My only problem with KJV is it is 1611 English. Some things in the KJV are stated better than modern versions. An example in KJV it states the carnal mind is enmity against God. The modern versions use much longer statements that water it down to me. That is why my Bible is my smart phone with one Chrome browser web page permanently set on biblegateway.com. I select book and chapter then bounce between translations. KJV, NIV, and AMPC are my favorites. I use others from time to time. Each has its benefits and problems.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Addendum blocked by the 5 minute rule. Got in before it but that doesn't mean anything.
You need to be cognizant of both. KJV archaic language and along with NIV don't give you the complete definition of the translated words. AMPC fixes the issue but is combersome to read although it makes an excellent study Bible. Depends on your usage. That's why my Bible is my smartphone with biblegateway.com on tap. I can bounce around between translations. Foreign languages are there as well. So dealing with a person who grew up in another language you can set it to that language.
You need to be cognizant of both. KJV archaic language and along with NIV don't give you the complete definition of the translated words. AMPC fixes the issue but is combersome to read although it makes an excellent study Bible. Depends on your usage. That's why my Bible is my smartphone with biblegateway.com on tap. I can bounce around between translations. Foreign languages are there as well. So dealing with a person who grew up in another language you can set it to that language.
No you do not understand what I said. The Error is Post-Tribulation, no matter where he got it from. When I said, I could tell that He did not use commentaries, was referring to Every WIDELY Respected Commentary that I own, are in agreement that the Calling Out of the Bride is most definitely PRE-TRIBULATION, as well as Messianic Scholars, and MY personal study, BUT MOST OF ALL the Holy Spirit has Convinced me To Expect my Bridegroom to send the Archangel to SHOUT and Call all those Waiting for the Bridegroom; will be Pre-Trib. You have to be Expecting and Watching for the Bridegroom, to be invited to the wedding in HEAVEN, that comes from the Holy Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (HCSB)
4 But you, brothers, are not in the dark, for this day to overtake you like a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 (TLB)
6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Watch for his return and stay sober.
Matthew 25:13 (ESV)
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
Matthew 24:44 (HCSB)
44 This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
The Son of Man comes at an hour you do not expect, to snatch the BRIDE away to GO to HIS FATHER'S House for the Wedding.
The KING OF kings, Returns to Make War on His Enemies, and to SET UP a 1000 Year Kingdom on the Throne of David.
TWO totally different EVENTS. Anyone who thinks the Bride has to go through the WRATH, or GREAT TRIBULATION, not only are wrong, but they will GET TO GO THROUGH IT. I and all others who are Watching and Expecting the Bridegroom, will by INVITE, be at that Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven.
1 Thessalonians 5:4 (HCSB)
4 But you, brothers, are not in the dark, for this day to overtake you like a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 (TLB)
6 So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Watch for his return and stay sober.
Matthew 25:13 (ESV)
13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
Matthew 24:44 (HCSB)
44 This is why you also must be ready, because the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
The Son of Man comes at an hour you do not expect, to snatch the BRIDE away to GO to HIS FATHER'S House for the Wedding.
The KING OF kings, Returns to Make War on His Enemies, and to SET UP a 1000 Year Kingdom on the Throne of David.
TWO totally different EVENTS. Anyone who thinks the Bride has to go through the WRATH, or GREAT TRIBULATION, not only are wrong, but they will GET TO GO THROUGH IT. I and all others who are Watching and Expecting the Bridegroom, will by INVITE, be at that Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven.
What difference does that make? ? ? Jews have always thought they were the Bride. Now that most Churches think They are the Bride and not Israel.
I absolutely believe this:
The word CHURCH is NOT IN THE ORIGINAL writings that became our N.T. The Word that Jesus Used, and the Apostles used was ASSEMBLY.
So when Jesus said:
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
The exact same thing, as HE called all True Believers of the O.T. Does that mean He builds two Folds that will become ONE flock at the RAPTURE? ABSOLUTELY! Remember the birthday of the so-called Church is not until Pentecost after His Ascension. Therefore, the people He was talking to was the last of the O.T. Assembly. AND HE WILL BUILD A N.T. ASSEMBLY, TOO. And the TWO will become ONE FLOCK at the Calling Out of the Bride:
John 10:16 (ESV)
16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
I absolutely believe this:
The word CHURCH is NOT IN THE ORIGINAL writings that became our N.T. The Word that Jesus Used, and the Apostles used was ASSEMBLY.
So when Jesus said:
Matthew 16:18 (YLT)
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
The exact same thing, as HE called all True Believers of the O.T. Does that mean He builds two Folds that will become ONE flock at the RAPTURE? ABSOLUTELY! Remember the birthday of the so-called Church is not until Pentecost after His Ascension. Therefore, the people He was talking to was the last of the O.T. Assembly. AND HE WILL BUILD A N.T. ASSEMBLY, TOO. And the TWO will become ONE FLOCK at the Calling Out of the Bride:
John 10:16 (ESV)
16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Where does it say you have to believe the pre-trib rapture to be taken along? Im still on the fence. pan-trib rapture for me, whatever "pans out" im happy with. But pre-trib makes sense because its gonna be such a rough time on earth that it would be nearly impossible to survive.
Also you used Matthew 24:44 as a proof-text, but I have heard pre-tribbers say the rapture was only revealed to Paul as a mystery and Matthew 24 is the second advent because it says "after the tribulation of those days" the gathering occurs verse 29-31.
Also what about when Jesus says that He will raise His sheep up "at the last day"? Are these a separate group from the Church?
Not asking to start a fight here, just thinking through these things.
I will gladly admit my ignorance on this subject though. I read through it and I arrived at the rapture/second coming being at Revelation 11:15, but most likely I am wrong because when Paul wrote to the Corinthians about the "Last trumpet" the book of Revelation had not yet been written, so they would of had no idea about any of that in the church at Corinth.
Also you used Matthew 24:44 as a proof-text, but I have heard pre-tribbers say the rapture was only revealed to Paul as a mystery and Matthew 24 is the second advent because it says "after the tribulation of those days" the gathering occurs verse 29-31.
Also what about when Jesus says that He will raise His sheep up "at the last day"? Are these a separate group from the Church?
Not asking to start a fight here, just thinking through these things.
I will gladly admit my ignorance on this subject though. I read through it and I arrived at the rapture/second coming being at Revelation 11:15, but most likely I am wrong because when Paul wrote to the Corinthians about the "Last trumpet" the book of Revelation had not yet been written, so they would of had no idea about any of that in the church at Corinth.
No, the ones that are INVITED to the Wedding are those Watching and Expecting the Bridegroom at any Time. Not those that think they can wait until the 7 Year Peace Treaty is signed with ISRAEL, to start to look for the HIM. The Tribulation Saints only arrive after they have been Martyred in their human spirits. We arrived in our Glorified Bodies.
That is true but the Jews still hold a special place as the the chosen people. Jews are unique in history. All other people driven from their homeland disappeared in history. Not the Jews. The word Jew was first used by the king of the northern 10 tribes and is a way of saying people of Judah. It consisted of the tribe of Judah, Bengamin and part of the Levites who served as priests. In point of fact Jews have a special marker in their DNA referred to as the Levitical marker. They are unique in history. How come? Could it be the hand of God? Most likely.
Making a "Pledge, swearing an oath or a creed or a vow, is all making a promise that your words are true and trust worthy, And Jesus say's, "do not make an oath at all", "let your yes be yes and your no be no"
To say only the rich had access to a Bible is disingenuous. It is a well known fact that Epistles were circulated among the Churches as early as "AD 50", so your assertion that only the rich had access to the word of God is not true. The "creed" came along about 250yrs later. so that today there is no need for speaking a creed like a parrot when as VCO say's we have the Holy Bible in our hands.
To say only the rich had access to a Bible is disingenuous. It is a well known fact that Epistles were circulated among the Churches as early as "AD 50", so your assertion that only the rich had access to the word of God is not true. The "creed" came along about 250yrs later. so that today there is no need for speaking a creed like a parrot when as VCO say's we have the Holy Bible in our hands.
Jews are very much the chosen people. However, God has not blessed the Jews ever since . . .
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(Acts 13:44-48).
He will once again deal with the Jews but it will be in harsh judgment during the seven-year 'time of Jacob's trouble' . . . but He will remove the saved prior to the beginning of that time of tribulation.
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(Acts 13:44-48).
He will once again deal with the Jews but it will be in harsh judgment during the seven-year 'time of Jacob's trouble' . . . but He will remove the saved prior to the beginning of that time of tribulation.
Only a few copies were made and those were circulated (meaning sent from one to another) and was not the whole Bible. To create a Bible a scribe started with the copy he had to copy from. Then bring out the parchment he was to copy it on. Then with one finger on a letter he would copy that letter and then go to the next letter until he finished the part he was copying. He had a pointer to keep track of where he was any time he left the table. After finishing any text several tests were made. If any turned up in error the new copy was destroyed. Thus time consuming and rare to make. Think about trying to copy the bible with a typewriter. It was much more laborious and time consuming than that.
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Isaiah 45:20-25, “Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, you who have escaped from the nations. No knowledge have they who are lifting up the wood of their carved image, and pray to a mighty one that does not save. Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, יהוה? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous Strength and a Savior, there is none besides Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and boast.”
Not exactly. They were disposed of. The scribes knew that even though the page had an error . . . it was still God's Word and they would not simply burn it. For instance, the monks at St. Catherine's monastery would place the pages in a 'consecrated' barrel. Count Tischendorf entered that monastery and took those barrels. Those pages (errors and all) were incorporated into the Siniaticus and Vaticanus translations of the Bible in Alexandria. These are the older and better manuscripts that the Bible correctors like to use to 'correct' the Authorized version of the Bible . . . did I mention . . . 'errors and all!'
This is why we see things like, 'this paragraph was not found in the older and better manuscripts' . . . HOGWASH!!!
This is why we see things like, 'this paragraph was not found in the older and better manuscripts' . . . HOGWASH!!!
You and dcom both put words in my mouth I never stated. Keep in mind each gospel preaching denomination and independent churches have a doctrinal statement defining their beliefs. The creeds are doctrinal statements the elders created to define what a Christian must believe. As I have repeatedly asked find any error in them and give the scriptural evidence of their error. Also keep in mind they were written between 212 and 500. No printing presses to crank out multitudinous copies of the Bible. Quit imputing today's culture to that era. Memorization of creeds and some scripture was how the gospel message was conveyed. Creeds were an important vehicle to accomplish this. How else should they have done it without copies of the Bible on hand?
Addendum
Never ever has anyone ever pointed out scriptural evidence of error in the creeds. That is because the elders carefully chose their words to conform to the Bible. They have also stood the test of time without any error found. What is ranted is Bible only ignoring that in 212 through the time of the printing press was created Bibles were expensive and rare. All hand copied by scribes. Why do you people ignore the history of why the creeds were needed. Today's world only with tons of Bibles with various translations. Ignore that is relatively recent history. 1440 to 1450. Before that hand copied or carved wood block sometime earlier than 1440.
Never ever has anyone ever pointed out scriptural evidence of error in the creeds. That is because the elders carefully chose their words to conform to the Bible. They have also stood the test of time without any error found. What is ranted is Bible only ignoring that in 212 through the time of the printing press was created Bibles were expensive and rare. All hand copied by scribes. Why do you people ignore the history of why the creeds were needed. Today's world only with tons of Bibles with various translations. Ignore that is relatively recent history. 1440 to 1450. Before that hand copied or carved wood block sometime earlier than 1440.
I did research on how the scribes operated. They made several tests. One was counting the letters in the documents, after that count to the middle of the document and verify it is the same letter. Any difference in the several tests had the document destroyed because it was now error prone. In fact inconsequential errors were made that didn't alter the meaning of the text. Today we use them to make a tree of the documents errors and know when and were they were copied. Absolutely none of these errors impact the meaning of the text. A misspelling here and there. Enough to track the texts point in where and when it was copied.
Strain at gnats?
KJV commandment "Thou shalt not kill."
Modern translations" you shall not murder."
So according to you if your cars brakes fail and you hit a car killing that person you are guilty of murder. Is that correct? I don't call that straining at a gnat. Basic modern definitions of the words. Back in 1611 saying someone stinks was a complement. Then it became an insult and smell replaced it. Today if you say someone smells it is an insult unless you modify it by adding nice or describing the pleasant smell. Languages keep changing over time. Get a copy of Choucer in the original language and have fun figuring it out. Even Shakespeare has issues. A lot of his humor goes right over people's heads today because some jobs then don't exist today and words have modified their meaning. Read a piece discussing that issue a while back. Don't remember the details just the concept of the issue. Language changes slowly over time.
Live with it!
KJV commandment "Thou shalt not kill."
Modern translations" you shall not murder."
So according to you if your cars brakes fail and you hit a car killing that person you are guilty of murder. Is that correct? I don't call that straining at a gnat. Basic modern definitions of the words. Back in 1611 saying someone stinks was a complement. Then it became an insult and smell replaced it. Today if you say someone smells it is an insult unless you modify it by adding nice or describing the pleasant smell. Languages keep changing over time. Get a copy of Choucer in the original language and have fun figuring it out. Even Shakespeare has issues. A lot of his humor goes right over people's heads today because some jobs then don't exist today and words have modified their meaning. Read a piece discussing that issue a while back. Don't remember the details just the concept of the issue. Language changes slowly over time.
Live with it!
Sorry DC, I will answer this question and then get back on subject:
I am glad you explained Pan-Trib, I actually stopped reading after I read Pan-Trib, wondering what was that? Then I got a huge chuckle when I Read: whatever "pans out". LOL Actually almost all of the Verses that I have been using in the Past several Posts, are Pre-Trib Verses, but more than that, I wrote a detailed explanation in my thread:
THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3595
The Last Day, has several difference meaning. I think it refers to the LAST DAY OF THE CHURCH AGE. It can also refer to the 70th Week of Daniel, To the LORD the DAY is as a 1000 years, also Judgement Day, etc.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (HCSB)
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ.
I think that will CLEARLY be in the ORDER that we died. ADAM FIRST, then all of us that have DIED, could be several days, THEN:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
You ask about the Trumpet, and it is NOT RELATED TO THE TRUMPET JUDGEMENT.
The Last Trumpet has been a mixture of misinformation. There is in JUDAISM a Trumpet Note that Is called the LAST TRUMP. It is during the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh HaShanah, there are a 100 blasts on a Shofar Trumpet. The FINAL LAST of the 100 is Called the Last Trump. It is a very LONG sustained Note, unlike the other 99 notes, here are Trumpet Blasts:
@@@@@@@@@@@@
(4) The Trumpet Blasts:
The Tekiah – is a long, single blast. It was straight, plain, smooth, continuous note and it is to symbolize the expression of joy and contentment.
The Shevarim – is three short blasts. A combination of three broken notes to symbolize weeping.
The Truah – Extremely short blasts which are a combination of nine staccato notes in a very quick succession of short trill. This symbolizes trepidation, sorrow and sobbing.
The Tekiah Gedolah – Means “the last trump.” This one symbolizes the hope of redemption. It is a very long, final note.
– In these one hundred blasts, the first of three categories are combined back and forth until there is a total of 99 sounds. Then comes the 100th, the Tekiah Gedolah, a very long-sustained note – as long as the trumpeter had breath to hold it, and this is known as “the last trump.” That will become very significant when the Messianic Implications of this particular festival are discussed.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@
When it says the TRUMPET OF GOD, I cannot point to a Scripture that it will be all of the 100 Notes, BUT I THINK IT WILL BE SO, and 100th Blast is the Tekiah Gedolah blast, AND I think THAT is the TRUMP that the DEAD WILL RISE ON THAT LAST TRUMP. Therefore I believe it is a reference to that Tekiah Gedolah blast, and not the Seventh TRUMPET Judgement of Revelation, Rev. 10:7-11.
Here is SHOFAR TRUMPETER demonstrating this Feast of Trumpets so we can hear what it sounds like.
I am glad you explained Pan-Trib, I actually stopped reading after I read Pan-Trib, wondering what was that? Then I got a huge chuckle when I Read: whatever "pans out". LOL Actually almost all of the Verses that I have been using in the Past several Posts, are Pre-Trib Verses, but more than that, I wrote a detailed explanation in my thread:
THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-3595
The Last Day, has several difference meaning. I think it refers to the LAST DAY OF THE CHURCH AGE. It can also refer to the 70th Week of Daniel, To the LORD the DAY is as a 1000 years, also Judgement Day, etc.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (HCSB)
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ.
I think that will CLEARLY be in the ORDER that we died. ADAM FIRST, then all of us that have DIED, could be several days, THEN:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
You ask about the Trumpet, and it is NOT RELATED TO THE TRUMPET JUDGEMENT.
The Last Trumpet has been a mixture of misinformation. There is in JUDAISM a Trumpet Note that Is called the LAST TRUMP. It is during the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh HaShanah, there are a 100 blasts on a Shofar Trumpet. The FINAL LAST of the 100 is Called the Last Trump. It is a very LONG sustained Note, unlike the other 99 notes, here are Trumpet Blasts:
@@@@@@@@@@@@
(4) The Trumpet Blasts:
The Tekiah – is a long, single blast. It was straight, plain, smooth, continuous note and it is to symbolize the expression of joy and contentment.
The Shevarim – is three short blasts. A combination of three broken notes to symbolize weeping.
The Truah – Extremely short blasts which are a combination of nine staccato notes in a very quick succession of short trill. This symbolizes trepidation, sorrow and sobbing.
The Tekiah Gedolah – Means “the last trump.” This one symbolizes the hope of redemption. It is a very long, final note.
– In these one hundred blasts, the first of three categories are combined back and forth until there is a total of 99 sounds. Then comes the 100th, the Tekiah Gedolah, a very long-sustained note – as long as the trumpeter had breath to hold it, and this is known as “the last trump.” That will become very significant when the Messianic Implications of this particular festival are discussed.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@
When it says the TRUMPET OF GOD, I cannot point to a Scripture that it will be all of the 100 Notes, BUT I THINK IT WILL BE SO, and 100th Blast is the Tekiah Gedolah blast, AND I think THAT is the TRUMP that the DEAD WILL RISE ON THAT LAST TRUMP. Therefore I believe it is a reference to that Tekiah Gedolah blast, and not the Seventh TRUMPET Judgement of Revelation, Rev. 10:7-11.
Here is SHOFAR TRUMPETER demonstrating this Feast of Trumpets so we can hear what it sounds like.
So the Not by works thread has now become
End time eschatology debate.
Made a note to myself.
"Bill when you tell people about Jesus, how much he loves them, how he can heal, how he accepts then where they are at, they are significant, secure and accepted by faith BUT if you don't understand end time eschatology there is a problem"
Yes I may be over dramatic but the drunk guy who stumbled into church, the people who are not intelligent, and the list could go on"
They just want to know that they are loved and accepted for who they are.
I'm not saying it's wrong to discuss such things, but if it's heavy, intellectual please start another thread and don't detract from this one.
End time eschatology debate.
Made a note to myself.
"Bill when you tell people about Jesus, how much he loves them, how he can heal, how he accepts then where they are at, they are significant, secure and accepted by faith BUT if you don't understand end time eschatology there is a problem"
Yes I may be over dramatic but the drunk guy who stumbled into church, the people who are not intelligent, and the list could go on"
They just want to know that they are loved and accepted for who they are.
I'm not saying it's wrong to discuss such things, but if it's heavy, intellectual please start another thread and don't detract from this one.
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