Not By Works

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Dec 12, 2013
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If you don't mind me interjecting

Should the question be " do you have to keep the law to be saved?

If it's yes then stand the stand
I don't mind bro.....either way the answer is no...

Do I keep the law...NO
Do I need to keep the law to stay saved...NO
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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Works to earn grace negates grace, yet grace empowers works.

Grace gives freedom to be and do.

Trying to earn grace and love will ensnare us.
We love because he first loved us.
We do to others because he did it first to us.

Amazing Grace
How sweet that sound that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now I'm found.
I was blind but now I see.

If we could be saved by our works then Jesus would have said so.

Can anyone quote a Bible verse where Jesus said this?

Yes he said "If you love me then do this"

He never said it would save them.

"if you love me he said"

Those who love him and have placed faith in him will obey
Just do a litle test on your congregation. Ask if a person thinks they are saved, and then asses if they obey the Lord? You will find that 80% of the people that say they are saved will also admit that they do not obey the Lord in all things.

Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a process of ups and downs and sideways and straight. We do well, then we sin, but we repent and get back on the path, and we do good works and we love God and man and we do the things that God has created for us to do, and we endure to the end, at which time we are judged and at that time we are either saved unto life or damned unto death. It cannot be any other way. Jesus is going to give the gift of life to those who followed him and did what he said. He is not going to give the gift to an unworthy self centered person, no matter that they said they had a moment in their life when they were baptized of the Holy Spirit. It is a life-long pursuit for salvation.

But because we are sinners it takes Jesus to gift us into his heaven, but only after we have proven to follow him and do what he has commanded us to do. If as you say, he inputs faith and love and trust, then why do we continue to sin? If it is all imput into us, why sin? Why are we not perfect. We are saved, faith is inputed, love inputed, trust, and grace, then why are we not perfect in this life? The answer is that it is not inputed into us, we have to take action ourselves to follow and live as Jesus lived.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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So you believe eternal life is eternal, given the moment you place faith in christ and reciev his gift freely?
No, I believe that is the beginning only. There are many things that Jesus taught us in order to be saved. I want to follow his footsteps and try to be like him and do what he did. That is what it means to be "Jesus based".
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No, I believe that is the beginning only. There are many things that Jesus taught us in order to be saved. I want to follow his footsteps and try to be like him and do what he did. That is what it means to be "Jesus based".
Then you were wrong when you said you do not teach works, period.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
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Just do a litle test on your congregation. Ask if a person thinks they are saved, and then asses if they obey the Lord? You will find that 80% of the people that say they are saved will also admit that they do not obey the Lord in all things.

Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a process of ups and downs and sideways and straight. We do well, then we sin, but we repent and get back on the path, and we do good works and we love God and man and we do the things that God has created for us to do, and we endure to the end, at which time we are judged and at that time we are either saved unto life or damned unto death. It cannot be any other way. Jesus is going to give the gift of life to those who followed him and did what he said. He is not going to give the gift to an unworthy self centered person, no matter that they said they had a moment in their life when they were baptized of the Holy Spirit. It is a life-long pursuit for salvation.

But because we are sinners it takes Jesus to gift us into his heaven, but only after we have proven to follow him and do what he has commanded us to do. If as you say, he inputs faith and love and trust, then why do we continue to sin? If it is all imput into us, why sin? Why are we not perfect. We are saved, faith is inputed, love inputed, trust, and grace, then why are we not perfect in this life? The answer is that it is not inputed into us, we have to take action ourselves to follow and live as Jesus lived.
Firstly I don't have a congregation.

Secondly your first paragraph is pure assumption.
80% is not up to the 90% you accuse DC off but almost there.

Keep going with it.
You may almost get there.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Then you were wrong when you said you do not teach works, period.
Are we saved by grace through faith and not by works? Or are we saved by faith + works, based on the merits of doing our best to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, trying to be like Him and doing what he did?

It’s a rhetorical question brother. ;)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
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No, I believe that is the beginning only. There are many things that Jesus taught us in order to be saved. I want to follow his footsteps and try to be like him and do what he did. That is what it means to be "Jesus based".
Jesus said the only thing to be saved was to believe in him. Nothing more and nothing less.

He said the Holy Spirit would come to convict the world of its sin.
That sin being unbelief in him.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
As a result we will want to be like him, walk with him.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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No, I believe that is the beginning only. There are many things that Jesus taught us in order to be saved. I want to follow his footsteps and try to be like him and do what he did. That is what it means to be "Jesus based"
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works (Romans 3:22-28).
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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You state many works to be saved and add many caveats.

Not baptised before you die then not saved.

Die with one ounce of unforgiveness before you die then you are not forgiven (as you said to me)
But when I return the comment about unforgiveness you said "God will accept that and judge me according to my heart"

That's your religion.
It lacks compassion and love.
The very thing that Jesus told us to walk in.
All these things, baptism, forgiveness, are all based on the words of Jesus. That is what is meant by being "Jesus based".

Jesus said believe, so I believe.
Jesus was water baptized, so I was water baptized.
Jesus baptized by fire, so I was baptized of the spirit.
Jesus said forgive, so I forgive.
Jesus said...
Jesus said...

I could go on, but if you are "Jesus based", you do the things that Jesus did, and taught you to do. If you don't, you will not be invited to EL.
 

benhur

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
1,534
121
63
Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works (Romans 3:22-28).
So we believe Jesus, but do not have to follow in his footsteps and we are saved into his kingdom?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,331
113
Just do a litle test on your congregation. Ask if a person thinks they are saved, and then asses if they obey the Lord? You will find that 80% of the people that say they are saved will also admit that they do not obey the Lord in all things.

Salvation is not a one time thing. It is a process of ups and downs and sideways and straight. We do well, then we sin, but we repent and get back on the path, and we do good works and we love God and man and we do the things that God has created for us to do, and we endure to the end, at which time we are judged and at that time we are either saved unto life or damned unto death. It cannot be any other way. Jesus is going to give the gift of life to those who followed him and did what he said. He is not going to give the gift to an unworthy self centered person, no matter that they said they had a moment in their life when they were baptized of the Holy Spirit. It is a life-long pursuit for salvation.

But because we are sinners it takes Jesus to gift us into his heaven, but only after we have proven to follow him and do what he has commanded us to do. If as you say, he inputs faith and love and trust, then why do we continue to sin? If it is all imput into us, why sin? Why are we not perfect. We are saved, faith is inputed, love inputed, trust, and grace, then why are we not perfect in this life? The answer is that it is not inputed into us, we have to take action ourselves to follow and live as Jesus lived.
BTW

YOU are accusing 80% of the people in the church I go to of something that you have no idea about or proof of what you accuse them off.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,331
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All these things, baptism, forgiveness, are all based on the words of Jesus. That is what is meant by being "Jesus based".

Jesus said believe, so I believe.
Jesus was water baptized, so I was water baptized.
Jesus baptized by fire, so I was baptized of the spirit.
Jesus said forgive, so I forgive.
Jesus said...
Jesus said...

I could go on, but if you are "Jesus based", you do the things that Jesus did, and taught you to do. If you don't, you will not be invited to EL.
So as I have asked many times to you.

Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
You equate it to salvation.
I have asked you many times as to what it is and what it entails.
Never seen an answer.

Please answer my question.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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Dude, you said I did not explain what the verses meant, I just proved I did, and you want to blame me?

You post verses all the time, and you NEVER give what you think the verses mean, Which means we are left to listen to what you say, and interpret those verses by what you are declaring.

I posted a verse you used, Used the interpretation that by what you have been saying for years to prove what I said was right.

You can either continue to ignore (proving I was right) or show me I was wrong, by reposting the verse and telling us what YOU think the verse means.

An example.



You post this verse hundreds of times to show how we are saved (in that context) and you have it in your signature

Can you explain what this verse means when it comes to the gospel? (prove me wrong)

Does it mean we have to obey to be saved, Or does it mean those who love God (because he first love them) obey because they have been loved (saved) by God. and this passage has no relation to how one is saved.

Its simple to do.. You can prove me wring right here, Or you can continue to try to blame shift.
No I did ask you to explain the verses I posted that you said I misuse first.

Here, thise verse: John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

Means if we truly have love for Yah WE WILL do what He Commands. This odes not mean we will be 100% perfect, but it does mean we will live in His likeness, I want to add IMO hopefully continually increasing in His path.

Also you ask:
does it mean those who love God (because he first love them) obey because they have been loved (saved) by God.
If you look to the post you are replying to I POSTED THAT EXACT VERSE:

Here, I have to log off because I have some errands to do but possible we can find a starting middle ground here:

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Is it love if we guard the Commands of Yah?

Should we guard the Commands of Yah?
So how are you questioning that Im saying something different than that?

Fainlly we are saved by YHWH, those who in in Him and have His Spirit will not fight against His Commands but will love them and seek to do them:

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,860
9,579
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You state many works to be saved and add many caveats.

Not baptised before you die then not saved.

Die with one ounce of unforgiveness before you die then you are not forgiven (as you said to me)
But when I return the comment about unforgiveness you said "God will accept that and judge me according to my heart"

That's your religion.
It lacks compassion and love.
The very thing that Jesus told us to walk in.

Referring to the comment, "die with one ounce of unforgiveness before you die then you are not forgiven".

I have to say this: We are ALL going to die with unrepented sin. I truly believe that God will give us one last chance to repent before we stand before Him and get judged.. God DOES judge the content of our hearts and will do so accordingly.. He wouldn't be a fair and just God if he didn't give us one last opportunity to repent, even as we stand before Him. :)
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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Do you keep the law.....yes or no?
I already said twice today I have sinned sin worthy of death and am thankful for Yah's mercy.

Yet you refuse to answer my questions and still look for reason to accuse. You distract from Scripture and doctrine to make me the bad guy, then there is no need to address Scripture huh?

No your splitting hairs, sin is transgression of the Law, I even said I have committed sin worthy of death and am thinkful for Yah's mercy. You pick at any little thing you can to accuse.
...yes I have sinned and broken the Law, one sin unto death is worthy of death, thankfully, YHWH has provided Yahshua the Messiah and offered mankind, myself included, mercy, for this I am thankful and this makes me want to do His will even more. I know your game, when I admit I have sinned you yell "sinner! law breaker!" etc.
1 John 1:8-10, “If we say that we have no sin, we are misleading ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is trustworthy and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.”

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
All these things, baptism, forgiveness, are all based on the words of Jesus. That is what is meant by being "Jesus based".

Jesus said believe, so I believe.
Jesus was water baptized, so I was water baptized.
Jesus baptized by fire, so I was baptized of the spirit.
Jesus said forgive, so I forgive.
Jesus said...
Jesus said...

I could go on, but if you are "Jesus based", you do the things that Jesus did, and taught you to do. If you don't, you will not be invited to EL.
Thats saying we must do these works to be saved,

So why do you say you do not teach works, if you believe it, own it man,