OSAS= House Built on Sand
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Yes, indeed it is clear that the "gift of God is eternal life" (Rom. 6:23). The Bible says so! When we believe in Christ, we receive that gift! No argument with that - Amen, praise the Lord!
What is eternal life? John says (John 17:2) "and this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." That is real living! - to know Jesus Christ - that is eternal life!
To make "eternal life" primarily into "living forever" devalues the concept. Even unbelievers will "live forever" in hell fire -- but they do not have "eternal life". This relationship with Christ (life!) will never be taken from the one who hears and follows the Master. He will have it forever and will know and experience in deeper and deeper ways what really knowing Jesus is - in heaven and for all eternity.
All this and more are the wonderful truths for the believer who has been justified by the Lamb of God!
But where do you get that "justification is permanent and irrevocable"? Romans 11:29 does not say that! If you try to say it says that the "gifts" of God cannot be changed and the "gift" of eternal life (Rom. 6;23) therefore cannot be changed, then you will have to let others string together words from different verses to make their own points.
Romans 8:30: a beautiful verse with wonderful deep truths for the Christian! But it does not say that justification is eternal?! To make that verse say that "justification is eternal" you have to bring in your own preconceived theology and force it into the verse.
As I asked earlier: Where is the verse that clearly says that once a person has been justified (born again) that this justification is eternal and irrevocable?
What is eternal life? John says (John 17:2) "and this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." That is real living! - to know Jesus Christ - that is eternal life!
To make "eternal life" primarily into "living forever" devalues the concept. Even unbelievers will "live forever" in hell fire -- but they do not have "eternal life". This relationship with Christ (life!) will never be taken from the one who hears and follows the Master. He will have it forever and will know and experience in deeper and deeper ways what really knowing Jesus is - in heaven and for all eternity.
All this and more are the wonderful truths for the believer who has been justified by the Lamb of God!
But where do you get that "justification is permanent and irrevocable"? Romans 11:29 does not say that! If you try to say it says that the "gifts" of God cannot be changed and the "gift" of eternal life (Rom. 6;23) therefore cannot be changed, then you will have to let others string together words from different verses to make their own points.
Romans 8:30: a beautiful verse with wonderful deep truths for the Christian! But it does not say that justification is eternal?! To make that verse say that "justification is eternal" you have to bring in your own preconceived theology and force it into the verse.
As I asked earlier: Where is the verse that clearly says that once a person has been justified (born again) that this justification is eternal and irrevocable?
Translation........
Thus speaketh the Lord God...... I am a revolving door of righteousness, the lather -rinse - repeat righteousness..... as long as you keep on believing in the lather - rinse - repeat righteousness cycle you will be saved.
Philippians 3:9ylt -
"9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through [by means of] faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith"
["THE faith" is "that body of truth" as found in the NT following His death and resurrection--1Cor15:1-4, "wherein ye stand"]
[and if anyone wants to say the Philippians 3 context refers to our future (like, the Rapture, or even just our physical "resurrection," because of v.11), to that, I would say that Paul is here referring to THE HERE AND NOW, in this context--note "the mind" at beginning of chpt 2 and end of chpt 3 (that is a part of "mind/will/emotion" i.e. SOUL)]
Translation........
Thus speaketh the Lord God...... I am a revolving door of righteousness, the lather -rinse - repeat righteousness..... as long as you keep on believing in the lather - rinse - repeat righteousness cycle you will be saved.
When and as I believe in Him - that is - I love and adore my Saviour - I worship, praise, and depend on His righteousness and power hour by hour of each day - I need not live on my own strength, but rest on Him and Him alone -- PTL!
Then the blood of Christ cleanses me from each and every sin that I may commit. When I sin (and I do sometimes
) God forgives me immediately and never lays the sin to my charge! Why? Because Jesus paid the full price for my sin! I do not have to pay for and never will have to pay for it! Praise the Lord.Yes, indeed, I am ongoingly cleansed (lather and rinse as you say!
) by the blood of Christ. Otherwise I would have no chance of making heaven! I love my Saviour and my Redeemer!
I am probably overly simplistic - - but I take it to mean just what it says:
Ephesians 1:13,14:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory
After we have heard and believe - then He gives us the Holy Spirit which is a seal (mark) that we belong to him. This is our down-payment (a small token of something greater coming) that will stay with us until Christ comes back to redeem us for his own!
A fantastic promise to believers in Christ!
Oh, I see you asked - "Who can break that seal?" I don't know - these verses do not say . . .
- but this I do know - when I believe in Christ I have that promise of the Holy Spirit - PTL!
- but I take it to mean just what it says:Ephesians 1:13,14:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory
After we have heard and believe - then He gives us the Holy Spirit which is a seal (mark) that we belong to him. This is our down-payment (a small token of something greater coming) that will stay with us until Christ comes back to redeem us for his own!
A fantastic promise to believers in Christ!
Oh, I see you asked - "Who can break that seal?" I don't know - these verses do not say . . .
- but this I do know - when I believe in Christ I have that promise of the Holy Spirit - PTL!
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I am probably overly simplistic - - but I take it to mean just what it says:
Ephesians 1:13,14:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory
After we have heard and believe - then He gives us the Holy Spirit which is a seal (mark) that we belong to him. This is our down-payment (a small token of something greater coming) that will stay with us until Christ comes back to redeem us for his own!
A fantastic promise to believers in Christ!
Oh, I see you asked - "Who can break that seal?" I don't know - these verses do not say . . .
- but this I do know - when I believe in Christ I have that promise of the Holy Spirit - PTL!
- but I take it to mean just what it says:Ephesians 1:13,14:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory
After we have heard and believe - then He gives us the Holy Spirit which is a seal (mark) that we belong to him. This is our down-payment (a small token of something greater coming) that will stay with us until Christ comes back to redeem us for his own!
A fantastic promise to believers in Christ!
Oh, I see you asked - "Who can break that seal?" I don't know - these verses do not say . . .
- but this I do know - when I believe in Christ I have that promise of the Holy Spirit - PTL!
Well I can tell you in fact ONLY the King can break the seal once it is placed on something, or some one. We see John crying convulsively in Revelation because NO ONE could break the seal. I understand it is a different seal, but the concept of just WHO can break it remains. Of course we know that ONLY the Lamb, Jesus Christ can break those seals.
So if you can get to the point that you can see ONLY God can break that seal HE puts on you, maybe you can get to that point to believe that HE isn't going to break the seal HE put on you. Meaning HE isn't going to remove His Spirit and take back the Eternal Salvation HE gave you.
So if you believe that only God can break that seal, then it follows that ONLY HE can remove the Holy Spirit in you. Now He also gave you the faith to believe in His Son, so He would have to take back that gift of faith as well.
Can you start to see the problems that arise by believing God would do those things? You become His Child, you do or don't do something to remain His Child, so He disowns you by removing His Spirit, and faith, and now you are no longer His Child?
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I am fine if you want to believe and think that way - for me it is enough to know that when I believe I am promised the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1 does not say who can or cannot break the seal nor does it say "once sealed always sealed". It is enough for me to know that when I believe in Him I have the down-payment of the Spirit. That is enough for me! I am 100% secure in my Redeemer! I need no more! He is faithful and will always be faithful!
Ephesians 1 does not say who can or cannot break the seal nor does it say "once sealed always sealed". It is enough for me to know that when I believe in Him I have the down-payment of the Spirit. That is enough for me!
I am 100% secure in my Redeemer! I need no more! He is faithful and will always be faithful!-
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I am fine if you want to believe and think that way - for me it is enough to know that when I believe I am promised the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1 does not say who can or cannot break the seal nor does it say "once sealed always sealed". It is enough for me to know that when I believe in Him I have the down-payment of the Spirit. That is enough for me! I am 100% secure in my Redeemer! I need no more! He is faithful and will always be faithful!
Ephesians 1 does not say who can or cannot break the seal nor does it say "once sealed always sealed". It is enough for me to know that when I believe in Him I have the down-payment of the Spirit. That is enough for me!
I am 100% secure in my Redeemer! I need no more! He is faithful and will always be faithful!
It sounds like you are saying HE will remove His Spirit and take back from you the gift of faith HE GAVE YOU.
How about forgetting all of that and concentrate on your LAST sentence:
"He is Faithful and will ALWAYS be Faithful" Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!
Welcome to the family that ALSO believes that He is ALWAYS Faithful and therefore, by YOUR OWN pronouncement, YOU ARE ETERNALLY SECURE!!!!! Woo-Hoo!
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Please, Mr. PennEd, do not make me laugh so hard! You are trying really hard to make me into an "eternal securitist"!
I do concentrate on the knowledge that He is faithful and that does make me secure! But I am secure because of Christ's grace in my heart and that grace creating ongoing faith in my heart - PTL!
But I will not believe in OSAS and thus lose my assurance and security! (Unless you can show me a verse that says OSAS plainly)
I do concentrate on the knowledge that He is faithful and that does make me secure! But I am secure because of Christ's grace in my heart and that grace creating ongoing faith in my heart - PTL!
But I will not believe in OSAS and thus lose my assurance and security! (Unless you can show me a verse that says OSAS plainly
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"]Please, Mr. PennEd, do not make me laugh so hard! You are trying really hard to make me into an "eternal securitist"!
I do concentrate on the knowledge that He is faithful and that does make me secure! But I am secure because of Christ's grace in my heart and that grace creating ongoing faith in my heart - PTL!
But I will not believe in OSAS and thus lose my assurance and security! (Unless you can show me a verse that says OSAS plainly)[/QUOTE]
Ok... After a couple yrs... Here's the answer to your much sought after OSAS verse...
John 5:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and will not be judged but HAS crossed over from death to life.
Please consult Mirriam Webster for the definition of ETERNAL!
I do concentrate on the knowledge that He is faithful and that does make me secure! But I am secure because of Christ's grace in my heart and that grace creating ongoing faith in my heart - PTL!
But I will not believe in OSAS and thus lose my assurance and security! (Unless you can show me a verse that says OSAS plainly
)[/QUOTE]Ok... After a couple yrs... Here's the answer to your much sought after OSAS verse...
John 5:24 New International Version (NIV)
24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and will not be judged but HAS crossed over from death to life.
Please consult Mirriam Webster for the definition of ETERNAL!
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E
Instead of consulting Webster just go to John 17:3 . . . here John says what eternal life is . . .
I consider John more inspired than Webster! You keep making me laugh harder all the time!
I consider John more inspired than Webster! You keep making me laugh harder all the time!
It means eternal, never ending, forever, without end,
John 17:3 does not say any different, no matter what you think it says,
All john 17:3 says is those who have eternal like know god, which is true, they not only have been born of god, they have been given Gods spirit,
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I do provide Scripture.
I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. Just as in 1 Timothy 4:1, we read - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Roman Catholicism is a good example of such a departure. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
What does this have to do with works salvation/lose salvation?
Jesus told us what was necessary for salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command of Christ to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, yet the Bible is clear that we are not saved by works, but for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
You need to stop pitting scripture against scripture. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.
The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said.
Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
I presume that you believe "depart from the faith" means that born again believers depart from saving faith in Christ and lose their salvation. Just as in 1 Timothy 4:1, we read - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
The words "the faith" (Gr. tês pisteôs) in this context means the apostolic faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Roman Catholicism is a good example of such a departure. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again. In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
What does this have to do with works salvation/lose salvation?
Jesus told us what was necessary for salvation in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. In Matthew 28:19-20, we have here a command of Christ to go and make disciples of all nations, and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, yet the Bible is clear that we are not saved by works, but for good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
You need to stop pitting scripture against scripture. You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus.
The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - keep the commandments, yet that's not what Paul said.
Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
I already explained this to you in post #1,543. - https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/osas-house-built-on-sand.178412/page-78
The Pharisees were good at making the word of God of none effect through their tradition. You are all over the place.
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Again, this is descriptive of children of disobedience, not children of God. I already explained that in post #1,543 as well.
The wages of sin is death (all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 3:23; 6:23).
Genuine faith does not remain void of evidential works. We do posses eternal life the moment we believe because Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works (Romans 3:22-28). *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
It sure is and unbelievers will be judged according to their works and will be found wanting and will be cast in the lake of fire. For some unbelievers, it will be worse! Matthew 23:14 - "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation. For believers, they will be judged to determine rewards and loss of rewards, not salvation or loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
In spite of all appearances, there was a remnant in this church which have not defiled their garments. Revelation 3:5 is another verse that impacts this issue. "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Believer/Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith."
Certain people read Revelation 3:5 as if God’s pen is poised and ready to strike out the name of any Christian who does not overcome every possible struggle in life that there is to overcome. They read into it like this: "If you don't overcome every struggle in life and win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!" But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.
He that rejected Me and receiveth not My words is descriptive of unbelievers. More works salvation/lose salvation confusion on your part. You sound over confident about your works and quick to judge others who understand that salvation is by grace through faith, not works.
Why is that?
The Pharisees were good at making the word of God of none effect through their tradition. You are all over the place.
The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.
Again, this is descriptive of children of disobedience, not children of God. I already explained that in post #1,543 as well.
The wages of sin is death (all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 3:23; 6:23).
Genuine faith does not remain void of evidential works. We do posses eternal life the moment we believe because Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works (Romans 3:22-28). *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
It sure is and unbelievers will be judged according to their works and will be found wanting and will be cast in the lake of fire. For some unbelievers, it will be worse! Matthew 23:14 - "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation. For believers, they will be judged to determine rewards and loss of rewards, not salvation or loss of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. Simple!
In spite of all appearances, there was a remnant in this church which have not defiled their garments. Revelation 3:5 is another verse that impacts this issue. "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Believer/Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith."
Certain people read Revelation 3:5 as if God’s pen is poised and ready to strike out the name of any Christian who does not overcome every possible struggle in life that there is to overcome. They read into it like this: "If you don't overcome every struggle in life and win the victory, then you’re going to lose your salvation! In fact, I will erase your name from the Book of Life!" But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here, not a warning.
He that rejected Me and receiveth not My words is descriptive of unbelievers. More works salvation/lose salvation confusion on your part. You sound over confident about your works and quick to judge others who understand that salvation is by grace through faith, not works.
Why is that?
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