that 1 Tim 2:4 was communicated to believers, so you can easily understand it to mean Who will have all elect men to be saved, and come onto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 Not willing that any elect should perish.
I don't believe that God gave us a free will to chose to believe and obey Him. I do not believe that God wants (I presume us means everyone) to obey Him, I do not believe that He wants people to choose to believe the Gospel and become saved.
I believe God is almighty, so if He WANTS something He has it. To say God wants something but can't have it speaks of an impotent God who is not almighty and who can't get what He wants.
The God described in the Bible is almighty, all powerful and a all knowing sovereign God. I don't get the sense that He is lacking in any way, so if He wants something He gets it every single time.
2 Pet 3:9 Not willing that any elect should perish.
I don't believe that God gave us a free will to chose to believe and obey Him. I do not believe that God wants (I presume us means everyone) to obey Him, I do not believe that He wants people to choose to believe the Gospel and become saved.
I believe God is almighty, so if He WANTS something He has it. To say God wants something but can't have it speaks of an impotent God who is not almighty and who can't get what He wants.
The God described in the Bible is almighty, all powerful and a all knowing sovereign God. I don't get the sense that He is lacking in any way, so if He wants something He gets it every single time.
Yes of' course we were lost and without Christ, until we heard the Gospel and responded by utilizing our gift and believing. We were predestined to believe, there was never any doubt that we were saved before we heard the Gospel.
We only claimed our prize because we had the ticket of faith to begin with, while those who don't have the gift and are not of the elect will never believe no matter how many times they hear the Gospel. They go to their grave denying it, the hypocrites who claim to be Christians end up in that same hot place as the non believers do.
We only claimed our prize because we had the ticket of faith to begin with, while those who don't have the gift and are not of the elect will never believe no matter how many times they hear the Gospel. They go to their grave denying it, the hypocrites who claim to be Christians end up in that same hot place as the non believers do.