OSAS= House Built on Sand
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Here is what I posted:
I do not believe we no longer belong to the Shepherd if/when we are lost.
I don't believe that when the born again believer is lost (in need of repentance), he or she is exactly the same as before becoming born again. The born again believer who is lost still has the riches of the mystery, which is Christ in you the hope of glory (Col 1:27) within. It is this Christ within the believer which urges the believer to repent. He helps the believer when repentance is needed.
It appears to me that justpassinthrough (and others) believe Christ leaves the born again believer. That is why justpassinthrough believes the born again believer in need of repentance becomes "just as he was before he belonged to the shepherd".
I do not believe we no longer belong to the Shepherd if/when we are lost.
I don't believe that when the born again believer is lost (in need of repentance), he or she is exactly the same as before becoming born again. The born again believer who is lost still has the riches of the mystery, which is Christ in you the hope of glory (Col 1:27) within. It is this Christ within the believer which urges the believer to repent. He helps the believer when repentance is needed.
It appears to me that justpassinthrough (and others) believe Christ leaves the born again believer. That is why justpassinthrough believes the born again believer in need of repentance becomes "just as he was before he belonged to the shepherd".
ok. we'll go through it with the woman and the coin.
Please notice that the coin was found in the woman's home. The text indicates the woman swept the house and searched diligently until she found it. It was in her own home ... not out in the highways and byways where some stranger could find it and spend it.
And as I discussed previously, I do not believe any of these parables relate to salvation or loss of salvation.
I believe the parables were spoken specifically to the pharisees and scribes as reproof because they separated themselves from publicans and sinners and murmured that Jesus received sinners and ate with them (Luke 15:2). In Luke 16:15, we see Jesus point blank call the pharisees and scribes out for their error.
And I know you believe the parables are spoken to show the publicans and sinners were in need of repentance. However, why would the pharisees and scribes need a parable to understand that? The pharisees and scribes already knew the publicans and sinners were in need of repentance - that's why they isolated themselves from them and murmured when Jesus received them and ate the them.
What the pharisees and scribes did not understand was that their behavior in isolating themselves from publicans and sinners as well as their murmuring because Jesus did not isolate Himself from publicans and sinners was being addressed in the parables.
You refuse to acknowledge this truth even though Luke 16:15 shows it is the pharisees and scribes who are being rebuked for their behavior.
Please notice that the coin was found in the woman's home. The text indicates the woman swept the house and searched diligently until she found it. It was in her own home ... not out in the highways and byways where some stranger could find it and spend it.
And as I discussed previously, I do not believe any of these parables relate to salvation or loss of salvation.
I believe the parables were spoken specifically to the pharisees and scribes as reproof because they separated themselves from publicans and sinners and murmured that Jesus received sinners and ate with them (Luke 15:2). In Luke 16:15, we see Jesus point blank call the pharisees and scribes out for their error.
And I know you believe the parables are spoken to show the publicans and sinners were in need of repentance. However, why would the pharisees and scribes need a parable to understand that? The pharisees and scribes already knew the publicans and sinners were in need of repentance - that's why they isolated themselves from them and murmured when Jesus received them and ate the them.
What the pharisees and scribes did not understand was that their behavior in isolating themselves from publicans and sinners as well as their murmuring because Jesus did not isolate Himself from publicans and sinners was being addressed in the parables.
You refuse to acknowledge this truth even though Luke 16:15 shows it is the pharisees and scribes who are being rebuked for their behavior.
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17
- And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
- If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
- And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.
- But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
JPT
Actually, it is your own doctrine which states people are not allowed to repent because it subjects Christ to public disgrace. Scripture does not state what you claim.
Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
What the text states is that if/when a born again believer falls away it is not available for the born again one to be renewed again to repentance (repentance to salvation) because they cannot be born again over and over and over.
We are born again one time.
After that, if/when we need forgiveness, we do not repent to become born again a second, third, fourth, and on and on ad infinitum.
When we need forgiveness, we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the repentance afforded to the believer after he/she is born again.
The repentance to salvation is: that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Rom 10:9-10).
This is a one time confession unto salvation. After we've done this and are born again, we don’t confess unto salvation every time we sin.
Under your doctrine, if/when a person strays, he or she must be born again over and over and over … and that puts Christ to an open shame because you are saying that His death, resurrection, and ascension was insufficient and the born again believer must become born again a second, third, fourth, on and on and on, which is impossible because it puts our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ back on the cross and puts Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
What the text states is that if/when a born again believer falls away it is not available for the born again one to be renewed again to repentance (repentance to salvation) because they cannot be born again over and over and over.
We are born again one time.
After that, if/when we need forgiveness, we do not repent to become born again a second, third, fourth, and on and on ad infinitum.
When we need forgiveness, we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is the repentance afforded to the believer after he/she is born again.
The repentance to salvation is: that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (Rom 10:9-10).
This is a one time confession unto salvation. After we've done this and are born again, we don’t confess unto salvation every time we sin.
Under your doctrine, if/when a person strays, he or she must be born again over and over and over … and that puts Christ to an open shame because you are saying that His death, resurrection, and ascension was insufficient and the born again believer must become born again a second, third, fourth, on and on and on, which is impossible because it puts our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ back on the cross and puts Him to an open shame.
12 “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17
Are heathens and tax collectors saved?
JPT
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17
- And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray.
- If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
- And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.
- But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Are heathens and tax collectors saved?
JPT