OSAS= House Built on Sand

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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#541
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#541
Speaking of Hebrews...

Hebrews 4 -

"2 For we also received the good news [having had gospel preached (to us)--perfect tense participle], just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith [not having been mixed with/united with the faith] of those who comprehended it [those having heard--aorist]. 3 Now we who have believed [having believed--aorist participle] enter [present tense] that rest. As for the others, it is just as God has said: “So I swore on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter My rest.’” And yet His works have been finished since the foundation of the world."
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#542
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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#542
UnderGrace said:
What is actually extraordinary is the lack of understanding between the faith that saves and the ongoing faith of the Christian walk.

From faith to faith
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Why don't you explain the difference for the listening audience?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#544
Jul 31, 2013
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#544
Ralph- said:
No, not your sloth and incompetence. HIS! Christ won't lose anyone because of his own sloth or incompetence like the old covenant priests could because he doesn't have any sloth and incompetence through which to lose anyone. That's how Christ does not lose any. Not losing anyone who comes to him does not mean they don't ever leave.
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but put this in the picture of the Shepherd and His sheep -- sheep are stupid, slothful, incompetent and possess notoriously poor hygiene.

what happens if a stupid sheep wanders off -- is it a 'good' shepherd that just lets him go? isn't it a slothful, incompetent shepherd?

The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
(John 10:12)​

does 'not losing any sheep' mean not losing sheep that never get lost in the first place, and abandoning any sheep that wander off?
a shepherd that maybe calls for a sheep but doesn't actually go out and rescue them, is that a good one or a bad one?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#545
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#545
justpassinthrough said:
Jesus loves us and wants us to return to Him if we become lost.


However, the teaching is to His disciples, instructing them what they must do if one of their disciples wanders away and becomes lost, since He would no longer be physically among them, they and we are to be His body to do His work, with His Spirit within us.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?


Jesus is instructing His disciples what they need to do, in the case of one of their brothers should wander away and become lost.


James teaches us this very thing -


  • if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20



If we someone who is lost we ourselves must go to them to turn them back.


Jesus will be working in us to do the work of teaching and preaching, and laying hands on the sick and casting out devils...



JPT
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great :)

does He not do the same thing He's instructing us to do -- and do it infinitely more and infinitely better?
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#546
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
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#546
justpassinthrough said:
When did the Pharisee's become justified?
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Luke 15:

1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

He’s talking to the pharisees and scribes who isolated themselves from the masses and they were murmuring because Jesus received sinners and ate with them.

And you're trying to tell me that the pharisees were justified???


The 99 sheep were left in vs 4 and never mentioned again.

The 9 coins were never mentioned.

The 1 son was actually being chastened by his father, even while the father told him “son, you are always with me and all that I have is yours”.


I cannot take your blinders off for you. It’s right there, in the text. READ THE TEXT.


Jesus made the same point in Luke 5.


Luke 5

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


In Luke 5, do you think Jesus was telling the scribes and pharisees who murmured against His disciples that they were righteous? Jesus was telling them that they were not sinners in need of repentance?


In both Luke 5 and Luke 15, Jesus was reproving the scribes and pharisees for their arrogance and pride.
 
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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#547
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
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#547
justpassinthrough said:
However, the teaching is to His disciples, instructing them what they must do if one of their disciples wanders away and becomes lost, since He would no longer be physically among them, they and we are to be His body to do His work, with His Spirit within us
Click to expand...
Really???

Luke 15:

1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,


Jesus is talking to the pharisees and scribes.

And He is focusing on their arrogance and pride.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#548
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#548
justpassinthrough said:
What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
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in the context:

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”​
So He told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."​
(Luke 15:1-7) ​

next He gives the parable of the lost coin, then the two sons, then the shrewd manager.

He's talking to the pharisees & scribes.

He's describing Himself and what He does, seeking and saving the lost, and how 'sinners' are coming to the kingdom while the ones who are outwardly righteous are being left behind in unbelief.

the context isn't instructing His disciples on what to do, except only in imitation of Him by implication. He's not even directly addressing His disciples here: He's directly addressing unbelievers who are accusing Him because He sits down and eats with the outwardly unrighteous which believe and receive Him. the "you" in "what man of you" is in particular the pharisees and scribes: that's who He's specifically replying to with these words.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#549
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#549
posthuman said:
So He told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."
(Luke 15:1-7)
Click to expand...
He goes after the one that is lost.
He goes until He finds it.
He lays it on His shoulders.
He rejoices.
He goes home carrying it on His own neck.
He gathers His friends and neighbors when He arrives and throws a party.

♥
 
J

justpassinthrough

Senior Member
#551
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
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#551
posthuman said:
in the context:

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”​
So He told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."​
(Luke 15:1-7) ​

next He gives the parable of the lost coin, then the two sons, then the shrewd manager.

He's talking to the pharisees & scribes.

He's describing Himself and what He does, seeking and saving the lost, and how 'sinners' are coming to the kingdom while the ones who are outwardly righteous are being left behind in unbelief.

the context isn't instructing His disciples on what to do, except only in imitation of Him by implication. He's not even directly addressing His disciples here: He's directly addressing unbelievers who are accusing Him because He sits down and eats with the outwardly unrighteous which believe and receive Him. the "you" in "what man of you" is in particular the pharisees and scribes: that's who He's specifically replying to with these words.
Click to expand...

The context is about what it takes to be His disciple.


Jesus is teaching His disciples [those who were with Him and those of us would be disciples], in which He speaks in parables, when the Pharisee's and crowds [unsaved] were around.


33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

34 “Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 14:33-15:7



Jesus said the sheep who were with the shepherd were just.

Jesus said the sheep who wandered away from the shepherd became lost.


It's just that simple and can not be refuted.


4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep,




JPT
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#552
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#552
justpassinthrough said:
The context is about what it takes to be His disciple.


Jesus is teaching His disciples [those who were with Him and those of us would be disciples], in which He speaks in parables, when the Pharisee's and crowds [unsaved] were around.


33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.
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that's the previous chapter. Luke 14:25 -- large crowds following, so He turned to them and said...

in the context of going after lost sheep ((Luke 15)) as i and RenewedDaybyDay both pointed out, He is directly addressing unbelieving, grumbling scribes and pharisees.


i don't disagree that we should be imitating Him in what He does. but the text of Luke 15 doesn't say He's telling His disciples what to do: He's telling people complaining about who He's associating with a parable about what He is doing.
our imitation of Him in His work is completely secondary and completely by oblique implication here; it's not what the parable is about. the parable is about Him and what He does. in the parable, His disciples are the sheep He's gone out and lain on His own shoulders, carrying them by His own power back to His home.

if i'm the shepherd in this parable, then i'm the one carrying others on my own shoulders: i'm the one saving people by my own strength. that's not scriptural. i'm the filthy idiot lost sheep that He's rescuing and carrying and bringing to His house.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#553
Jul 31, 2013
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#553
they grumbled, "so He spoke this parable to them"
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#554
#554
posthuman said:
He goes after the one that is lost.
He goes until He finds it.
Click to expand...
If he finds it...

"If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13“If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. " - Matthew 18:12-13
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#555
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
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#555
Ralph- said:
If he finds it...

"If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13“If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. " - Matthew 18:12-13
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man's plans are uncertain -- but will He fail to do what He sets out to do?

:)
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#556
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#556
Matthew 10 -

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#557
Aug 3, 2018
10,887
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#557
Matthew 15 -

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


[wasn't sure there was a time limit on posting, sorry]
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#558
#558
posthuman said:
man's plans are uncertain -- but will He fail to do what He sets out to do?

:)
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Not everybody heeds God's call. In fact, most do not. So I guess that means God is a failure?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#559
Jul 31, 2013
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#559
Ralph- said:
Not everybody heeds God's call. In fact, most do not. So I guess that means God is a failure?
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many called; few chosen.
​
And this is the will of Him who sent Me: ​
that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. ​
(John 6:39)​
​
probably how a person answers your question depends on who they think "all those He has given Me" are..

as for me i am particularly struck by the fact that it says "those He has given" not those who give themselves. those chosen, not those who choose themselves. there's a profound implication of ownership and authority there, and my dear Ralph, i'm afraid you might have just opened the door to make this thread explode into another free-will/predestination melee . . . .

XD

which means we'll obviously have to get into quantum physics and metaphysical implications of sub-atomic diameter.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#560
Jun 24, 2011
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#560
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
It's extraordinary. The very thing that results in salvation (faith) becomes 'trying to save yourself' once we become saved. It's like once we believe to be saved then we have to stop believing to be saved.
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Its just the way you decide to look at it.

Is Salvation a gift?

Or is salvation a result of you willing yourself to believe?


If it is a gift then everything that the legalist demands must be done to assure Salvation is also a gift.


If it is a result of you willing yourself to believe then it is up to you to continue to will yourself to believe in order to stay saved.
No matter how much you scoff, that is a work. And also against scripture, fyi.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 
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