OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Ralph-]

Are you just "correlating" with your natural mind, or actually looking to the text? Verses 10-11 speak of what "believers" are to do. Then he addresses what a believer is to do in the event that their spouse (who is not a believer) leaves them.

If you are using the unending relationship between a husband and a wife to show that you can't lose your salvation you will have to also consider that divorce is allowed and that the obligation of the faithful partner to be faithful ends in the case of adultery or when their spouse leaves. Natural, god ordained marriage between a man and a woman in no way suggests that Christ will always be, and has to be, faithful to the believer no matter what, thus proving 'once saved always saved' (if that's what you're trying to prove).

 

[Jewel5712]

Is this wandering you're talking about the wandering of the sinning, yet still believing Christian, or the wandering away of the believer who has chosen to not trust in the blood of Christ anymore for salvation and has become an unbeliever?

A believers salvation isnt fickle..as Jesus said IT IS FINISHED..and because of that..whether we are obediant or not obediant..our salvation is secure.

 

[Ralph-]

But..he also LEAVES the 99 to persue nd FIND the sheep that is lost...He couldve just said to the sheep.."ok..your choice..good riddence..1 less moith to feed..youre on your own"..he didnt..

He pursued the Galatians after they left faith in Christ for justification and returned to the keeping of the law for justification. So we know that God does make an attempt to bring the ex-believer back to faith in Christ.

 

[Ralph-]

A believers salvation isnt fickle..as Jesus said IT IS FINISHED..and because of that..whether we are obediant or not obediant..our salvation is secure.

Which is exactly why you should not leave it.

 

[Jewel5712]

And because the condition of your salvation was 'believing', not works, you can lose your salvation by not believing anymore.

I'm simply using the same logic that people use when they say that since salvation was not by works you can not lose it by not doing works.

See, people get into doctrinal trouble when they conclude that since salvation is not earned by works then salvation is by nothing at all, and so you can't lose it. But justification/salvation is not by nothing at all. It is through believing. You have to keep on believing to keep on being saved, just as you would have to keep on working to keep on being saved if salvation was by works.

Our "believing" is not initially of our accord..like i said FIRST was prompting of Holy SPIRIT. 2.THEN i believed..3. I made a choice and acted on my belief...(EVERYONE has a choice)

 

[Ralph-]

Our "believing" is not initially of our accord..like i said FIRST was prompting of Holy SPIRIT. 2.THEN i believed..3. I made a choice and acted on my belief...(EVERYONE has a choice)

I agree, just as you have a choice to leave. And a choice to resist all of God's efforts to bring you back to believing and trusting in Christ.

 

[Jewel5712]

Which is exactly why you should not leave it.

Leaving salvation being the same to you as being tempted and disobediant? How can you "leave" your salvation? You can CHOOSE to do your own thing in Life..walk away from the Lord but that doesnt have anything to do with Gods choice to call you His Own and maintain salvation

 

[Jewel5712]

I agree, just as you have a choice to leave. And a choice to resist all of God's efforts to bring you back to believing and trusting in Christ.

Yup..you have a choice to leave but God doesnt move..(see other post)

 

[posthuman]

No, we just need to read the plain words of scripture......without the bias of a predetermined doctrine, like Calvinism and all it's offshoots.

yes. i of was convinced of the scripture long before i ever heard of this Calvin guy ((tbh i think Hobbes is the brains of the pair)).
you'll notice scripture is what i quote, not human philosophers or theologians.

but this doesn't have anything to do with whether the nature of the physical universe is able to inform us about God or that it confirms what the revelation of His word says.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If you are using the unending relationship between a husband and a wife to show that you can't lose your salvation you will have to also consider that divorce is allowed and that the obligation of the faithful partner to be faithful ends in the case of adultery or when their spouse leaves. Natural, god ordained marriage between a man and a woman in no way suggests that Christ will always be, and has to be, faithful to the believer no matter what, thus proving 'once saved always saved' (if that's what you're trying to prove).

I was just trying to show how the verse you supplied (1Cor7:15) isn't saying what you're saying it's saying. (when you look into verse 12--"if any brother have an unpersuaded [G571] wife...")

 

[dcontroversal]

He's afraid to answer my question about if Jesus does his believing for him. EG just put me on ignore instead of answering it.

Dcon most certainly is saying that me believing to stay saved is me trying to earn my own salvation by works.

In your own words pal....to stay saved proves the point that you have no trust nor faith in the Jesus of the bible....exactly why you push a lie that saves no one!

 

[posthuman]

Brother,

Claiming the 99 sheep of His who are just, are actually the pharisee’s and scribes, is the point that I’m refuting.


The point I am making is His sheep who hear His voice and follow Him are just and will receive eternal life.


His sheep who wander away from Him and become lost are sinners that need to repent in order to be reconciled to Him and be just; declared as righteous.



JPT

oh
i don't know where you got that idea; i was saying it's not a parable instructing His disciples what to do; it's a parable describing what He does.

the pharisees and scribes are the evil shepherd -- the ones who think a shepherd shouldn't be out seeking and finding his sheep, rescuing them and carrying them home. they're not the sheep in the tale, though it would turn out at least a few of them were, and came to believe.
He tells what He is doing and exposes their hypocrisy, because even though they would do that for a beast, they think it's wrong that God is doing this for the souls of people. they don't believe He is Messiah, so they are unable to see what He is doing for what it is. He is redeeming the hearts of men and women, but all they see is Him associating with people who sin. in fact they think He is sinning, making Himself unclean by association and contact with the unrighteous, not knowing that His word makes clean, that He is Lord.

 

[Ralph-]

to stay saved proves the point that you have no trust nor faith in the Jesus of the bible

How is my believing not trust nor faith' in Jesus?

 

[Jewel5712]

How is my believing not trust nor faith' in Jesus?

They all go together..cant have 1 without the other

 

[Ralph-]

Yup..you have a choice to leave but God doesnt move..(see other post)

Ah, so you're a Hyper/Free-grace believer.

That is the doctrine that is destroying the visible church in accordance with Biblical prophecy.

 

[Ralph-]

They all go together..cant have 1 without the other

Dcon is saying my trusting and believing in order to be saved and stay saved is me trying to save myself.

I asked him who does his believing/trusting for him and he won't answer. EG wouldn't either. He just put me on ignore.

 

[Jewel5712]

@Ralph- do you thrive on these debates? Every time i get in the Bible disvussion forum..youre always front n center of some debate..lol

 

[Ralph-]

Leaving salvation being the same to you as being tempted and disobediant? How can you "leave" your salvation? You can CHOOSE to do your own thing in Life..walk away from the Lord but that doesnt have anything to do with Gods choice to call you His Own and maintain salvation

Yep.....you're a Hypergracer.

 

[Ralph-]

@Ralph- do you thrive on these debates? Every time i get in the Bible disvussion forum..youre always front n center of some debate..lol

I got red pilled and I want others to wake up to the truth too and stop making the Bible not really mean what it says. It makes us look like idiots.

 

[Jewel5712]

Ah, so you're a Hyper/Free-grace believer.

That is the doctrine that is destroying the visible church in accordance with Biblical prophecy.

According to the moderators..youre not supposed to use the hyper grace crap..theres a whole thread by the mod bout it so im not gonna get mixed up in your entanglement