OSAS= House Built on Sand

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
No one is saying we do not continue to believe in the Christian life, however we are saved completely when Jesus has truly been the object of our faith, belief/faith is only the instrument, justification is wholly from God, "fait accompli" finished.

The problem in your reasoning comes from ...
1) it fails to acknowledge the enduring result of the faith that is wholly from God

2) the loss of salvation by necessity implies something we failed to do, if a person fails and then the other does not the one who does not fail is able to boast, capisci?
And I'll add that you dodged my point by not explaining how believing the first time is not self-effort, whereas continued believing is.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
No, I do acknowledge the enduring result of Christ's death - our justification.

And again, you reasoning is absurd. Your one-time faith allows you to boast over those who never had it.

There is no boasting in faith. It recognizes that GOD alone gets all of the glory.
I am not a Calvinist, I believe that faith comes from hearing and it is not a gift from God to select people.

That's right there is no boasting in faith, it is only the instrument, boasting only happens when you redefine faith or say you can loose it and loose salvation.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
Think how silly your statement is. Do I have "faith" that I was born naturally, the product of my Earthly parents becoming one flesh? Utterly absurd! The fact of my existence speaks of my "faith' that I was born.

I don't need faith in my new birth. My spiritual Father begat me by the faith, HE GAVE ME, in His Son's death and subsequent resurrection. I am reborn His Child because of Who His Son is, and what His Son has done for me, and to me.

So let's just cut to the chase here. ARE YOU, RIGHT NOW, A BORN AGAIN CHILD OF GOD? And if so, tell me how you become unborn.
It's not a matter of being "unborn", but of being disinherited. There are many examples in scripture of those who were rightful heirs being disinherited from receiving the promises of GOD due to their disobedience.

.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Ralph, consider the possibility that those who are engaging in this madness with you - saying that we don't have to believe until the end, yet saying that they still believe - at some point neglected the faith they had at a younger age, and then realizing their error, returned to the faith later in life. Thus there may be some guilt issues going on that is causing this resistance and animosity to this very basic and clearly witnessed reality that we have to persevere in the faith until the end.
That and perhaps these people are struggling with doubt, and, living in failure as a Christian. They need to know as long as they don't go back to the world in outright unbelief and a denial of Christ that their faith in Christ, as weak as it may be, keeps them justified before the Father in heaven.

But 'once saved always saved' is the false gospel they have turned to to relieve the pressure of their doubts and sinful failures when the real answer is to keep believing Christ is the payment for their sins of weakness and ignorance and doubt they commit (no need to invent an ear tickling doctrine that says they are saved no matter what). And to remember the only sin Christ can't cover is the willful decision to go back to the world in unbelief. But 'once saved always saved' has deceived them into thinking they can go back to the world in defeat and they are still saved.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
I believed at a point in time in the past and was born into God's family. I am continuing to believe in his sacrifice and hanging on to Jesus as my Savior.

Am I saved because I believe? Well - I am saved because God's grace has worked and is continuing to work in my heart so that I am able to respond by believing in Him! Praise the Lord!

Is that saving myself by works or self-effort? Of course not! Ridiculous!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
Think how silly your statement is. Do I have "faith" that I was born naturally, the product of my Earthly parents becoming one flesh? Utterly absurd! The fact of my existence speaks of my "faith' that I was born.

I don't need faith in my new birth. My spiritual Father begat me by the faith, HE GAVE ME, in His Son's death and subsequent resurrection. I am reborn His Child because of Who His Son is, and what His Son has done for me, and to me.

So let's just cut to the chase here. ARE YOU, RIGHT NOW, A BORN AGAIN CHILD OF GOD? And if so, tell me how you become unborn.
Question for you: Were you once a child of the Devil (like I was at one time)? So tell me, how did you cease being a child of the Devil?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,110
1,962
113
THIS has to do with "inheritance" (the package deal we receive once we faithe on Christ):

Romans 8 -

"15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received [aorist indicative active] the Spirit of [divine] adoption of sons [not "as sons"], whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

The "adoption of sons" is not like our present-day "adopting someone TO BE our son," but the package-deal "inheritance" we receive when we believe on [trust in] Christ for salvation. It pertains to "the God-given right to act in His name," and we have this only by virtue of being connected "with [G4862] Christ" (IN Him).
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
And I'll add that you dodged my point by not explaining how believing the first time is not self-effort, whereas continued believing is.
The self-effort doing more than what God requires to be saved.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,821
8,596
113
Question for you: Were you once a child of the Devil (like I was at one time)? So tell me, how did you cease being a child of the Devil?
It's a good question Chester. There are at least 2 passages that somewhat deal with this question. In both passages we ALL at least walked liked the sons of disobedience who have the spirit of the prince of the power of the air. So it might be fair to say that if we were not literally children of the devil, we at least acted in a way that was indistinguishable from them.

Ephesians 2:2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Collosians 3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.


So I was DEAD in my sins. Dead means NOT alive. Spiritually speaking I was dead. A dead person cannot do ANYTHING but be dead. There is no logical explanation as to why the desire came on me to even entertain the Gospel, much less believe and accept it. My life consisted of parties, and when the next one would come and most of the lists of bad, sinful stuff listed in several places. Why would I WANT to give that up?

Now my dead FLESH tries to come back to life ALL the time. And unfortunately I still sometimes forget that it IS dead and succumb to it and sin. This happens because of a failure to walk every moment in the Spirit. Because those are our only 2 options. Every second, of every day, we either walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh.

To directly answer your question, whether a child of the devil, or just plain dead doesn't matter. What matters is that God drew me to Him. As I look back i can see exactly how He did that, and how He kept me physically alive, although I should have died several times over, UNTIL I was made His Child. I do not have an exact date of when that occurred, but I believe it was in 1992.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,821
8,596
113
It's not a matter of being "unborn", but of being disinherited. There are many examples in scripture of those who were rightful heirs being disinherited from receiving the promises of GOD due to their disobedience.

.
Why did you not answer my question?

I have 2 sons. For a whole host of reasons I may decide to give all to just one and "disinherit" the other. (I almost certainly won't do that). One may be more reliable, or worthy, or obedient. But in NO scenario would EITHER son no longer be my son. And although one may not inherit much, he will always be allowed on my land.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
It's a good question Chester. There are at least 2 passages that somewhat deal with this question. In both passages we ALL at least walked liked the sons of disobedience who have the spirit of the prince of the power of the air. So it might be fair to say that if we were not literally children of the devil, we at least acted in a way that was indistinguishable from them.

Ephesians 2:2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Collosians 3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.


So I was DEAD in my sins. Dead means NOT alive. Spiritually speaking I was dead. A dead person cannot do ANYTHING but be dead. There is no logical explanation as to why the desire came on me to even entertain the Gospel, much less believe and accept it. My life consisted of parties, and when the next one would come and most of the lists of bad, sinful stuff listed in several places. Why would I WANT to give that up?

Now my dead FLESH tries to come back to life ALL the time. And unfortunately I still sometimes forget that it IS dead and succumb to it and sin. This happens because of a failure to walk every moment in the Spirit. Because those are our only 2 options. Every second, of every day, we either walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh.

To directly answer your question, whether a child of the devil, or just plain dead doesn't matter. What matters is that God drew me to Him. As I look back i can see exactly how He did that, and how He kept me physically alive, although I should have died several times over, UNTIL I was made His Child. I do not have an exact date of when that occurred, but I believe it was in 1992.
It is the goodness of God not the severity of God that leads men to repentance.

Dead in this illustration is Spiritual death not physical death. Calvinists often overstate Spiritual death in relation to physical death. Man cannot save himself but God is merciful and reaches down into the miry clay to lift men out. Those who perish are those who turn away from the goodness of God and raise their goodness up in place of Gods goodness.

Why did some in the camp turn away from the firey serpent instead of just looking upon it? They choose death as opposed to life by believing.

Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
113
Why did you not answer my question?

I have 2 sons. For a whole host of reasons I may decide to give all to just one and "disinherit" the other. (I almost certainly won't do that). One may be more reliable, or worthy, or obedient. But in NO scenario would EITHER son no longer be my son. And although one may not inherit much, he will always be allowed on my land.
I did answer your question by pointing out that your point is irrelevant because birth is not a guarantee of inheritance. Numerous people in the bible who were rightful heirs were disinherited from receiving the promises of GOD (e.g., Ishmael, Esau, Reuben, King Saul, the nation of Israel, etc).
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,271
113
That's what I've been saying. But I'm being told my continued believing is me trying to save myself by what I do as if believing is a work of the works gospel.
And? IS it? Yes or no answer...;)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
It's a good question Chester. There are at least 2 passages that somewhat deal with this question. In both passages we ALL at least walked liked the sons of disobedience who have the spirit of the prince of the power of the air. So it might be fair to say that if we were not literally children of the devil, we at least acted in a way that was indistinguishable from them.

Ephesians 2:2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Collosians 3:6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.


So I was DEAD in my sins. Dead means NOT alive. Spiritually speaking I was dead. A dead person cannot do ANYTHING but be dead. There is no logical explanation as to why the desire came on me to even entertain the Gospel, much less believe and accept it. My life consisted of parties, and when the next one would come and most of the lists of bad, sinful stuff listed in several places. Why would I WANT to give that up?

Now my dead FLESH tries to come back to life ALL the time. And unfortunately I still sometimes forget that it IS dead and succumb to it and sin. This happens because of a failure to walk every moment in the Spirit. Because those are our only 2 options. Every second, of every day, we either walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh.

To directly answer your question, whether a child of the devil, or just plain dead doesn't matter. What matters is that God drew me to Him. As I look back i can see exactly how He did that, and how He kept me physically alive, although I should have died several times over, UNTIL I was made His Child. I do not have an exact date of when that occurred, but I believe it was in 1992.
Thanks, Penned, for the beautiful and clear response and testimony! Your are a wonderful man!

My quibble has nothing to do with your character or testimony - that speaks for itself.

But your analogy of "once a son then always a son" just does not stand up to careful analysis. You use it to say that once a Christian then we are always a Christian. But when I point out that we were all children of the Devil, but are no longer children of the Devil, you just skirt the issue. If "once a son always a son" is true, then once a child of the Devil always a child of the Devil.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
That's what I've been saying. But I'm being told my continued believing is me trying to save myself by what I do as if believing is a work of the works gospel.
And? IS it? Yes or no answer...;)
Is continuing to believe a "work of the works gospel"? Absolutely not! Continuing to believe is a work of God's grace in the heart :whistle: :)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,821
8,596
113
It is the goodness of God not the severity of God that leads men to repentance.

Dead in this illustration is Spiritual death not physical death. Calvinists often overstate Spiritual death in relation to physical death. Man cannot save himself but God is merciful and reaches down into the miry clay to lift men out. Those who perish are those who turn away from the goodness of God and raise their goodness up in place of Gods goodness.

Why did some in the camp turn away from the firey serpent instead of just looking upon it? They choose death as opposed to life by believing.

Nu 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I said I spiritually dead Roger. In that dead state, there was NO way I would have chose Him. That is what Ephesians 2: 8-9 are about. WE CANNOT muster the faith to believe. That faith has to be a gift, given to us by God. WE will ALWAYS choose sin unless He gives us the faith to believe in His Son.

You can't really explain why you believe the Creator of everything, became a man, allowed Himself to be tortured, crucified, and die, and raised to life on the 3rd day. You just KNOW you believe.

Sure. NOW you could point to Scripture, the fulfillment of prophecy, your new birth, to other Christians and they might understand, but the Word tells us this is foolishness to us before we are saved. And if you step outside the Christian perspective for sec, it IS foolishness.

I could just as easily say you have to collect the tails of 25 duck-billed platypus's to be saved. Or accomplish the 5 pillars of islam. Or follow the entire Mosaic Law. Etc....

These are just as believable a way to salvation as Believing in Jesus to the dead unsaved.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,271
113
Is continuing to believe a "work of the works gospel"? Absolutely not! Continuing to believe is a work of God's grace in the heart :whistle::)
Yes.. Agree with you..was kinda putting my question to ralph..sorry for the misunderstanding..lol
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
That and perhaps these people are struggling with doubt, and, living in failure as a Christian. They need to know as long as they don't go back to the world in outright unbelief and a denial of Christ that their faith in Christ, as weak as it may be, keeps them justified before the Father in heaven.

But 'once saved always saved' is the false gospel they have turned to to relieve the pressure of their doubts and sinful failures when the real answer is to keep believing Christ is the payment for their sins of weakness and ignorance and doubt they commit (no need to invent an ear tickling doctrine that says they are saved no matter what). And to remember the only sin Christ can't cover is the willful decision to go back to the world in unbelief. But 'once saved always saved' has deceived them into thinking they can go back to the world in defeat and they are still saved.
R....,

True...and it is interesting that the OSAS interpretation of scriptures...without scriptures, I might add.....is not found as part of the christian teachings or applications before the 1960's....that we can find in research...so far.
Why is that a significant point......because we had a moral and social revolution in that era and because of guilt from having been taught in school and church many had to find a way to ...tickle their ears...and relieve their guilt. So, several new age religion interpretations were forthcoming to accomplish that goal...OSAS is one of them. It is not biblical based..