John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

[UnderGrace]

I can't believe I have to educate you on basic common history. All Christianity comes from Roman Catholicism, you wouldn't have Christianity without the Roman Catholic Church who gave us Christianity. I can't believe that you are ignorant of that fact.

Sorry let me clarify.

Very familiar with church history, although I beg to differ not all Christianity comes from Catholicism. Although I would agree that the Reformation while repudiating much of the Roman Churches corruption and the doctrine tied to that corruption did retain much of the Roman doctrine formulated over the years.

My real question was did your pastor teach this about the sheep and being blind followers as all good sheep should be?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My real question was did your pastor teach this about the sheep and being blind followers as all good sheep should be?

Interesting.

"And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men [G444 - anthrōpois - 'one of the human race'] who will be competent to teach others also." 2Tim2:2blb. The requirement is "faithful" (male or female). The expectation is for them "to teach others also".

But, of course, one cannot "teach" what one does not "know".

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." 1Cor2:12

"Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, that we may know the things having been granted to us by God" 1Cor2:12blb

 

[Slayer]

Sorry let me clarify.

Very familiar with church history, although I beg to differ not all Christianity comes from Catholicism. Although I would agree that the Reformation while repudiating much of the Roman Churches corruption and the doctrine tied to that corruption did retain much of the Roman doctrine formulated over the years.

My real question was did your pastor teach this about the sheep and being blind followers as all good sheep should be?

Yes our pastor teaches us to follow his lead, he is the one who was appointed by God to teach us sheep the scriptures. Private interpretation is dangerous, it leads most into error and self delusion.

This is why we have the sheep and the shepherds, the worst thing that can happen in the church is when the sheep try to take the shepherds position. The sheep are usually simple, they don't have the capacity to interpret all then scriptures.

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes our pastor teaches us to follow his lead, he is the one who was appointed by God to teach us sheep the scriptures. Private interpretation is dangerous, it leads most into error and self delusion.

This is why we have the sheep and the shepherds, the worst thing that can happen in the church is when the sheep try to take the shepherds position. The sheep are usually simple, they don't have the capacity to interpret all then scriptures.

I actual think this is far more dangerous, the only true and trustworthy shepherd is Jesus.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

We must allow everyone to believe what they want about scripture, there is no hard and fast way to prove you have it right. So lets just agree that nobody really knows the whole truth, all we can do is use our God given wisdom to understand them the best we can.

I agree no one has 100% accurate knowledge of Scripture in this lifetime.

I just think it sad that when you witness to others, your text is calvin and not Scripture (as God intended).

1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

When we preach Scripture, God gives increase in the heart of those to whom we speak. When we preach calvin, there is nothing for God to increase because only Scripture is the good seed which results in fruit in the heart of the hearer.

Read further in 1 Cor 3:

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There is no other foundation than the Lord Jesus Christ. calvin is not the foundation intended by God and your works will be burned because they are wood, hay, stubble.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes our pastor teaches us to follow his lead, he is the one who was appointed by God to teach us sheep the scriptures. Private interpretation is dangerous, it leads most into error and self delusion.

This is why we have the sheep and the shepherds, the worst thing that can happen in the church is when the sheep try to take the shepherds position. The sheep are usually simple, they don't have the capacity to interpret all then scriptures.

This is no different than what the Catholic Church teaches. So now we have the cult of Calvinism, just like the cult of Mary.

Slayer, have you even stopped to think that you are so brainwashed that you prefer to reject Scripture over man-made doctrines? Cults brainwash their adherents.

 

[Slayer]

I agree no one has 100% accurate knowledge of Scripture in this lifetime.

I just think it sad that when you witness to others, your text is calvin and not Scripture (as God intended).

1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

When we preach Scripture, God gives increase in the heart of those to whom we speak. When we preach calvin, there is nothing for God to increase because only Scripture is the good seed which results in fruit in the heart of the hearer.

Read further in 1 Cor 3:

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There is no other foundation than the Lord Jesus Christ. calvin is not the foundation intended by God and your works will be burned because they are wood, hay, stubble.

Calvin faithfully built on the foundation which Christ laid, he interpreted the Gospel better than anyone before him or after him. He has gone down in history as one of the few great men of God, his ministry continues to be a great blessing to millions of people to this day and it will continue to b less until Christ returns.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I can't believe I have to educate you on basic common history. All Christianity comes from Roman Catholicism, you wouldn't have Christianity without the Roman Catholic Church who gave us Christianity. I can't believe that you are ignorant of that fact.

The church that Christ set up was never a part of the Roman Catholic church. The RCC tried to wipe them out, but failed. That was the period of time known as the dark ages when the church Christ set up had to go into hiding to survive. Matt 16:18, And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus's church did not come out of the Roman Catholic church and was not part of the reformation period. as was all of the other different churches.

 

[Slayer]

This is no different than what the Catholic Church teaches. So now we have the cult of Calvinism, just like the cult of Mary.

Slayer, have you even stopped to think that you are so brainwashed that you prefer to reject Scripture over man-made doctrines? Cults brainwash their adherents.

So you don't believe Church should exist, you believe every person should go and invent their own religion so we end up with 2.4 billion Christian religions instead of 40,000

Everyone is brainwashed with something, yours is Arminianism mine is Calvinism. Whatever floats your boat, is good for you. Nobody can say their branch of Christianity is the only true one, only a Fascist Christian would push such an idea. That's how Cults and Sects operate, the true Church is not a Fascist organisation.

 

[Slayer]

The church that Christ set up was never a part of the Roman Catholic church. The RCC tried to wipe them out, but failed. That was the period of time known as the dark ages when the church Christ set up had to go into hiding to survive. Matt 16:18, And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus's church did not come out of the Roman Catholic church and was not part of the reformation period. as was all of the other different churches.

You should remember that the RCC was a religious and political institution at the same time. The religious component, was just as faithful to the Gospel as any other Church. So we need to be careful before we judge the whole organisation for the actions of it's political wing.

Lets remember that the RCC gave us the Bible and that many true Christian brethren worship God in the RCC, as there are in every other denomination. We should be trying to unite the Church, the Bible says we are either gathering or scattering.
The Catholics look at us Protestants as narrow minded judgmental hypocrites, we have given ourselves that reputation because of all the infighting in the Protestant Church.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Everyone is brainwashed with something, yours is Arminianism mine is Calvinism.

Again, "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" are NOT the sole choices. That is a delusion, and many believe it... so don't feel too bad ... however, also do not continue to perpetuate a statement that is false (that there are only these two options. )... not that that was your point in THIS post...

 

[Slayer]

Again, "Calvinism" and "Arminianism" are NOT the sole choices. That is a delusion, and many believe it... so don't feel too bad ... however, also do not continue to perpetuate a statement that is false (that there are only these two options. )... not that that was your point in THIS post...

I've heard people say this before but I've never heard anyone tell us what this mysterious third view is, so I have to dismiss it as nonsense.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I've heard people say this before but I've never heard anyone tell us what this mysterious third view is, so I have to dismiss it as nonsense.

It means that BOTH"Calvinism" AND "Arminianism" are majorly flawed (though both also have SOME correct points in them, obviously).

 

[Slayer]

It means that BOTH"Calvinism" AND "Arminianism" are majorly flawed (though both also have SOME correct points in them, obviously).

Again, you have FAILED to present this mysterious non existent third way. Any fool can say this way is wrong then walk away, that just proves they don't know anything.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Again, you have FAILED to present this mysterious non existent third way. Any fool can say this way is wrong then walk away, that just proves they don't know anything.

To show how each of the two is "incorrect," just takes showing what "is correct" instead. Some of us have presented, one point at a time, what is "incorrect" with [aspects of] Calvinism (and some, what IS CORRECT instead). That is not to say that "Arminianism" IS CORRECT in its points (that, too, requires someone to point out where IT also does not measure up to Scripture, where it indeed doesn't).

I've not seen any real reply to the first point I've made, with regard to where "Calvinism" presents something not consistent with Scripture... and I haven't really gotten to the other 39 verses/concepts yet. lol. However, I've been thinking of getting to another one on "the list" at some point. It IS a time-consuming endeavor, to dig into the Scriptures and [presenting] what they actually say.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So... moving along...

Romans 9:17 - For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up [that is, to a prominent position (esp. in the circumstances of that time-frame--the 10 plagues)], that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


You could say it like this, God put Pharaoh on showcase display, for the two reasons listed.

"...have I raised thee up" means, "to a position of prominence," whether one concludes this refers to his leadership position as a whole (as "Pharaoh"), or to the immediate circumstances surrounding the plagues [which is my view; as it relates to what is also said of OUR future in 1Cor6:3,14, where the same word is used (ONLY in these 2 passages)]... Either way, this is what the reference to "raised thee up" means... just as it does in Acts 3:22 [v.26 also] (said of Jesus, in His earthly ministry before His death), and in Acts 13:22 ("And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king..." [that is, raised him up to a position of prominence, "when He had removed" the other guy..., so fitting the immediate circumstances surrounding the two particular men])


I'll try to get to the John verses when I get some more free time...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You should remember that the RCC was a religious and political institution at the same time. The religious component, was just as faithful to the Gospel as any other Church. So we need to be careful before we judge the whole organisation for the actions of it's political wing.

Lets remember that the RCC gave us the Bible and that many true Christian brethren worship God in the RCC, as there are in every other denomination. We should be trying to unite the Church, the Bible says we are either gathering or scattering.
The Catholics look at us Protestants as narrow minded judgmental hypocrites, we have given ourselves that reputation because of all the infighting in the Protestant Church.

Almost all of the books of the new testament are the apostles letters written to the church in various locations, so, are you sure the RCC gave the bible to the church? Is not the manuscripts the same as the bible, if so, the RCC got the bible from the church that Christ set up. If the history of Christ's church that I read is right, I recollect that they were burning the gospel record to try to keep it from the church. Yes, I do understand that there are the elect in various religious institutions in every nation, and, yes, even in the RCC. I may come across, sometimes, as a little harsh with my comments, but it is not my intention to make anyone upset. I was raised in the church, but never was able to see and understand the finished work of Jesus until I was 62 years old. I am so passionate about what was revealed to me that I may come across to strong in my explanation of the scriptures, forgive me if I do. I think that my understanding of the scriptures allows far more children of God to enter into heaven than anyone on this forum.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Calvin faithfully built on the foundation which Christ laid, he interpreted the Gospel better than anyone before him or after him. He has gone down in history as one of the few great men of God, his ministry continues to be a great blessing to millions of people to this day and it will continue to b less until Christ returns.

Just don't leave your "Berean" mindset behind when it comes to calvin ... God wants you to prove all things, hold fast that which is good even when it comes to your beloved calvin.


1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Slayer]

To show how each of the two is "incorrect," just takes showing what "is correct" instead. Some of us have presented, one point at a time, what is "incorrect" with [aspects of] Calvinism (and some, what IS CORRECT instead). That is not to say that "Arminianism" IS CORRECT in its points (that, too, requires someone to point out where IT also does not measure up to Scripture, where it indeed doesn't).

I've not seen any real reply to the first point I've made, with regard to where "Calvinism" presents something not consistent with Scripture... and I haven't really gotten to the other 39 verses/concepts yet. lol. However, I've been thinking of getting to another one on "the list" at some point. It IS a time-consuming endeavor, to dig into the Scriptures and [presenting] what they actually say.

It's perfectly fine to admit you don't know what you actually believe ab out the subject. You are in good company, 90% of people here don't know either

 

[Slayer]

Just don't leave your "Berean" mindset behind when it comes to calvin ... God wants you to prove all things, hold fast that which is good even when it comes to your beloved calvin.


1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

That's exactly what Calvin taught, so at least you agree with him on that account.