The False Church
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The phrase "IS PRESENT" (verse 2) is "perfect indicative active" (always translated "IS PRESENT"). This is what they were not to be convinced, by anyone, was true (which would be easy for them to believe, given their present and ongoing, negative circumstances, per chpt. 1). It makes no sense to me that they would have this kind of negative reaction (expressed in v.2) to the idea that JESUS HIMSELF ["THE Messiah"] "IS PRESENT [perfect indicative active]," (and by the way, there's no definite article in the phrase "of Christ," as in "the day OF CHRIST/Messiah"... just mentioning this in passing).
"that day [from v.2, not v.1] WILL NOT BE PRESENT if NOT shall have come THE Departure FIRST [ONE thing FIRST (the NOUN EVENT from v.1)] AND the man of sin be revealed" (when he is revealed, THAT is when "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" and it will unfold upon the earth over the course of some period of time [I believe it INCLUDES: the 7-yr trib upon the earth, His Second Coming to the earth, AND the 1000-yr earthly MK... all three... and all three EARTHLY]).
"that day [from v.2, not v.1] WILL NOT BE PRESENT if NOT shall have come THE Departure FIRST [ONE thing FIRST (the NOUN EVENT from v.1)] AND the man of sin be revealed" (when he is revealed, THAT is when "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" and it will unfold upon the earth over the course of some period of time [I believe it INCLUDES: the 7-yr trib upon the earth, His Second Coming to the earth, AND the 1000-yr earthly MK... all three... and all three EARTHLY]).
I haven't found anything added in the Calvin's teaching, he expounded on the scripture faithfully. He had the courage to deal with the hard doctrines and accept them as they are, while Arminius caved into to the demands of sinful men and took Gods glory and gave it to sinners to apiece them.
The Bible left nothing for man to boast about, all the honor and glory is ascribed to God so sinful man demanded some glory for himself and Arminius conjured up his man made gospel which puts wicked men on Gods throne.
The Bible left nothing for man to boast about, all the honor and glory is ascribed to God so sinful man demanded some glory for himself and Arminius conjured up his man made gospel which puts wicked men on Gods throne.
Well I have never listened to him nor can I attest to his being a saved man but I would not tell someone to not listen to anyone who is anti-Calvinist just because they do not worship Calvin.
Now most Calvinists are far more rabid in their Calvinism that Calvin himself would have been. Modern Calvinists grossly over state all the five points of the TULIP.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Now most Calvinists are far more rabid in their Calvinism that Calvin himself would have been. Modern Calvinists grossly over state all the five points of the TULIP.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Pardon me but you only know what your Calvinist teachers have told you about Calvin. Just the way you fashion your argument reveals that you because of what you have been taught feel it necessary to slay the straw man of Arminianism. Calvin started a religious movement that was part of the reformation. The reformation was in response to the Roman Catholic church teaching that salvation was based on works.
A little truth here and a little truth there four hundred years latter where did the truth go? Stop framing your beliefs on mans reasoning and reason from the scriptures. Not the reasoning that men have used to create isms to enslave people but the truth that Christ gives which sets men free.
My observation would be that Calvinists have more zeal for Calvin than they demonstrate for Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A little truth here and a little truth there four hundred years latter where did the truth go? Stop framing your beliefs on mans reasoning and reason from the scriptures. Not the reasoning that men have used to create isms to enslave people but the truth that Christ gives which sets men free.
My observation would be that Calvinists have more zeal for Calvin than they demonstrate for Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Please allow me to educate you on an extremity important fact, we don't believe in Calvin. We believe in Christ, Calvin became famous because he was able to expound the Gospel better than anyone else up until his time.
Now I may very well claim that I know the Gospel even better than he did because I have the added advantage of having full and easy access to all of the works of every Bible scholar and theologian over the last 2000 years.
Poor Calvin had to scratch around to get a few bits of scripture here and there, but he used what few means he had very wisely. People are much dumber in our days, they have everything at their disposal but they are more confused than ever before.
Now I may very well claim that I know the Gospel even better than he did because I have the added advantage of having full and easy access to all of the works of every Bible scholar and theologian over the last 2000 years.
Poor Calvin had to scratch around to get a few bits of scripture here and there, but he used what few means he had very wisely. People are much dumber in our days, they have everything at their disposal but they are more confused than ever before.
Whilst I do thoroughly enjoy slaying Arminian straw men, it must be remembered that there are only two ways to understand the scriptures which deal with how a person is saved. You know that the Bible supports Calvin's view far far far more than it does Arminius, if you only acknowledged that fact I would rest my case. Those two ways are the only way of understanding that doctrine, there is no third way.
Let me address this ^ here briefly with a question of my own. Do you believe Jesus [presently, ascended/exalted] STILL does not "know" (the following)? :
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
I hear it repeatedly, that if you don't believe Jesus STILL does not "know," then you are calling God a LIAR! Because THESE VERSES SAY SO! (these are the ONLY two options the person allows for).
If you answer "yes, He still does not 'know'...," then I would say I disagree with you.
Here's my explanation of why:
--the CONTEXT is His Second Coming to the earth (not our Rapture--though there IS a Rapture as well, this context is not covering that subject)
--"know" is in the "perfect tense," which means that it is true up until another truth UPDATES it with further-info/any-changes
--in the Matt22 passage, verses 7-8 supply a specific SEQUENCE, with verse 7 referring to the events of 70ad ('burned up their city') and verse 8 telling of what happens AFTER THAT, "THEN SAITH HE to His servants"... Jesus was in Heaven during the "after 70ad" events, recall... yet this passage states "THEN SAITH HE to His Servants...". What we have in The Revelation, is (as stated in verse 1), "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass [4:1] IN QUICKNESS [noun]..." [not events over the course of some 2000 yrs], and there He discloses FURTHER INFORMATION on THAT very subject
... therefore (and without explaining in detail, for lack of time), I believe Jesus has "known" ever since His resurrection/ascension/exaltation
... and later [95ad] gave FURTHER INFO on THAT very subject, which (especially for those living IN that future specific time period [see "servants of our God" in 7:4, for example]) ought to be able to come to "know"/understand, as well, if they will heed His Word (or those who are bringing it, at that time--We see the "a great multitude... of all the nations" in 7:9,14 who have responded favorably to the particular message of that future time period, for example). The thing is, we are told that many will disregard His Word at that time (just as in Noah's day... ).
[in the case of the Revelation (95ad) and the "THEN SAITH HE to His servants" v.8 of the Matt22 passage. From there, one can view what the earlier part of the passage says, and who and what THAT previous part is specifically referring to...]
It seems to me you are missing all the important words of our God to us. First, to sin means death. That is what happened when Adam and Eve changed the world at the beginning to include time and sin. If we disregard the way God gave us to avoid death by sin so we are under law for our survival, it still means death. The only way out is to be under grace, and this means that we REPENT of our sins and ask for forgiveness, for grace to happen for us,.
The idea that God has one way for Jews and another for gentiles is not scripture. Over, over and again over God tole the Jews that God was leading to show us how He operated in our lives God told them it was for all men, not just for them. Do read scripture.
The new covenant did not change God, God is eternal. It made forgiveness more available to us, but God principle (as we are told over and over) remain the same.
God is a Hebrew God, not Roman or Greek or American. So we need to understand Hebrews to understand Him. But God created those Romans, Greeks and Americans and God wants us to look to the Hebrews to understand God. But God never said He was a God of only the Hebrew that God created to use to show how God operates. The idea is for us to look at what God did with them for it shows God principles for us.
The idea that God has one way for Jews and another for gentiles is not scripture. Over, over and again over God tole the Jews that God was leading to show us how He operated in our lives God told them it was for all men, not just for them. Do read scripture.
The new covenant did not change God, God is eternal. It made forgiveness more available to us, but God principle (as we are told over and over) remain the same.
God is a Hebrew God, not Roman or Greek or American. So we need to understand Hebrews to understand Him. But God created those Romans, Greeks and Americans and God wants us to look to the Hebrews to understand God. But God never said He was a God of only the Hebrew that God created to use to show how God operates. The idea is for us to look at what God did with them for it shows God principles for us.
Wow so you believe scripture based on what Calvin did? I highly doubt that the Lord intended for men to believe because of what Calvin is reported to have believed.
You really should listen to yourself sometime. Calvin this and Calvin that down with mean old Arminius. Wow where does Jesus fit into Calvinism?
Believing is not a work but working begins when you first believe.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You really should listen to yourself sometime. Calvin this and Calvin that down with mean old Arminius. Wow where does Jesus fit into Calvinism?
Believing is not a work but working begins when you first believe.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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To be under the law means that you go to the law for eternal life. In order to gain eternal life under the law you must obey every single law, both the spirit of the law and the legal law.
Are you actually make the statement that Jews go to obedience of every law for forgiveness, and no Jew reads any scripture pertaining to grace? That would be impossible and would condemn all Jews to death, when in fact scripture tells us they are blessed. It would make scripture a lie.
Are you actually make the statement that Jews go to obedience of every law for forgiveness, and no Jew reads any scripture pertaining to grace? That would be impossible and would condemn all Jews to death, when in fact scripture tells us they are blessed. It would make scripture a lie.
Roger said,
Calvin
I have to fully agree with that and wonder if most Calvinist know the evil side of John Calvin's history. He once beheaded a 10 year old girl for striking her parents.
Describing a short period of Calvin’s rule he says, “One counts 30 executions of men and 28 of women, subdivided by method of death: 13 persons hanged, 10 beheaded, 55 quartered, 35 burned alive after being tortured.”
Reporting the religious persecutions of Calvin, author Jean Tet affirms that “from 1542 to 1546, which was the softer period of his government, we count 58 capital executions, 76 banishments and 900 imprisonments.”
He was a serial killer.
A serial killer is traditionally defined as a person who has killed three or more people over a period of more than a month, with down time (a “cooling off period”) between the murders, and whose motivation for killing is usually based on psychological gratification —>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer
I can't imagine why anybody would call themselves a Calvinist.
Calvin
I have to fully agree with that and wonder if most Calvinist know the evil side of John Calvin's history. He once beheaded a 10 year old girl for striking her parents.
Describing a short period of Calvin’s rule he says, “One counts 30 executions of men and 28 of women, subdivided by method of death: 13 persons hanged, 10 beheaded, 55 quartered, 35 burned alive after being tortured.”
Reporting the religious persecutions of Calvin, author Jean Tet affirms that “from 1542 to 1546, which was the softer period of his government, we count 58 capital executions, 76 banishments and 900 imprisonments.”
He was a serial killer.
A serial killer is traditionally defined as a person who has killed three or more people over a period of more than a month, with down time (a “cooling off period”) between the murders, and whose motivation for killing is usually based on psychological gratification —>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer
I can't imagine why anybody would call themselves a Calvinist.
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I might have said it before but just in case you missed it, I said that Calvin was the first to correctly interpret the Gospel. Before him we had the dark ages where the scriptures were hidden away and only the pope had access to them. So Calvin became famous for rightly interpreting the Gospel.
Arminius was deceived by the popes works based Gospel, Calvin was not, that's why we agree with Calvin. You can have your pope and Arminius all to yourself but don't push heresy on me, thank you
Arminius was deceived by the popes works based Gospel, Calvin was not, that's why we agree with Calvin. You can have your pope and Arminius all to yourself but don't push heresy on me, thank you
To that, I will just say, I don't know how many Calvinist friends of mine have completely misquoted Eph1:4 to be saying [instead], "hath chosen us before the foundation of the world" (completely leaving out the very important fact and phrase of "IN HIM"... "hath chosen us IN HIM..."); and repeatedly say that there is no discernable difference (in their opinion) between the phrases "BEFORE [G4253 - pro] the foundation of the world" (as it says here) and "FROM [G575 - apo] the foundation of the world," of which [and this is just one thing], I believe there is a world of difference; and have incorrectly designated the "us" (of this text) to mean "all believers of all time periods" as a blanket statement applicable to all saints from the beginning of time (and even all throughout the future promised and prophesied earthly MK, following His "return" to the earth at His Second Coming [that is, clear to the GWTj]). Context is often disregarded. I agree it's plain, but changing such things to have them say something else is what I continually hear from my Calvinist friends, as I said.
The "IN HIM" simply means that nobody is saved outside of Him and "US" is referring to those elect who are the hearers of the scripture.
There are so many other scriptures which confirm Calvin's view, here are some below.
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2 Corinthians 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
2 Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work Reprobate.
There are so many other scriptures which confirm Calvin's view, here are some below.
- "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
- "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).
- "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?"
- And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).
- "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27)
Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2 Corinthians 13:6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
2 Corinthians 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work Reprobate.