OT Salvation?

[mailmandan]

Genesis 5:5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

 

[garee]

Hebrews 9:27,28 "Just as man is appointed to die once and then to face judgement, so was Christ sacrificed once to take away the sins of many, and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those awaiting Him."

Notice He will bring salvation- it's not permanent until we have been found faithful till the very end.

Jesus died one time for all people- for all in the past who obeyed God (144,000), and all who would obey God in the future (the promise is for you, your children, and all who are far off (future christians not born yet), as many as the Lord will call).

According to Hebrews 11 all die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible body.. If Christ, our faithful Creator has begun the good work of salvation in us he promises he will finish it to the very end.(Philippians 1:6) He will sort out the sheep from the goats on the last day.

 

[grace77]

...saved by being meek and humble, by forgiving others, by having mercy and judging righteously. That is the minimum standard in which men are saved...then as now.

Jesus Christ gave Himself as a sin offering for the whole world...in all time.

In Christ we have redemption and resurrection life if we have faith. This is not just on a final mercy and salvation basis. In Christ we can enter into His eternal life right now. The gospel is according to glory...not just a lack of death. It is life...His life.

I praise Him for His exquisite gentleness and kindness...when manifested through the brethren...all glory to Him.

 

[Embankment]

According to Hebrews 11 all die not receiving the promise of our new incorruptible body.. If Christ, our faithful Creator has begun the good work of salvation in us he promises he will finish it to the very end.(Philippians 1:6) He will sort out the sheep from the goats on the last day.

If you read the entire passage. It is referring to the patriarchs of old, and names them, Moses, Noah etc . Explaining that there faith in the future savior was for their offspring and that they did not receive it. After Jesus death and reserection all are capable of receiving life.

 

[Endoscopy]

How were those, who lived before the time that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, saved? How were their sins forgiven back then? Please explain why you believe what you do about this (and please use Scripture as part of your explanation whenever possible).

Thanks

~Deut

It seems that you ignore the fact that blood has always been required to remove a person's sins from him at judgment time. In the Old Testament an unblemished lamb was the preferred sacrifice. Jesus living a sinless life became the Unblemished Lamb of God. Thus his blood cleanses all of those who accept grace through faith in Jesus at judgement time.

 

[OneFaith]

Genesis 5:5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

"Righteous" does not mean "saved". Abraham also obeyed, putting his son on the alter. Our obedience doesn't save us, but God only chooses to save those who obey. "If it is difficult for even the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1 Peter 4:18

 

[Endoscopy]

Addendum caused by the 5 minute rule. Seems the 5 minutes includes the time to create the post.
The book of Leviticus has all of the information the Levites followed in their duties of being the priests.

 

[garee]

The thing is that until the death of Christ, the final and only sacrifice for sin, knowone was clean and knowone entered Gods presence.

My home church where I first heard the gospel of my salvation taught that kind of idea.That until Christ came the holy Spirit did not dwell continuously. Scripture inform us if any man has not the Spirit of Christ than neither do they belong to Him

The preaching of gospel which is found by searching. It an be found in many places

God had grace (unmerited favor or a imputed righteousness) on Abel but on Cain he did not.

Cain killed his brother Abel when Abel offered the gospel to Cain . I think that was the first time we can see the gospel working in the affairs of men

Jesus is the lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world .Not from the demonstration of the cross , but of the spiritual (unseen)work that he did perform before the foundation,

I Peter1 provides a interesting thought I believe.

It informs us that the old testament saints by the grace of Christ who lived in them as he lives in us .They received the end of their faith, the salvation of our soul just as we do today. The glory that did follow the demonstration of the cross. The veil was rent the graves were opened as promised (Ezekiel 37:12,Ezekiel 37:13, Matthew 27:52)and many entered the New heavenly Jerusalem prepared as His bride, the church. releasing them from a temporal holding place (the Bosom of Abraham as the invisable presence of God) …..(The first resurrection)


whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.1 Peter1:8-12

 

[garee]

"Righteous" does not mean "saved". Abraham also obeyed, putting his son on the alter. Our obedience doesn't save us, but God only chooses to save those who obey. "If it is difficult for even the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1 Peter 4:18

I think an imputed righteousness . God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure as free gift that we work out and not work for to gain "does mean saved"

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.James2: 23

 

[notuptome]

OT saints were saved by believing God.

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Righteousness is imputed by grace not works.

For the cause of Christ
roger

 

[Latour]

OT saints were saved by believing God.

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Ps 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Righteousness is imputed by grace not works.

For the cause of Christ
roger

Righteousness is imputed because of faith or works...but not grace. I think there is a misunderstanding of a lot of these bible terms that are consequently being used incorrectly.

By grace we have access to the righteousness of God. But that grace is imputed to God not us.

Imputed means "attributed to."

as in...the plane crash was imputed to engine failure.

So it is something that God sees as real or genuine. Abraham's faith was genuine as attested to by God. But people can't just declare their own faith as genuine. Only God can do that. But that doesn't stop people from declaring themselves righteous...by their own beliefs (of all things). This is worse than what the pharisees did. Such is the state of affairs in our time.

 

[Slayer]

How were those, who lived before the time that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead, saved? How were their sins forgiven back then? Please explain why you believe what you do about this (and please use Scripture as part of your explanation whenever possible).

Thanks

~Deut

Abel understood the nature of a bloody sacrifice and the death of a substitute, and because of his faith in God, he was regarded by God as righteous Hebrews 1`:14

Paul explained in Romans 4 that salvation has always been and will always be by God’s grace and received through faith alone.

 

[notuptome]

Righteousness is imputed because of faith or works...but not grace. I think there is a misunderstanding of a lot of these bible terms that are consequently being used incorrectly.

By grace we have access to the righteousness of God. But that grace is imputed to God not us.

Imputed means "attributed to."

as in...the plane crash was imputed to engine failure.

So it is something that God sees as real or genuine. Abraham's faith was genuine as attested to by God. But people can't just declare their own faith as genuine. Only God can do that. But that doesn't stop people from declaring themselves righteous...by their own beliefs (of all things). This is worse than what the pharisees did. Such is the state of affairs in our time.

Well you have a problem. We are saved by grace not works. The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us by grace. The faith we have is through hearing the word of God. We believe Gods word and righteousness is counted or imputed to us just like Abraham.

The only work we are told to do is to believe on Christ. Any works we do are after we have believed and done in the strength of the Holy Spirit not by our will.

The plane crashed because it hit the ground. It hit the ground because it lacked sufficient lift to remain airborne. Some planes fly without engines but all need lift or gravity unites them with the ground.

We are clearly saved by grace and not works. No works can produce righteousness. All our righteousness is a filthy rags before the Lord. Only Christ was righteous and always pleased the Father.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

But were they saved, or kept safe from hell fire upon death until the blood of Christ was shed? They did not experience salvation like you and I.

Salvation has always been by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption.

The OT saints were justified -- deemed righteous before God -- through faith, just like the NT saints. However, it was after the resurrection of Christ that they were perfected in Heaven.

As far as God was concerned, the Lamb of God (Christ) has already been slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world. Therefore while they sacrificed clean animals by shedding their blood and offering up burnt offerings, they were exercising faith in the coming Lamb of God.

And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. (Gen 8:20)

Eventually, Christ was the whole burnt offering on the altar of the Cross.

 

[Latour]

Well you have a problem. We are saved by grace not works.

But we are not judged by grace but by works. So unless the grace produces the kind of works that justifies Jesus being raised from the dead on your account...then there is a big problem.

The righteousness of Christ is imputed to us by grace.

Actually grace imparts the righteousness of God to us. Grace is imputed to God not us...it is a gift not a human attribute.

The faith we have is through hearing the word of God. We believe Gods word and righteousness is counted or imputed to us just like Abraham.

Or so you hope... What did David say about presumptuous sins? We can't justify ourselves because of what WE are doing...namely...believing. THAT is what salvation by works (human works) is. So you have it exactly backwards. We are saved by the works of faith in the power of Christ...not believing according to the flesh.

The only work we are told to do is to believe on Christ. Any works we do are after we have believed and done in the strength of the Holy Spirit not by our will.

it is easy to get this exactly backwards. The works that we do by the Spirit are impossible for the flesh to do. Too many people just do human things and then claim that it is by the Spirit...in keeping with the idea that their own beliefs justify them...it is a vicious circle of false assurances based on a false conscience. I am just saying you have to be careful that it is really the Holy Spirit at work. Can other people do what you do that aren't believers? If so do you condemn them for doing what you are doing because they don't have the right beliefs? Do you see what I'm saying?

The plane crashed because it hit the ground. It hit the ground because it lacked sufficient lift to remain airborne. Some planes fly without engines but all need lift or gravity unites them with the ground.

That is the purpose of grace...to provide the necessary lift to overcome this world and it's sins.

We are clearly saved by grace and not works.

Our OWN works provide no lift above sin. Grace does this...so then grace is the power that saves us from sinning.

No works can produce righteousness.

Unless God says so. You and I are not fit to make such a statement. We are not to judge the world. God does that.

All our righteousness is a filthy rags before the Lord

.

In comparison to God...yes. No man can justify himself before God...especially not by what he believes. It is a huge conflict of interest to justify ourselves by our own beliefs. How can that ever be right?

Only Christ was righteous and always pleased the Father.

And only He can quicken us into His life. Eternal life is in the Son. From that life we become the righteousness of God in this world. We become lights in the world.

 

[mailmandan]

"Righteous" does not mean "saved".

"Righteous" is descriptive of those who are saved:

Matthew 25:46 - "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Abraham also obeyed, putting his son on the alter.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it evidenced or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

Our obedience doesn't save us, but God only chooses to save those who obey.

That is an OXYMORON.

"If it is difficult for even the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" 1 Peter 4:18

This verse if often misinterpreted by Roman Catholics to support salvation by works. If it is with (difficulty, suffering, pain, loss and persecution) that the righteous are saved (not that it's hard for the righteous to be saved or remain saved), then what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? The ungodly and sinner will suffer eternal condemnation, which is far worse than the (suffering, pain, loss, persecution) that the righteous will suffer in this life!

 

[Latour]

Here is a question....

How did Cain know that his offering was rejected by God? (He didn't own a bible)

 

[notuptome]

Here is a question....

How did Cain know that his offering was rejected by God? (He didn't own a bible)

The same way you know your gospel is false. God revealed it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[grace77]

Here is a question....

How did Cain know that his offering was rejected by God? (He didn't own a bible)

Because God's fire did not consume the offering?
It was not a sacrifice of blood?
IDK...I'm still examining my faith or presumption from previous post

 

[Latour]

The same way you know your gospel is false. God revealed it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God revealed it indeed. There was no answer from heaven. If Cain had done like so many in our time he would have just criticized his brother Abel as doing it wrong and justified himself.

But God'd fire still comes down on those whom He accepts into the Beloved.