We are justified by Jesus's faithfulness to go to the cross (Gal 2:16), because of his "finished" work on the cross. We have been justified before we believe. We are regenerated before we believe. We are given the Holy Spirit when we are regenerated. The Holy Spirit begins to reveal some truths, as new born babe's in Christ, a little here and a little there, line upon line, precept upon precept. We begin to believe as the Holy Spirit reveals how we were justified by Christ. That is the way I believe it. I welcome your feedback. Our faith does justify us, by our knowledge of the truth, as the Spirit reveals and our faith increases. Our faith should continue to grow, as we study, to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of God.
Who are the inspired scriptures directed to?
- Thread starter ForestGreenCook
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I see calvinism is in full swing over in this thread.
The facts are that God wants all to be saved, God's grace has appeared unto all men TEACHING to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, Jesus tasted death for every man, the world, all, and we should pray for all people, God commands all to repent, the true light gives light to every man that comes into the world.
And contrary to what ForestgreenCook just stated, we are not given the Holy Spirit PRIOR to belief. This is in contradiction to Ephesians 1:13.
Nobody in the NT got the Spirit before they believed, like in Pentecost or with the Ephesians or with Cornelius.
1 Corinthians 2 is talking about the deep things of God, as is clear from the earlier verses. Not about understanding the simple message of the Gospel. Here is how people gain faith: Faith cometh by HEARING and hearing by the word of God. You hear the Gospel, you believe the Gospel, you are saved, simple.
You cant just pick up a bible and come out a calvinist as I said before on this forum, it cant happen. Limited atonement especially is so contrary to the NT that you have to read it into the text, force it upon it. And even that isnt enough, you have to make philosophical arguments about "Well does God really save or make saveable" and other falsehoods, when the truth is God does both.
EDIT: I noticed you also said we are justified BEFORE we believe? That is also contrary to scripture:
Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
This is repeated many times ALL OVER the NT.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
The facts are that God wants all to be saved, God's grace has appeared unto all men TEACHING to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, Jesus tasted death for every man, the world, all, and we should pray for all people, God commands all to repent, the true light gives light to every man that comes into the world.
And contrary to what ForestgreenCook just stated, we are not given the Holy Spirit PRIOR to belief. This is in contradiction to Ephesians 1:13.
Nobody in the NT got the Spirit before they believed, like in Pentecost or with the Ephesians or with Cornelius.
1 Corinthians 2 is talking about the deep things of God, as is clear from the earlier verses. Not about understanding the simple message of the Gospel. Here is how people gain faith: Faith cometh by HEARING and hearing by the word of God. You hear the Gospel, you believe the Gospel, you are saved, simple.
You cant just pick up a bible and come out a calvinist as I said before on this forum, it cant happen. Limited atonement especially is so contrary to the NT that you have to read it into the text, force it upon it. And even that isnt enough, you have to make philosophical arguments about "Well does God really save or make saveable" and other falsehoods, when the truth is God does both.
EDIT: I noticed you also said we are justified BEFORE we believe? That is also contrary to scripture:
Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
This is repeated many times ALL OVER the NT.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
In reference to Eph 1:13 - If you will notice in verse 1, Paul is talking to "the saints which are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus" who have all been regenerated and given the Holy Spirit. If you will reflect back to the description of the natural man as recorded in 1 Cor 2:14, you will see that he did not have the ability to hear, believe, and trust the word of truth, the gospel of his salvation, because they would have been foolishness unto him. Babe's in Christ can not discern the "deep things of God" and the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 is not a babe in Christ. When the natural man is regenerated in Eph 2:5, he is yet "dead (strong's definition = a corps, literally or figuratively ) in sins", a corps cannot respond. In reference to Gal 3:24 - Justified means, "cleared of all guilt". This verse is not referring to man's faith, but to Christ's faithfulness to go to the cross. Verse 25 - But after faith (Jesus) is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. If you will consider Gal 2:16, you will see that we are justified "by the faith OF Jesus Christ" unless you are using some other version of the bible other that the KJV, which have changed the word OF to IN, to make it man's faith instead of Christ's faith. After we have been regenerated and revealed, by the Holy Spirit within us, then we are justified by our faith, in knowing that Jesus is the one who justified us. The scriptures do teach a limited atonement. John 6:39 - Christ died for all that the Father gave him and said that he would not lose even one of them, but raise them up at the last day. If you are advocating universal atonement, then all humanity will be in heaven. All scriptures must harmonize, or you do not understand Jesus's doctrine.
Your personal interpretation of "all the ends of the earth". He was talking about Israel of which God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel and Jacob is representative of the elect, in the fact that the seed of the elect would be through Jacob. Mark 13:27 has the same indications. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect "from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The apostle Paul said in Col 1:23 the gospel WAS preached to every creature which is under heaven. That commission has been accomplished.
The gospel is "the good news". The good news that the apostles was to preach to his elect is to preach Christ and him crucified. Telling them that they were chosen by God before the world was, to be adopted as his children and that their lives were secured, because he had his Son to pay the adoption price by his death on the cross to wash away all of their sins and that Christ is to come back to take them home, which is the final phase of the adoption. Is not that "THE GOOD NEWS" of the gospel? God also instructed the apostles to teach his elect children his instructions to them on how he wants them to live their lives while here on earth. The inspired scriptures are written to his children, not to the non-elect, telling them how they are saved, not how to get saved. The one main thing that causes most of God's children not be able to harmonize the scriptures is because they do not properly divide the salvation scriptures. Salvation, save, saved etc, is translated by Strong's concordance as "a deliverance". We are delivered (saved) many more times as we live here on earth, than the one time we are to be delivered eternally. For example; When a regenerated person commits a sin, they lose their fellowship with God until they repent and if God forgives them, they have just experienced a deliverance (salvation) from that sin. When a person ask God to heal them or someone else, and God heals them, that is a deliverance (salvation).
The gospel is "the good news". The good news that the apostles was to preach to his elect is to preach Christ and him crucified. Telling them that they were chosen by God before the world was, to be adopted as his children and that their lives were secured, because he had his Son to pay the adoption price by his death on the cross to wash away all of their sins and that Christ is to come back to take them home, which is the final phase of the adoption. Is not that "THE GOOD NEWS" of the gospel? God also instructed the apostles to teach his elect children his instructions to them on how he wants them to live their lives while here on earth. The inspired scriptures are written to his children, not to the non-elect, telling them how they are saved, not how to get saved. The one main thing that causes most of God's children not be able to harmonize the scriptures is because they do not properly divide the salvation scriptures. Salvation, save, saved etc, is translated by Strong's concordance as "a deliverance". We are delivered (saved) many more times as we live here on earth, than the one time we are to be delivered eternally. For example; When a regenerated person commits a sin, they lose their fellowship with God until they repent and if God forgives them, they have just experienced a deliverance (salvation) from that sin. When a person ask God to heal them or someone else, and God heals them, that is a deliverance (salvation).
Hi ForestGreenCook, this still does not answer the question of why both the 12 and the 70 preached/taught/healed ALL people, elect or otherwise (we know they did because they were instructed to shake the dust off their feet in the case of those people/towns who rejected the Gospel), and why Jesus preached to all as well. Nor have you told us how the 12, the 70, or any witnesses/evangelists since they were sent can tell one unbeliever from another, IOW, how can we tell the unbelieving elect from the unbelieving non-elect so that we can witness only to the elect?
How do you tell?
Thanks!
~Deut
How do you tell?
Thanks!
~Deut
I already explained 1 Cor 2:14 to you Here, Here, Here, and Here (and I can provide more links if you'd like).
You then changed your tack (as well as Scripture) and made the absurd claim that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness as revealed in in Rom 1:18-32 are really just "disobedient children of God".
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to the wisdom of God spoken by Paul in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom ... Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:7-8).
You then changed your tack (as well as Scripture) and made the absurd claim that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness as revealed in in Rom 1:18-32 are really just "disobedient children of God".
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to the wisdom of God spoken by Paul in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom ... Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:7-8).
Yes, that's true, but that's not the whole story. The works that Christ did on our behalf are the basis for God's gracious salvation of all who believe. IOW, our salvation is merited for us by the things Jesus did for us while He lived among us, which includes both His death on the Cross to atone for our sins and the perfect, righteous life that He lived as a man before His Father on our behalf. Jesus is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins.
No, I believe that God declares us just when we believe, not before. As someone above just mentioned, we are "justified by faith", by believing, not apart from it.
Yes, God quickens our hearts so that we can hear that Gospel and finally choose to respond positively to it, but we are not saved until we respond/believe.
I don't think we can know, but I have always assumed that we are permanently indwelt by the HS when we have heard, believed and are justified/saved, not before.
~Deut
No, I believe that God declares us just when we believe, not before. As someone above just mentioned, we are "justified by faith", by believing, not apart from it.
Yes, God quickens our hearts so that we can hear that Gospel and finally choose to respond positively to it, but we are not saved until we respond/believe.
I don't think we can know, but I have always assumed that we are permanently indwelt by the HS when we have heard, believed and are justified/saved, not before.
~Deut
Dear Diana and ForrestGreen, When I first believed, it was after years of RC upbringing, which I abandoned as a human ritual construct. When I first believed, I knew in my core the truth of God's amazing love and mercy and grace. Not a 'feeling', a certainty. I knew it more certainly than I knew my own name. I can see now it was the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, against which no human or unclean spirit being can fight.
Relative to your conversation, I thought of the Scripture: Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD. To some, the Word preached is folly, to others it is the sounds of chains falling off. I believe the Holy Spirit transforms the receiver of God's Word supernaturally to receive the Truth of the message, which is 'foolishness' to those who perish. God chooses us, not the other way around.
We can't tell who will receive and who will not. Preaching is an act of Faith. God honours acts of Faith which He has instructed us to do.
Go unto the world and preach the Gospel. I read that somewhere.
Diana! Your funny squirrel looks just like me! Love the caption. OOOPS!
Relative to your conversation, I thought of the Scripture: Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of GOD. To some, the Word preached is folly, to others it is the sounds of chains falling off. I believe the Holy Spirit transforms the receiver of God's Word supernaturally to receive the Truth of the message, which is 'foolishness' to those who perish. God chooses us, not the other way around.
We can't tell who will receive and who will not. Preaching is an act of Faith. God honours acts of Faith which He has instructed us to do.
Go unto the world and preach the Gospel. I read that somewhere.
Diana! Your funny squirrel looks just like me! Love the caption. OOOPS!
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General observation: Understanding the event sequence of when one is 'saved' and justified may be a challenge to our perspective living in space-time, with no way to see beyond time. Our Father is outside the time domain, which is tricky at best to put into our understanding, so please don't sweat the small stuff. Our Father is on the Throne. Who chose whom?
- [John 15:16a] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
- [2 Th 2:13] But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
- [Luke 18:6,7] And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him...
- [Eph 1:11-12] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
- [1 Cor 1:27-29] God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
- [1 Pet 1:2] Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
- [Eph 1:4-5] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
Hi Hevosmies, while I agree with a number of the other points that you made in your post, I do not agree that 1 Corinthians 2:14 or the verses that precede it in that Book are referring to the "deep things" of God (for the most part anyway). Rather, they refer to the simple, Gospel message whenever unbelievers (natural men/women) are in view. For instance, this verse, which refers specifically to "the word of the Cross"/the "Gospel", could not make that fact any clearer.
.........1 Corinthians 1
.........18 ..The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
When 1 Corinthians 2:14 speaks of the unbeliever's (the natural man/woman's) inability to perceive (accept/understand) the things of God as anything more than foolishness, the Apostle 'could' be referring to the "deeper things" of the Spirit, but he is certainly and principally referring to the basics of the Gospel as well, just like he did only a few verses earlier in 1 Cor 1:18. We are only capable of believing when God makes it possible for us to do so (through His gracious "gift" of saving faith .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8 to all of us who are His, which is what makes it possible for us to hear, understand, and believe).
~Deut
.........1 Corinthians 1
.........18 ..The word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
When 1 Corinthians 2:14 speaks of the unbeliever's (the natural man/woman's) inability to perceive (accept/understand) the things of God as anything more than foolishness, the Apostle 'could' be referring to the "deeper things" of the Spirit, but he is certainly and principally referring to the basics of the Gospel as well, just like he did only a few verses earlier in 1 Cor 1:18. We are only capable of believing when God makes it possible for us to do so (through His gracious "gift" of saving faith .. e.g. Ephesians 2:8 to all of us who are His, which is what makes it possible for us to hear, understand, and believe).
~Deut
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So, are you saying that we are not saved eternally after we have been regenerated, until we believe? Would that not make our believing to be what saves us, if so, would not that be by our works? I believe that his elect is elected by God's adopting his elect, in somewhat the same manner as we legally adopt. God choose us (Eph 1). Jesus paid the legal fees by his sacrifice on the cross for the elect (John 6:39 and the final phase of the adoption will be when Christ comes back to take us home. (matt 24:31).
Hi BaptistBibleBeliever, my post was specifically concerned with unbelievers and what was said about them in the first half of v18, so I'm somewhat confused about the point you are making about the 2nd half of that verse.
If it has to do with σῴζω [sozo], I believe that verb can be translated "are saved" or "are being saved", but I (along with every other translation and paraphrase other than the AV) think that "are being saved" is preferable, because σῴζω (present, passive, participle) speaks of an action in progress/one which is still taking place. Again though, both are acceptable translations because both translations mean the same thing in context.
~Deut
If it has to do with σῴζω [sozo], I believe that verb can be translated "are saved" or "are being saved", but I (along with every other translation and paraphrase other than the AV) think that "are being saved" is preferable, because σῴζω (present, passive, participle) speaks of an action in progress/one which is still taking place. Again though, both are acceptable translations because both translations mean the same thing in context.
~Deut
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I already explained 1 Cor 2:14 to you Here, Here, Here, and Here (and I can provide more links if you'd like).
You then changed your tack (as well as Scripture) and made the absurd claim that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness as revealed in in Rom 1:18-32 are really just "disobedient children of God".
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to the wisdom of God spoken by Paul in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom ... Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:7-8).
You then changed your tack (as well as Scripture) and made the absurd claim that those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness as revealed in in Rom 1:18-32 are really just "disobedient children of God".
Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to the wisdom of God spoken by Paul in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom ... Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:7-8).
Hi again ForestGreenCook, the Bible tells us that those of us who belong to God are "loved with an everlasting love" .. cf Jeremiah 31:3 (meaning that there was never a time in eternity past when He did not already love us, nor will there ever be a time when He does not love us now or in the future ). So I suppose there is a sense in which the saints are saved eternally (IOW, both in the future and in the past).
Outside of the mind of God and within space/time however, we are 1. saved from the moment we first "believe" (justification), then 2. God continues His mighty work of salvation in us throughout our lives as He grows us up in His Son (sanctification), and finally 3. He will also save us in the everlasting sense on the other side of the grave as well (glorification).
Also, St. Peter also tells us about God's patient concern for His saints (specifically, the "saints to be" if you will):
.........2 Peter 3
.........9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but .........for all to come to repentance.
God waits patiently on His elect (the 'saints to be') to come to saving faith/believe in Him (He is not waiting patiently for unbelievers who He already knows never will). This helps to make it clear that we are not saved from eternity past, because we must come to faith in Him as He waits patiently for us to do so, yes?
~Deut
p.s. - and as the Apostle Paul tells us:
........Romans 10
........9 ..If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, & believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
........10 ..for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, & with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
........
). So I suppose there is a sense in which the saints are saved eternally (IOW, both in the future and in the past).Outside of the mind of God and within space/time however, we are 1. saved from the moment we first "believe" (justification), then 2. God continues His mighty work of salvation in us throughout our lives as He grows us up in His Son (sanctification), and finally 3. He will also save us in the everlasting sense on the other side of the grave as well (glorification).
Also, St. Peter also tells us about God's patient concern for His saints (specifically, the "saints to be" if you will):
.........2 Peter 3
.........9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but .........for all to come to repentance.
God waits patiently on His elect (the 'saints to be') to come to saving faith/believe in Him (He is not waiting patiently for unbelievers who He already knows never will). This helps to make it clear that we are not saved from eternity past, because we must come to faith in Him as He waits patiently for us to do so, yes?
~Deut
p.s. - and as the Apostle Paul tells us:
........Romans 10
........9 ..If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, & believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
........10 ..for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, & with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
........
Sorry about the formatting of 2 Peter 3:9 above! I didn't notice it in time to fix it (before our 5 minute editing time had expired). I did not mean for any special emphasis to be placed on the last 6 words of that verse, so please just read it as it's normally written. Thanks and again, sorry about that
Hi @BaptistBibleBeliever, that you disagree with my assessment above seems clear enough from the little red X that you gave me as a comment, but that doesn't tell me/us why you disagree, or what you are specifically disagreeing with.
If you would be so kind, please elaborate a bit.
Thanks!
~Deut
If you would be so kind, please elaborate a bit.
Thanks!
~Deut
I believe that Jesus instructed the apostles to go to the churches that he set up that were situated throughout the world at that present time. The scriptures say that God adds to the church daily such as should be saved (not eternally, but timely delivered). Our members and preachers alike travel the world over to sister churches. Each individual church has an annual meeting Friday through Sunday at different times throughout the year, and sometime we travel many miles to attend to hear "the good news" and to associate with one another, with the ladies preparing the meals. I personally know members and preachers from most of the states in the US. Our preachers do not try to save souls eternally, because Jesus has already finished that work on the cross. I do believe that all scriptures must harmonize to understand Jesus's doctrine completely and I do not have all of the explanations, dusting their feet off is one of them. I pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal more and more to me as I continue to study and discuss the scriptures.
Good post. I would like to add one more scripture to show why in Eph 1 that God choose his elect. Ps 53:2-3 - God looked down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back; they are altogether become filthy; there is none that dooeth good, no, not one. This shoots down the salvation by works people saying he choose his elect by his foreknowledge of knowing those that would accept him.
Sorry about the formatting of 2 Peter 3:9 above! I didn't notice it in time to fix it (before our 5 minute editing time had expired). I did not mean for any special emphasis to be placed on the last 6 words of that verse, so please just read it as it's normally written. Thanks and again, sorry about that