Does God love all mankind and does He wish to save everyone

[Slayer]

I have shown you from Rom 1 that men reject God as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness and that it is God's desire that all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth as shown in 1 Tim 2:4.

Your response to that was to indicate that the "all" in 1 Tim 2:4 refers to believers only. You provided absolutely no Scripture to corroborate your claim.

In effect you add words to 1 Tim 2:4. God could easily have stated that it is His desire that all who believe be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But God didn't add those words and it is incumbent on you to not add to Scripture as you prop up a doctrine never intended by God.

In 1 Tim 2:4, the word "all" is the Greek word pantas (plural) and it refers to all things constituting the whole … "ALL MEN". There is no further qualifying description as you claim/infer. Just "all men" with no distinction as to whether they are believers or unbelievers.

When you add words to Scripture in order to prop up a doctrine not intended by God, you change the Word of God, and end up with an erroneous interpretation of Scripture.

When we understand that God's desire is that "ALL" men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4) and then further understand that God allows mankind to reject Him as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18), we see that there is no conflict between the two verses.

The sacrifice of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is sufficient to cover all the sins of all mankind. The fact that some men end up in the lake of fire is due to their suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and thereby rejecting God's all sufficient grace.

I reject all of that as false doctrine, you have perverted the scriptures to make them comply with your false view. I gave you a hundred scriptures and you gave me four or five, I win because my view is supported 15 times more than yours.

Since you refuse to allow me to explain the meaning of scripture and force me to read it the way you see it, I win at you own game because we are not allowed to interpret scripture. In that case my view Trumps your 15 times over, winners are grinners thank you

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I reject all of that as false doctrine, you have perverted the scriptures to make them comply with your false view.

I note you did not provide any concise rebuttal which states why you believe what is shown in Post #360 is "false doctrine" and how the Scriptures have been "perverted".

Please provide reasoned rebuttal with Scriptural support which presents your understanding as to why Post #360 contains "false doctrine".

I gave you a hundred scriptures and you gave me four or five, I win because my view is supported 15 times more than yours.

You did not provide any Scriptures in your Post #361.

Of the Scripture which you claim to have posted, please point out which verse or verses specifically refute the central point in Post #360. Thank you.

Since you refuse to allow me to explain the meaning of scripture

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I "refuse to allow [you] to explain the meaning of scripture". Thank you.

and force me to read it the way you see it,

I stated my belief concerning the issue at hand.

Please state your belief and reasoning and provide Scripture which supports your interpretation. Thank you.

I win at you own game because we are not allowed to interpret scripture.

I believe God encourages us to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15) and we are to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear (1 Pet 3:15).

Please provide Scripture which indicates "we are not allowed to interpret scripture". Thank you.

 

[Slayer]

I note you did not provide any concise rebuttal which states why you believe what is shown in Post #360 is "false doctrine" and how the Scriptures have been "perverted".

Please provide reasoned rebuttal with Scriptural support which presents your understanding as to why Post #360 contains "false doctrine".





You did not provide any Scriptures in your Post #361.

Of the Scripture which you claim to have posted, please point out which verse or verses specifically refute the central point in Post #360. Thank you.





Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I "refuse to allow [you] to explain the meaning of scripture". Thank you.





I stated my belief concerning the issue at hand.

Please state your belief and reasoning and provide Scripture which supports your interpretation. Thank you.





I believe God encourages us to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15) and we are to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear (1 Pet 3:15).

Please provide Scripture which indicates "we are not allowed to interpret scripture". Thank you.

I don't believe that individuals should privately interpret scripture. God has appointed shepherds to lead and teach us dumb sheep, so we should never appoint ourselves as Bible Theologians or Leaders. We are followers, we must follow our teachers or we will get lost and the hungry Lion is roaming around looking for lost sheep to devour.

We have too many sheep running around claiming to have broken the code of scripture, God only gave that ability to the shepherds. Yes us sheep are instructed to search the scriptures to see if the things we are taught are in the Bible, so if your teacher preaches something that's not in the Bible, then you need to find a Church where the Bible is being preached faithfully.

I gave you a 100 verses before, dealing with this issue of election vs free choice. The Bible is heavily in favor of election and those verses which seem to say otherwise, means that your interpretation is lacking and not the doctrine of predestination and election.

There are many great debates by experts on this subject at sermonaudio.com you can listen to both sides of the argument. there are far more learned people than us debating this issue, they have been debating for the past 500 years and they will continue long after we are gone.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes us sheep are instructed to search the scriptures to see if the things we are taught are in the Bible

Please provide Scripture which supports your claim that what was submitted in Post #360 is "false doctrine" and the Scriptures have been "perverted". Thank you.

I gave you a 100 verses before, dealing with this issue

Of the Scripture which you claim to have posted, please point out which verse or verses specifically refute the central point in Post #360. Thank you.

that your interpretation is lacking and not the doctrine of predestination and election.

Please explain how my "interpretation is lacking". And please use words other than "my pastor says" and "I gave you a 100 verse before". Thank you.

There are many great debates by experts on this subject at sermonaudio.com you can listen to both sides of the argument. there are far more learned people than us debating this issue, they have been debating for the past 500 years and they will continue long after we are gone.

Since, as you claim, these issues have been debated "for the past 500 years" and "far more learned people than us" are "debating this issue" and they "will continue long after we are gone" please explain why it is that the choice you have made is more valid than any other choice. Thank you.

 

[Slayer]

Please provide Scripture which supports your claim that what was submitted in Post #360 is "false doctrine" and the Scriptures have been "perverted". Thank you.





Of the Scripture which you claim to have posted, please point out which verse or verses specifically refute the central point in Post #360. Thank you.





Please explain how my "interpretation is lacking". And please use words other than "my pastor says" and "I gave you a 100 verse before". Thank you.





Since, as you claim, these issues have been debated "for the past 500 years" and "far more learned people than us" are "debating this issue" and they "will continue long after we are gone" please explain why it is that the choice you have made is more valid than any other choice. Thank you.

Sorry I can't be bothered going back over all the previous posts searching for particular comments and providing scriptures for every comment, it's too time consuming. I will say this, I have studied the Gospel intensely for the past three and a half years and I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that my current view is the true Biblical view about how a person is saved.

I'm 100% sure that you have been deceived by the god of this world, that a person chooses to believe by their own volition. The Bible tells us that it has ZERO!!!! to do with the person and that a God causes the person to believe, and the person would never come to believe unless God causes him to. So the conclusion is ELECTION!!!!. it has nothing to do with the individual making his own choice to believe.

You can say what ever you like about it, I've heard all the accusations like God created us like robots and forces salvation on some and forces damnation on others. I'm OK with what ever you think as long as you admit that God is the One who makes the choice about who will be saved and who will be left in their sin.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Eph1:5 -

"having predestined us unto 'divine adoption of sons' by means of Jesus Christ unto Himself..."


['divine placement OF sons' ( huiothesian ) is not the same as what we normally think of when saying (like we say) "I adopted him AS my son/to be my son" (as in, a child outside the family I brought in to be a son in this family--not that idea, here)]

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sorry I can't be bothered going back over all the previous posts searching for particular comments and providing scriptures for every comment, it's too time consuming.

Then your claim is wholly unsubstantiated and what is submitted in Post #360 stands.

I will say this, I have studied the Gospel intensely for the past three and a half years and I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that my current view is the true Biblical view about how a person is saved.

When you get to forty three and a half years, come and talk to me about what you are "convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt" concerning your "current view".

The Bible tells us that it has ZERO!!!! to do with the person and that a God causes the person to believe, and the person would never come to believe unless God causes him to.

God gives every man, woman, and child what is needed in order to not reject Him.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and reject in spite of God having given to him or her what is needed will have no excuse when they find themselves cast into the lake of fire.

I'm OK with what ever you think as long as you admit that God is the One who makes the choice about who will be saved and who will be left in their sin.

How about you just admit that God allows mankind to reject Him as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness?

Under your scenario, God gives to the believer and withholds from the unbeliever. This means that the unbeliever has an excuse come judgment day because God withheld something from him/her that would have allowed him/her to believe. God's Word tells us they are without excuse so quit giving them the excuse. It is clear that they suppress of their own volition when they restrain the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). God does not withhold from them. He reveals His eternal power and Godhead through the natural, physical creation (Rom 1:20).

Unbelievers see the evidence of the Creator and suppress this truth in unrighteousness.

Believers see the evidence of the eternal power and Godhead of the Creator and seek to know more about this "Creator":

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near

 

[Slayer]

Then your claim is wholly unsubstantiated and what is submitted in Post #360 stands.





When you get to forty three and a half years, come and talk to me about what you are "convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt" concerning your "current view".





God gives every man, woman, and child what is needed in order to not reject Him.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness and reject in spite of God having given to him or her what is needed will have no excuse when they find themselves cast into the lake of fire.





How about you just admit that God allows mankind to reject Him as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness?

Under your scenario, God gives to the believer and withholds from the unbeliever. This means that the unbeliever has an excuse come judgment day because God withheld something from him/her that would have allowed him/her to believe. God's Word tells us they are without excuse so quit giving them the excuse. It is clear that they suppress of their own volition when they restrain the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). God does not withhold from them. He reveals His eternal power and Godhead through the natural, physical creation (Rom 1:20).

Unbelievers see the evidence of the Creator and suppress this truth in unrighteousness.

Believers see the evidence of the eternal power and Godhead of the Creator and seek to know more about this "Creator":

Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near

The Bible teaches otherwise so it's against your view.

You still need to debunk all of the verses below, before you can propagate your private interpretation.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
– Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
– Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
– Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
– Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
– Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
– Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
– Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
– Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
– Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
– Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
– Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
– 1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
– Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
– 1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
– 2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
– Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
– 1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
– Rev 13:8
Aren’t some of these so obvious??
Some that believe in free will may try to avoid proper hermanuetics when it comes to these verses to support what they believe, or they flat out just reject these verses. But it’s clear. And if all glory is to God and not to ourselves and if we were dead in sin before we were saved, how could we raise ourselves from the dead? To deny predestination you’d have to reject God Omniscience and that He even had a plan when He created the heavens and the earth. Thank God He has predestined us, because it is in our nature to reject God and if He didn’t seal us, we would fall away in a heart beat.
Be thankful for God, His Omniscience, and Grace to save you.

 

[fredoheaven]

The Bible teaches otherwise so it's against your view.

You still need to debunk all of the verses below, before you can propagate your private interpretation.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
– Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
– Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
– Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
– Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
– Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
– Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
– Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
– Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
– Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
– Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
– Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
– 1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
– Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
– 1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
– 2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
– Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
– 1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
– Rev 13:8
Aren’t some of these so obvious??
Some that believe in free will may try to avoid proper hermanuetics when it comes to these verses to support what they believe, or they flat out just reject these verses. But it’s clear. And if all glory is to God and not to ourselves and if we were dead in sin before we were saved, how could we raise ourselves from the dead? To deny predestination you’d have to reject God Omniscience and that He even had a plan when He created the heavens and the earth. Thank God He has predestined us, because it is in our nature to reject God and if He didn’t seal us, we would fall away in a heart beat.
Be thankful for God, His Omniscience, and Grace to save you.

I would think of you more by explaining and not by complaining. What about expounding more of those relevant few verses on the issue at hand or else be also held liable of a private interpretation. What I know of private interpretation is private translation. So the charge may not be suitable in this respect.

 

[Slayer]

I would think of you more by explaining and not by complaining. What about expounding more of those relevant few verses on the issue at hand or else be also held liable of a private interpretation. What I know of private interpretation is private translation. So the charge may not be suitable in this respect.

I have explained our view on the few verses which seem to support the "free choice movement" many times. The "whosoever" are the elect of God, the "all" refers to all of the elect, "the world" means the whole elect world.

All of those passages were spoken and directed towards Gods people. Just read your Bible and you will see that they were all spoken to the Church or Disciples, it wasn't a general call to all people.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The Bible teaches otherwise so it's against your view.

You still need to debunk all of the verses below, before you can propagate your private interpretation.

How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.
– Ps 65:4
The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
– Prov 16:4
And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
– Mt 24:31
now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
– Luke 18:7
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’
Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.
– Acts 15:17-18
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
– Romans 8:28- 30
Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
– Rom 8:33
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
– Romans 9:11
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
– Romans 9:15-16 (the whole chapter)
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
– Rom 11:2
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
– Romans 11:5-7
but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
– 1 Cor 2:7
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
– Ephesians 1:5,11
knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;
– 1 Thes 1:4
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
– 2 Thes 2:13
Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
– Titus 1:1
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
– 1 Peter 1:2
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
– Rev 13:8

Throwing up 15 to 20 verses in the hopes that they address the issue without explaining how they relate to the issue does nothing to support your assertion that what I have claimed is "false doctrine" or that the Scriptures have been "perverted".

Some that believe in free will may try to avoid proper hermanuetics when it comes to these verses to support what they believe, or they flat out just reject these verses.

I have stated over and over in this thread (and many others) that I believe God allows mankind to reject Him. You cannot deny that some reject God. I have shown you how those who reject God reject ... they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). God allows this to occur and those who reject will be dealt with as, how, and when God determines.

God tells us that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Rom 2:4). The goodness of God is on display for all mankind to see and hear and smell and taste and touch. God's love is all encompassing and it is revealed throughout all of His creation. Some reject God and turn from His goodness and they remain unrepentant.

It is your claim that those who remain unrepentant remain so because God did not give them what is needed to repent.

It is my claim that God does give what is needed in order to repent and those who do not repent remain unrepentant because they reject God's goodness as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they are without excuse because God's eternal power and Godhead is fully on display throughout His creation.

But it’s clear. And if all glory is to God and not to ourselves and if we were dead in sin before we were saved, how could we raise ourselves from the dead?

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I claimed that "we raise ourselves from the dead". Thank you.

To deny predestination you’d have to reject God Omniscience and that He even had a plan when He created the heavens and the earth. Thank God He has predestined us, because it is in our nature to reject God and if He didn’t seal us, we would fall away in a heart beat.

God seals us after we are born again ... not before (Ephesians 1:13 In whom [Christ Jesus] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise). After we hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, we trusted in Christ Jesus and believed in Him ... then we were sealed. We were not sealed before we believed.

 

[fredoheaven]

I have explained our view on the few verses which seem to support the "free choice movement" many times. The "whosoever" are the elect of God, the "all" refers to all of the elect, "the world" means the whole elect world.

All of those passages were spoken and directed towards Gods people. Just read your Bible and you will see that they were all spoken to the Church or Disciples, it wasn't a general call to all people.

Not a surprise, you are not yet hone to discuss with a point and counterpoint on this matter. You cannot just simply say something subjective. “Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good” but as Paul did reasoned out of the scriptures and not just by putting many verses without understanding. I do understand your own dilemma but frankly you have never won the case.

Thanks anyway...

 

[Slayer]

Throwing up 15 to 20 verses in the hopes that they address the issue without explaining how they relate to the issue does nothing to support your assertion that what I have claimed is "false doctrine" or that the Scriptures have been "perverted".





I have stated over and over in this thread (and many others) that I believe God allows mankind to reject Him. You cannot deny that some reject God. I have shown you how those who reject God reject ... they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). God allows this to occur and those who reject will be dealt with as, how, and when God determines.

God tells us that it is the goodness of God which leads to repentance (Rom 2:4). The goodness of God is on display for all mankind to see and hear and smell and taste and touch. God's love is all encompassing and it is revealed throughout all of His creation. Some reject God and turn from His goodness and they remain unrepentant.

It is your claim that those who remain unrepentant remain so because God did not give them what is needed to repent.

It is my claim that God does give what is needed in order to repent and those who do not repent remain unrepentant because they reject God's goodness as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. When they suppress the truth in unrighteousness, they are without excuse because God's eternal power and Godhead is fully on display throughout His creation.





Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I claimed that "we raise ourselves from the dead". Thank you.





God seals us after we are born again ... not before (Ephesians 1:13 In whom [Christ Jesus] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise). After we hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, we trusted in Christ Jesus and believed in Him ... then we were sealed. We were not sealed before we believed.

But the Bible tells us that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Yes we are born sinners but we are destined to become believers after we hear the Gospel. We believe when we hear it while those not chosen will not believe when they hear it.

You didn't say you raise yourself from the dead in those words, but what you said was to that effect whereby you will be quickened to life by choosing to believe. The Bible tells us that we were all born dead in our trespasses and sins, so dead people cannot come to life and believe.

I can't believe I have to waste time educating you on the very basics of the Bible. Little children at my Church know more than you, shame shame!!!! Of' course we are not born literally physically dead, we are born spiritually dead. We are born carnal and carnal people cannot receive spiritual things because spiritual things are foolishness to the carnal man.

You need to toss out everything you have learned and start again, because everything you have been taught is false. It's the doctrine of Demons!!! The Bible is clear, God chose His elect before the foundation of the world!!!

 

[Slayer]

Not a surprise, you are not yet hone to discuss with a point and counterpoint on this matter. You cannot just simply say something subjective. “Prove all things; hold fast to that which is good” but as Paul did reasoned out of the scriptures and not just by putting many verses without understanding. I do understand your own dilemma but frankly you have never won the case.

Thanks anyway...

According to you we haven't won the case, but thank goodness you are???? I don't know who you are but I do know you are not the arbitrator and you are not the one who decides what is true and what is false.

Your view is worth 1 point, there are over 7 billion people in the world. They all have the same authority as you and they are worth 1 point each. So 1 view out of 7 billion will not convince anyone.

Let God be true and every man a liar, I believe you are a man and my Bible tells me men are liars

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You didn't say you raise yourself from the dead in those words, but what you said was to that effect whereby you will be quickened to life by choosing to believe.

Look at what you said in the prior paragraph in the very same post (bold/underline mine):

Yes we are born sinners but we are destined to become believers after we hear the Gospel. We believe when we hear it

You claim that I am saying the believer "chooses to believe". Then in the next breath you say "we believe when we hear it". How is that not "choosing to believe"???

And for the record, I have stated over and over and over that the unbeliever suppresses the truth in unrighteousness when he/she hears it (Rom 1:18).

The believer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when he/she hears it.

I can't believe I have to waste time educating you on the very basics of the Bible.

You are not "educating [me] on the very basics of the Bible".

I am "educating you on the very basics of the Bible".

You are trying to educate me concerning calvinism and I'm not going to get carried about by your wind of doctrine.

Little children at my Church know more than you

Statements such as this are unsupportable and are made solely to incite. Please refrain from personal attacks when you submit your posts. Thank you.

We are born carnal and carnal people cannot receive spiritual things because spiritual things are foolishness to the carnal man.

Since faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17), and the believer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when he/she hears the Word of God, God brings increase to the believer and faith within the believer is strengthened.

You need to toss out everything you have learned and start again, because everything you have been taught is false. It's the doctrine of Demons!!!

Again, stop with the personal, subjective attacks which are posted solely to incite. It doesn't work on me and all it does is show your inability to deal with the issue at hand in a spiritually mature manner.

 

[Slayer]

Look at what you said in the prior paragraph in the very same post (bold/underline mine):




You claim that I am saying the believer "chooses to believe". Then in the next breath you say "we believe when we hear it". How is that not "choosing to believe"???

And for the record, I have stated over and over and over that the unbeliever suppresses the truth in unrighteousness when he/she hears it (Rom 1:18).

The believer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when he/she hears it.





You are not "educating [me] on the very basics of the Bible".

I am "educating you on the very basics of the Bible".

You are trying to educate me concerning calvinism and I'm not going to get carried about by your wind of doctrine.





Statements such as this are unsupportable and are made solely to incite. Please refrain from personal attacks when you submit your posts. Thank you.





Since faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17), and the believer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness when he/she hears the Word of God, God brings increase to the believer and faith within the believer is strengthened.





Again, stop with the personal, subjective attacks which are posted solely to incite. It doesn't work on me and all it does is show your inability to deal with the issue at hand in a spiritually mature manner.

The issue at hand is, you claim that a person is saved by having faith in his faith and I'm saying that God saves us.

You need to deal with all of the scriptures which say that were were chosen before the foundation of the world. if you allowed the bible to interpret itself, you would arrive at the same belief as we have.

The Bible is clear, salvation is of the lord and not of free choice. I used to believe the same thing you do for many years and I defended my position vigorously but I came to believe the truth after diligently searching the scriptures.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The issue at hand is, you claim that a person is saved by having faith in his faith

I never stated that "a person is saved by having faith in his faith".

God's Word is clear: Faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God (Rom 10:17).

God's Word is clear: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Slayer]

I never stated that "a person is saved by having faith in his faith".

God's Word is clear: Faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God (Rom 10:17).

God's Word is clear: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).

Yes, but you Arminians always leave something for yourselves to boast about. You claim that you are so special that you were born with faith while the poor unbelievers weren't born that special, so you can boast how your faith saved you.

We believe that salvation is a gift from God, you only believe that grace is the gift but we believe the whole work of salvation is of God from start to finish and the only thing we contribute is a totally depraved sinful soul, which was born dead in sin.

How can a carnal man, who loves his sin decide to stop living his life of sin and lose it and suffer persecution for a Jew named Jesus who died 2000 years ago on a cross. The Gospel is foolishness to those who were not elected for salvation, before the foundation of the world.

 

[fredoheaven]

According to you we haven't won the case, but thank goodness you are???? I don't know who you are but I do know you are not the arbitrator and you are not the one who decides what is true and what is false.

Your view is worth 1 point, there are over 7 billion people in the world. They all have the same authority as you and they are worth 1 point each. So 1 view out of 7 billion will not convince anyone.

Let God be true and every man a liar, I believe you are a man and my Bible tells me men are liars

Hi Slayer,
Alright, I am not the arbitrator here for your information but you entered in here a not one for one debate either, this I think is a BDF where we can discussed scriptures happily ever after. Yep, there are over 7 billion people in the world and your point view is 1 out of it. That would make this Stalemate!

Of course the Bible tells as in Romans 3:4 “ God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.” If this means me, it also means you. Another Stalemate!

Yet every man (generic either male or female) is a liar. Your guess is that I a man is true but the fact is when the Bible says “every man” may mean every male or female. Matthew 4:4 asserted this as saying “But he answered and said, It is written, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” This is no longer a stalemate, I won!

Ho, ho, claiming you/I won is a funny word I guess.

Moving forward…

 

[fredoheaven]

But the Bible tells us that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Yes we are born sinners but we are destined to become believers after we hear the Gospel. We believe when we hear it while those not chosen will not believe when they hear it.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Let me interject if you may but you can by choice opt not to response...

Hmm, haven’t you considered being IN him. We are IN him before we are chosen for how one be chosen if one is not IN Him. To me this “choosing” is not FOR salvation, one has to be already IN him before we are chosen. If this is in reference to be destined to become believers before the foundation of the world it is apparent that YOU are not yet there before the foundation of the world!
Now what God has pre-ordained is his intention to saved mankind, it is what the “means” which is being predestined by God and what the MEANS God used “by Jesus Christ, by Christ blood” “at the cross” which is the redeeming act of God.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ (MEANS) to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, (MEANS) the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Moreover, in whom (Jesus Christ), we= saved believers already being predestined to obtain inheritance.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom (MEANS)also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

And how to be in HIM?

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

• Hear the word of truth ie the gospel.
• Trust/ believed the gospel truth