OSAS= House Built on Sand

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,651
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That is right.....He gives eternal life....after which they shall never perish.

You may wish to concentrate on continuity of thought process. I can see it may help you to be right...and not distort G-d's word.
You can't follow your own conversation and see that Eternal Life IS Salvation???
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
I have in my personal library hundreds of volumes of studies on the Greek text of the New Testament by scholars representing an extremely wide spectrum of thought, including Roman Catholics, Protestants, and Jews—and NONE of these scholars hold to a view even remotely like that of Yeshaya Gruber that Paul and James “struggled to express and discuss Hebrew ideas in the Greek language.” Indeed, it is an incontrovertible fact is that both Paul and James were born and raised in the first century Hellenistic culture and that they had had more than 40 years of experience communicating in Koine Greek as Jews. Yeshaya Gruber appears to be writing from the Twilight Zone!

Moreover, Paul wrote of “works of the Law”—and circumcision in particular; and James wrote of humanitarian works. James was concerned about people being confused and believing that no works at all were necessary. Furthermore, the meaning of אֱמוּנָה depends upon the context in which it used; and so does the meaning of πίστις.
Try explaining the Hebrew words. I and most others don't understand Hebrew!! So to us this post is gibberish for that part. I have read about different aspects of different languages but only understand English. Most on this site are English only. Knowing English you can travel to developed countries and some people there will speak English. It is the most used language in the world. For work I traveled to every continent except Antarctica. Almost went there. Only ever knew English. I couldn't couldn't have learned all the languages of the countries I went to. European countries, Mexico, China, Korea, etc.

Australia and South Africa they speak British English. Had to learn their different slang. Scratched my head about a person drinking piss and getting pissed. One person saw my puzzlement and explained drinking alcoholic beverages and getting drunk. Road signs use different words but the meaning is clear, give way instead of yield etc.
 

Ignorun

Active member
Dec 18, 2018
180
69
28
Try explaining the Hebrew words. I and most others don't understand Hebrew!! So to us this post is gibberish for that part. I have read about different aspects of different languages but only understand English. Most on this site are English only. Knowing English you can travel to developed countries and some people there will speak English. It is the most used language in the world. For work I traveled to every continent except Antarctica. Almost went there. Only ever knew English. I couldn't couldn't have learned all the languages of the countries I went to. European countries, Mexico, China, Korea, etc.

Australia and South Africa they speak British English. Had to learn their different slang. Scratched my head about a person drinking piss and getting pissed. One person saw my puzzlement and explained drinking alcoholic beverages and getting drunk. Road signs use different words but the meaning is clear, give way instead of yield etc.
I wonder if they speak English in Antarctica. Isn't that place freezing? Whatever they speak, it's probably frozen in time.
Endoscopy, I appreciate your responses. Insightful.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,651
2,615
113
Your spin makes no sense.
I thought the scriptures were self-explanatory but if you tell me what you don't understand I will explain it.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
I wonder if they speak English in Antarctica. Isn't that place freezing? Whatever they speak, it's probably frozen in time.
Endoscopy, I appreciate your responses. Insightful.
They speak English since the US has a scientific mission there. I was almost sent there for work. The regular person was going to be elsewhere but at the last minute he was able to make it.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
29
28
Try explaining the Hebrew words. I and most others don't understand Hebrew!! So to us this post is gibberish for that part. I have read about different aspects of different languages but only understand English. Most on this site are English only. Knowing English you can travel to developed countries and some people there will speak English. It is the most used language in the world. For work I traveled to every continent except Antarctica. Almost went there. Only ever knew English. I couldn't couldn't have learned all the languages of the countries I went to. European countries, Mexico, China, Korea, etc.

Australia and South Africa they speak British English. Had to learn their different slang. Scratched my head about a person drinking piss and getting pissed. One person saw my puzzlement and explained drinking alcoholic beverages and getting drunk. Road signs use different words but the meaning is clear, give way instead of yield etc.
Πίστις is the Greek word for ‘faith; אֱמוּנָה is the Hebrew word for ‘faith.’
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
No, the root of the word is אָמַן, from which we get our word, “amen.”
Πίστις is the Greek word for ‘faith; אֱמוּנָה is the Hebrew word for ‘faith.’
Here is where I got my definition from. Keep in mind that the people writing this live in Isreal where they speak Hebrew!!!

There is a problem with the Greek language expressing Hebrew concepts. Paul and James struggled to do this. The Greek of the New Testament is really koine Judeo Greek not koine Greek.

https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/do-paul-and-james-disagree-about-faith/

Do Paul and James Disagree About “Faith”?
By Dr. Yeshaya Gruber
October 22, 2018

The question of “faith vs. works” has often baffled—and even enraged—biblical interpreters. Different Christian groups (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.) proclaim different views, sometimes fighting with each other over the correct interpretation. All of them contrast their own position with the “old” Jewish way of thinking. So where does all this conflict and confusion come from?

An apparent contradiction lies at the root of the controversy. Saul/Paul of Tarsus writes, “For we hold that one is justified by faith (πίστις; pistis) apart from works of the Law” (Romans 3:28, ESV; cf. Rom 5:1; Gal 2:16, 3:11, 3:24). But then Jacob/James of Jerusalem says, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith (πίστις; pistis) alone” (2:24, ESV). Some Christian theologians take one side or the other in this “debate,” while others try to show that the apparent contradiction is not really a contradiction.

Yet for all the argument and discussion, one of the most important factors is often neglected completely. Both Jacob/James and Saul/Paul were actually first-century Jews who lived in a hybrid Hebrew-Greek environment. Like others in this situation, they struggled to express and discuss Hebrew ideas in the Greek language. Just before Jacob/James states that becoming “just” involves “works” rather than merely “faith alone,” he exclaims, “You foolish fellow, can’t you see that ‘faith’ apart from works is useless?!” (2:20). This outburst reflects the fact – difficult to convey in Greek – that the Hebrew word for “faith” (אמונה; emunah) means a lifestyle of steadfast reliability.

Saul/Paul was no less frustrated with his audience when it came to understanding the Jewish idea of “faith” – he even calls the Galatians “mindless” (Gal 3:1) with regard to this topic. In context, he was arguing that the way to be considered “just” is to live a lifestyle of steadfast reliability in the way of truth, and that this doesn’t depend on whether one is Jewish and follows the Torah of Moses, or is a Gentile and therefore not obliged to keep all the same commandments.

Both authors found themselves limited by the language they had to use. Each chose a different angle or tack in employing Greek words to express Hebrew/Jewish ideas. This created the impression of a major contradiction, one that would even cause religious schisms! Thankfully, today we have many tools for understanding the original Jewish-Greek context and decoding the deep meanings of such ancient letters.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
29
28
Here is where I got my definition from. Keep in mind that the people writing this live in Isreal where they speak Hebrew!!!
How many people who speak English as their first language know the etymology of the English word ‘faith’? By the way, “Isreal” is not a word; but “Israel” is.

faith (n.)
mid-13c., faith, feith, fei, fai "faithfulness to a trust or promise; loyalty to a person; honesty, truthfulness," from Anglo-French and Old French feid, foi "faith, belief, trust, confidence; pledge" (11c.), from Latin fides "trust, faith, confidence, reliance, credence, belief," from root of fidere "to trust,"from PIE root *bheidh- "to trust, confide, persuade." For sense evolution, see belief. Accommodated to other English abstract nouns in -th (truth, health, etc.).

From early 14c. as "assent of the mind to the truth of a statement for which there is incomplete evidence," especially "belief in religious matters" (matched with hope and charity). Since mid-14c. in reference to the Christian church or religion; from late 14c. in reference to any religious persuasion....


https://www.etymonline.com/word/faith
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
366
29
28
I thought the scriptures were self-explanatory but if you tell me what you don't understand I will explain it.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
The scriptures do not say,

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The scriptures say,

27 τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἐμὰ τῆς φωνῆς μου ἀκούουσιν, κἀγὼ γινώσκω αὐτὰ καὶ ἀκολουθοῦσίν μοι,
28 κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου.

We know your explanation of the English translation of these two verses found in 1769 edition of the King James Version of the Bible. Now please give us your explanation of these two verses found in the Scriptures, and explain to us the significance of the Greek tenses that God Himself chose to use to teach us His truths—as opposed to the falsehoods of OSAS invented and taught by some of the early Reformers in the 16th century! –or does it require something more than common sense to read and understand the Scriptures as God gave them to us?
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
How many people who speak English as their first language know the etymology of the English word ‘faith’? By the way, “Isreal” is not a word; but “Israel” is.

faith (n.)
mid-13c., faith, feith, fei, fai "faithfulness to a trust or promise; loyalty to a person; honesty, truthfulness," from Anglo-French and Old French feid, foi "faith, belief, trust, confidence; pledge" (11c.), from Latin fides "trust, faith, confidence, reliance, credence, belief," from root of fidere "to trust,"from PIE root *bheidh- "to trust, confide, persuade." For sense evolution, see belief. Accommodated to other English abstract nouns in -th (truth, health, etc.).


From early 14c. as "assent of the mind to the truth of a statement for which there is incomplete evidence," especially "belief in religious matters" (matched with hope and charity). Since mid-14c. in reference to the Christian church or religion; from late 14c. in reference to any religious persuasion....

https://www.etymonline.com/word/faith
We are on a religious site with discussion about the Biblical concepts including some Greek and Hebrew words. Especially since those are the original languages of the Bible including Aramaic a close relation to Hebrew. Kind of like middle English to modern English.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
The word for faith in Hebrew meant a strong continuous holding fast to a belief. Also going into Greek from Hebrew there was a great difficulty.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
398
83
The scriptures do not say,

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

The scriptures say,

27 τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἐμὰ τῆς φωνῆς μου ἀκούουσιν, κἀγὼ γινώσκω αὐτὰ καὶ ἀκολουθοῦσίν μοι,
28 κἀγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου.

We know your explanation of the English translation of these two verses found in 1769 edition of the King James Version of the Bible. Now please give us your explanation of these two verses found in the Scriptures, and explain to us the significance of the Greek tenses that God Himself chose to use to teach us His truths—as opposed to the falsehoods of OSAS invented and taught by some of the early Reformers in the 16th century! –or does it require something more than common sense to read and understand the Scriptures as God gave them to us?
ROFL
You have entered the Quinquarticular Controversy, Calvinism vs Arminianism. Look at point 5 of each.
The early elders gave us the creeds that state what a Christian must believe. All else is agree to disagree.

Quinquarticular Controversy
The diametrically opposed Calvinist and Arminian 5 points

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Arminianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

For a deeper discussion of the differences go to these web sites,

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

Arminianism vs Calvinism Controversial Passages
https://www.xenos.org/essays/calvinism-arminianism-controversial-passages

There are denominations adhering to Calvinism, Arminianism, and parts of each creating a spectrum of different views of these issues.

Calvinism Arminianism debate
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Calvinist–Arminian_debate

Biblical Defense of Calvinism
https://www.fivesolas.com/tulipscriptures.htm

Biblical Defense of Arminianism
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/theology/calvinism-versus-arminianism/biblical-defense-of-arminianism/
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