OSAS= House Built on Sand

[Ralph-]

It says "hath not seen God". Not "has maybe seen God before and now lost him again" as you try to interpret it. No, it says such a person has never, ever seen God.

No offense, but what part of that do you not understand?

'Seeing' and 'knowing' God can also refer to spiritual maturity:

"1There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil."-Job 1:1

"5“I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You"-Job 42:5

Job was a blameless, upright God fearing man, but he had yet to 'see' God even though he had a righteous relationship with God.

As another example, the Galatians had received the Spirit and were known by God in salvation but they did not know him in a reciprocal maturity of 'knowing'.

"Having begun by the Spirit "-Galatians 3:3

"now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God "-Galatians 4:9


We see in the parable of the sower that it is only the mature believer, persevering in faith and fruitfulness in whom the word of God can not be uprooted. That's why I've been telling people that you grow up into a place of not being able to be lost. You have to hold fast to the word of the gospel by which you were saved to remain saved. That 'holding fast' with surety happens in the mature believer, not the weak or immature believer who has yet to mature to a 'seeing' and 'knowing' of the God who knows them.

 

[justpassinthrough]

(I know you don't like the word stumble)

?


I showed you what stumble means from the bible.


It's not "slip up".


It is willfully departing from Christ, in unbelief will under persecution.


No longer believing in Christ.



But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Luke says it this way -

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Departing from Christ, returning to unbelieving because of tribulation and persecution.



“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:9-13



Those who believe for a while then no longer believe, are no longer believers.





JPT

 

[Ralph-]

We see in the parable of the sower that it is only the mature believer, persevering in faith and fruitfulness in whom the word of God can not be uprooted. That's why I've been telling people that you grow up into a place of not being able to be lost. You have to hold fast to the word of the gospel by which you were saved to remain saved. That 'holding fast' with surety happens in the mature believer, not the weak or immature believer who has yet to mature to a 'seeing' and 'knowing' of the God who knows them.

And thus the problem we have in the church today: We have the church telling new believers worn out by works salvation religions like Catholicism that they are forever and irretrievably saved in our religion instead of growing them up into a mature relationship with Christ where they really are forever secure in Christ and not able to have the word of God uprooted from their hearts when trouble comes down the pike.

 

[justpassinthrough]

If is the key. If you do those things a person would never stumble.

That's right.


It's up to us to be dilligent to do these things.



JPT

 

[Ralph-]

Stumble means to depart from Christ in unbelief (no faith ) If we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we not beleive , yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself if he has begun the good work in us .

We are to put no confidence in our fleshly conscience. One day accusing the next excusing.

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Philippians 1:6

He will perform it.......as long as you don't deny him.

You can be faithless and sin because of fear, or weakness, or ignorance, or stupidity (meh!), and he will be right there for you. What you can not do is outright deny him in unbelief. He will deny you if you do that. Read what you wrote.

 

[dcontroversal]

It would be better to admit we don't know then, to live in deception

It would be better to admit the following...

MANY CALLED does not equal ALL CALLED
FEW chosen from the MANY Called equates to the MANY having the OPTION to BELIEVE

The bible is clear on predestination

a. God PREDETERMINED that ALL who come to him through Christ WILL BE RECEIVED
b. God PREDETERMINED that those who are CHOSEN (ELECTED) in CHRIST will be CONFORMED to the image of HIS SON
c. God PREDETERMINED that NO MAN will have an excuse on the day of judgment because DAY unto DAY, NIGHT unto NIGHT testifies unto man, including the INVISIBLE such as the POWER of GOD and the GOD HEAD
d. GOD also made the WICKED (THOSE who choose to reject) for the day of destruction.
e. Christ is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY those that BELIEVE "meaning it is open unto ALL"
f. GOD would have ALL MEN be saved and come to the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH
g. GOD has dealt to every man a measure of faith (the ability to believe) except JESUS who was dealt faith WITHOUT MEASURE
h. GOD knows WHO WILL believe and who WILL NOT believe yet MANY are called, but few CHOSEN (THOSE that BELIEVE)
i. THE grace of GOD that BRINGS salvation has shined down upon ALL MANKIND
j. FOR GOD so LOVED the KOSMOS (WHOLE ORDER of things) <--word is KOSMOS not ANTHROPOS
k. WHOSOEVER BELIEVES is WHOSOEVER BELIEVES

GOD is fair and just.....NO one will ever convince me based upon the above that GOD said "MAN A" will be saved and "MAN B" will burn in hell.....

MY view.....God, to be fair, made the way open for ALL men, they all have the ability to believe, creation testifies, Christ will save ALL who believe, those who believe are CHOSEN in Christ, those who refuse to BELIEVE are REJECTED. GOD knows who will and who will not believe, HE can, based upon that knowledge, CHOOSE to NOT CALL a man or CALL a man to salvation, hence the words MANY called and not ALL called<---this can also be applied unto ALL who die before they have any opportunity to cognitively believe such as aborted babies etc....

The following words are descriptive of a saved man or woman

SAINTS <---who we are IN CHRIST as HOLY
ELECT<-----who we are in Christ as CHOSEN

 

[Ralph-]

Yo, @Slayer , I'd like to know how this verse fits into your spiritual journey that you have shared in this thread:

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."-1 John 2:19

You (and @PennEd) have a great testimony of God's love and forgiveness and patience, so don't think I'm trying to shoot it down.

 

[dcontroversal]

You have a problem. You get very opinionated and post things in ignorance. I'm 73 and been elder and deacon in 3 different Reformed theology churches and sat in classes these churches conducted regularly about theological topics. They would discuss not only the Reformed theology but discuss the Arminian and other views as well.
.

So what.................the above means nothing in the grand scheme of things and does not mean you are correct....

 

[Slayer]

?


I showed you what stumble means from the bible.


It's not "slip up".


It is willfully departing from Christ, in unbelief will under persecution.


No longer believing in Christ.



But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


Luke says it this way -

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Departing from Christ, returning to unbelieving because of tribulation and persecution.



“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:9-13



Those who believe for a while then no longer believe, are no longer believers.





JPT

I was taught slightly differently, our pastor teaches us that there are only two types of human beings. Believers and unbelievers, after I was converted I remained faithful for around a year then I left the Church and went back to life as an unrestrained sinner.

I sunk deep into depravity and after I got my fill of sin, I repented and went back to Church. Then after some time I back slid again and repeated the cycle many times over and over.

God was always there to forgive me and receive me back into the flock, I believe God drew me back to Himself every time. There's no way I could have caused myself to repent and turn back to God, because sin is extremely powerful. No human power can overcome it, only God can.

So I agree with my pastor, there are only two types of people. Believers and unbelievers and God is the One who gives the gift of belief (faith) to those whom He choose before the foundation of the world.

 

[Slayer]

Yo, @Slayer , I'd like to know how this verse fits into your spiritual journey that you have shared in this thread:

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."-1 John 2:19

You (and @PennEd) have a great testimony of God's love and forgiveness and patience, so don't think I'm trying to shoot it down.

That's one of the most powerful verses which supports predestination, notice how it say's "that they were not of us". This suggests that the unbelievers were never of Gods elect in the first place, sure they may have displayed all the outward signs but they were exposed as hypocrites.

 

[PennEd]

Then I'm curious what your take is on this:

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."-1 John 2:19

Not sure what you are looking for. The verse is pretty self explanatory. There are those that profess to be Christian, but the fact that they didn't remain in faith of who Christ is and what Christ has done, reveals that they NEVER were Christian to begin with.

This differentiates between a Prodigal, who may have gotten caught up in worldly sins, and APPEARED to be lost, but the fact that he comes back proves that he was never lost, eternally speaking. It's vital to remember in the account that the son NEVER doubted who the Father was, he doubted whether or not HE WAS STILL A SON.

I don't believe that those who at one time confessed to be Christian, and now don't believe Jesus is God in the flesh, who was crucified, died and rose to life, ever were a regenerated, born again Christian.

 

[Slayer]

It would be better to admit the following...

MANY CALLED does not equal ALL CALLED
FEW chosen from the MANY Called equates to the MANY having the OPTION to BELIEVE

The bible is clear on predestination

a. God PREDETERMINED that ALL who come to him through Christ WILL BE RECEIVED
b. God PREDETERMINED that those who are CHOSEN (ELECTED) in CHRIST will be CONFORMED to the image of HIS SON
c. God PREDETERMINED that NO MAN will have an excuse on the day of judgment because DAY unto DAY, NIGHT unto NIGHT testifies unto man, including the INVISIBLE such as the POWER of GOD and the GOD HEAD
d. GOD also made the WICKED (THOSE who choose to reject) for the day of destruction.
e. Christ is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY those that BELIEVE "meaning it is open unto ALL"
f. GOD would have ALL MEN be saved and come to the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH
g. GOD has dealt to every man a measure of faith (the ability to believe) except JESUS who was dealt faith WITHOUT MEASURE
h. GOD knows WHO WILL believe and who WILL NOT believe yet MANY are called, but few CHOSEN (THOSE that BELIEVE)
i. THE grace of GOD that BRINGS salvation has shined down upon ALL MANKIND
j. FOR GOD so LOVED the KOSMOS (WHOLE ORDER of things) <--word is KOSMOS not ANTHROPOS
k. WHOSOEVER BELIEVES is WHOSOEVER BELIEVES

GOD is fair and just.....NO one will ever convince me based upon the above that GOD said "MAN A" will be saved and "MAN B" will burn in hell.....

MY view.....God, to be fair, made the way open for ALL men, they all have the ability to believe, creation testifies, Christ will save ALL who believe, those who believe are CHOSEN in Christ, those who refuse to BELIEVE are REJECTED. GOD knows who will and who will not believe, HE can, based upon that knowledge, CHOOSE to NOT CALL a man or CALL a man to salvation, hence the words MANY called and not ALL called<---this can also be applied unto ALL who die before they have any opportunity to cognitively believe such as aborted babies etc....

The following words are descriptive of a saved man or woman

SAINTS <---who we are IN CHRIST as HOLY
ELECT<-----who we are in Christ as CHOSEN

It still forces me into the corner where I must choose between the two views. 1. Man is saved by having faith in his faith 2. Man is saved by God choosing to save him.

They are the only two options, I don't like the idea that a totally depraved sinner would choose to give up his beloved sinful life and embrace suffering and persecution and even death for the sake of someone he doesn't even trust.

The Bible tells us that fallen sinners will never choose Christ, because it's foolishness to them. Why would a carnal man who loves his fornication and money and drugs, give up all of that to follow and suffer for some Jew who died on a cross 2000 years ago.

God must draw the person or he is as good as dead.

 

[dcontroversal]

It still forces me into the corner where I must choose between the two views. 1. Man is saved by having faith in his faith 2. Man is saved by God choosing to save him.

They are the only two options, I don't like the idea that a totally depraved sinner would choose to give up his beloved sinful life and embrace suffering and persecution and even death for the sake of someone he doesn't even trust.

The Bible tells us that fallen sinners will never choose Christ, because it's foolishness to them. Why would a carnal man who loves his fornication and money and drugs, give up all of that to follow and suffer for some Jew who died on a cross 2000 years ago.

God must draw the person or he is as good as dead.

I have never disagreed with that....I have always asserted that faith is of or from God, that no man come unto Jesus unless drawn from the Father, my contention is the belief that GOD said "MAN A" will be saved and "MAN B" will burn.....I assert that God in his fairness made it open unto ALL, but has the unique ability to CALL based upon his knowledge of who will and who will not believe....regardless of this we cannot sweep under the table the words many, few and all.....

MANY "NOT ALL" called, but FEW are chosen....that is my stance........

 

[Ralph-]

"19They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."-1 John 2:19

That's one of the most powerful verses which supports predestination, notice how it say's "that they were not of us". This suggests that the unbelievers were never of Gods elect in the first place, sure they may have displayed all the outward signs but they were exposed as hypocrites.

...after I was converted I remained faithful for around a year then I left the Church and went back to life as an unrestrained sinner.

I sunk deep into depravity and after I got my fill of sin, I repented and went back to Church. Then after some time I back slid again and repeated the cycle many times over and over.

The point I'm making is you can't use 1 John 2:19 to prove real believers never leave and are 'once saved always saved', and then turn right around and use your testimony of leaving the Lord and coming back to prove 'once saved always saved'. I see this duplicity over and over and over again in the 'once saved always saved' camp.

 

[PennEd]

I did not say you were a Calvinist. I said God is not a Calvinist. I would like to ask do you believe that only those whom God has appointed are going to accept the gospel?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes. How could it be otherwise?

Acts 13:48 New King James Version (NKJV)
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as HAD BEEN APPOINTED to eternal life believed.

We all agree I think that God knows the end from the beginning. He knows all the decisions we will make before we make them. We cannot surprise God.

I think we all also agree that God knit us in our mother's womb.

So God is knitting the person He KNOWS is going to reject Him. Does He continue knitting that person? If He does, and knows that person is going to reject Him, is He not knitting someone PREDESTINED to be lost? And isn't the reverse also true?
Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand

We HATE that idea. I get that. That is our HUMAN logic and intellect and reasoning trying to fully understand the Creator of everything. How could God create a person He KNOWS is going to reject him!? I can get upset with that thought and those that think that, or I can go out and love everyone, preach His Gospel, and KNOW that HE is in control even when I can't or don't fully understand His Ways and Purposes.

 

[Ralph-]

Not sure what you are looking for. The verse is pretty self explanatory. There are those that profess to be Christian, but the fact that they didn't remain in faith of who Christ is and what Christ has done, reveals that they NEVER were Christian to begin with.

This differentiates between a Prodigal, who may have gotten caught up in worldly sins, and APPEARED to be lost, but the fact that he comes back proves that he was never lost, eternally speaking. It's vital to remember in the account that the son NEVER doubted who the Father was, he doubted whether or not HE WAS STILL A SON.

I don't believe that those who at one time confessed to be Christian, and now don't believe Jesus is God in the flesh, who was crucified, died and rose to life, ever were a regenerated, born again Christian.

You're saying you never left the Lord in unbelief. Which is what I thought you'd say if I asked. So your testimony doesn't prove 'once saved always saved' in regard to leaving the faith altogether (as Freegrace doctrine contends).

The point I want to make in your's and @Slayer's testimonies (assuming he/she also did not leave in unbelief) is you have to come back to be saved. We see in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that the immoral fellow had to be turned over to the destruction of the desires of the flesh in order to be saved in the day of Christ. The short of it being, if you and slayer had resisted and not come back you would not be saved. Paul explains to them in the next chapter that the habitual offender will not inherit the kingdom.

 

[preston39]

That's one of the most powerful verses which supports predestination, notice how it say's "that they were not of us". This suggests that the unbelievers were never of Gods elect in the first place, sure they may have displayed all the outward signs but they were exposed as hypocrites.

S...,,

I find nothing in scriptures which supports predestination. If it were then;

...free will would not be needed;
.....repentance would not be needed;
....baptism would not be needed;
...unlimited forgiveness would not be needed;
....no need for Christ to be sacrificed on the cross because there would be no need for forgiveness, etc.

Why won't/can't some folks allow scripture to interpret scripture?
That is a very important rule of Bible study.

 

[Ralph-]

We all agree I think that God knows the end from the beginning. He knows all the decisions we will make before we make them. We cannot surprise God.

I think we all also agree that God knit us in our mother's womb.

So God is knitting the person He KNOWS is going to reject Him. Does He continue knitting that person? If He does, and knows that person is going to reject Him, is He not knitting someone PREDESTINED to be lost? And isn't the reverse also true?
Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand

Now contrast that with the idea that God purposely designed that person to be an unbeliever. That contention pretty much ruins the entire Christian faith for me.

 

[MichaelOwen]

Now contrast that with the idea that God purposely designed that person to be an unbeliever. That contention pretty much ruins the entire Christian faith for me.

In my opinion, I don't believe that God created any one of us from beginning to end without the acknowledgment of his existence in our mind, and in our hearts. It's a matter of whether we accept him or deny him, and that also applies to Jesus, because we know nobody can come to the father but by Him.

 

[Slayer]

I have never disagreed with that....I have always asserted that faith is of or from God, that no man come unto Jesus unless drawn from the Father, my contention is the belief that GOD said "MAN A" will be saved and "MAN B" will burn.....I assert that God in his fairness made it open unto ALL, but has the unique ability to CALL based upon his knowledge of who will and who will not believe....regardless of this we cannot sweep under the table the words many, few and all.....

MANY "NOT ALL" called, but FEW are chosen....that is my stance........

God did not create "MAN B" to burn, God created him in His own image but the only thing with MAN B is God doesn't draw him to Himself as He does with MAN A.

So if God doesn't draw a man to Himself, that man will choose to fulfill the lusts of his heart and thus separate himself from God. Every person will automatically gravitate to sin like a duck to water, and unless God draws him away from his sin he will end up separated eternally because God can't allow a single sin to pollute heaven.

So it's not God who caused him to end up in hell, his own sinful actions separate him and ultimately land him in hell. We can't blame God for the actions of a sinner.

The better question should be, why does God save any of us. Why doesn't He just send everyone to hell, after all we deserve it. The fact that He chose to save anyone is a miracle and it shows amazing love, to die for filthy stinking sinners is amazing grace.