Jesus and the Covenants

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

newton3003

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2017
437
42
28
#1
Galatians 3:29 says, “…if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.” The promise referred to here is generally believed to be the Covenant God made with Abraham. In Genesis 17:6-7, God says to Abraham “I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.” In Genesis 17: 10, God says to Abraham “This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.” This is all one needed to do in order to receive God’s blessings! No Laws, no Commandments, just this condition.

But later on, God establishes a new Covenant, with Moses and the Hebrews He rescued from Egypt, and at that point He adds the conditions of the Laws and the Commandments. Moses says in Deuteronomy 28:1-6,” And if you faithfully obey the voice of the LORD your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God. Blessed shall you be in the city and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. Blessed shall you be when you come in, and blessed shall you be when you go out…” This is what God essentially says in Leviticus 26.

The question is, which Covenant does Jesus want us to go by? Consider that he said he came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, and he did not come to change anything that is in the Law. If he was talking to the Jews, where does that leave everyone else, to whom Jesus wants his disciples to spread the Word? Did Jesus tell his disciples, ‘Don’t discuss the Law with those whom you want to convey the Word to, just tell them to love God and love eachother.’? That is possible, since Jesus said the Law and the prophets can be summed up in the two commandments of loving God and eachother.

Yet Galatians 3:29, which comes along after Jesus and the Gospels, refers back to the Covenant God made with Abraham, in which all the people had to do to honor that Covenant is to circumcise all the males. It’s a variation of earmarking, except that it’s done in a different place on the body!

But Christ didn’t say he came to uphold the Covenant God made with Abraham, he was focused on the one that God made with Moses and the Hebrews. So why doesn’t Galatians 3:29 say something like ‘…if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise God made to Moses.’? Keep in mind that the Covenant with Moses et. al. is not have limited to just the people that God rescued from Egypt, since Moses says in Deuteronomy 29:14-15, “It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant but with whoever is standing here with us today” Since God mandated that the Law be kept by future generations, it is those that Moses refers to.

Does it matter which Covenant applies? It does, since even the condensed version of the Law and the Prophets that Jesus speaks of, demands more from us than just male circumcision referred to in God’s Covenant with Abraham.

It seems that there are many who profess to be religious, believing in God through Jesus, but, even among the clergy it seems, it is believed that just God’s Covenant with Abraham applies, with one variation perhaps, being that circumcision is not mandatory. Or, some of them may believe we’re under the Covenant God made with Moses, but they ignore the parts of the Law that require we love eachother and help the poor and needy, while upholding the Commandments as they apply to abortion, and the Law as it applies to homosexuality. But doesn’t it say in James 2:8-10 “If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself,’ you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.”?

There is yet another Covenant mentioned in the Bible, which comes from Jeremiah 31:34 which says that God will put the Law will be in our hearts.

So, which Covenant applies? And does Jesus refer to Jeremiah 31:34 in any of his teachings?
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
#2
When we say that 'God established' a covenant with so-and-so in the Old Testament we need to understand that a pre-incarnate Jesus established those covenants.

Note that those covenants were established with Israel - not the Gentiles, not the 'church.'

Our covenant with Jesus is His shed blood which covers all our sins past, present and future.

Do a search on 'christophany' and see what comes up.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#3
When we say that 'God established' a covenant with so-and-so in the Old Testament we need to understand that a pre-incarnate Jesus established those covenants.

Note that those covenants were established with Israel - not the Gentiles, not the 'church.'

Our covenant with Jesus is His shed blood which covers all our sins past, present and future.

Do a search on 'christophany' and see what comes up.
The covenant with Abraham was with the church wasn’t it?
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
#4
The covenant with Abraham was with the church wasn’t it?
No . . . that is the teaching of Replacement theology, the idea that God gave up on the Jew and is now working exclusively with the church. God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional and eternal.

God has placed Israel on a shelf, which began when Paul proclaimed, " . . . It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46).

The time will come when God will again deal exclusively with Israel, during the 'time of Jacobs trouble.'
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#5
The covenants all pointed to the New Covenant as their fulfillment which the church as Israel inherited. Lets face it, the church was basically Jewish/Israel before the Gentiles were brought into the "promises"

Acts 2:39 “For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#6
No . . . that is the teaching of Replacement theology, the idea that God gave up on the Jew and is now working exclusively with the church. God's covenant with Abraham was unconditional and eternal.

God has placed Israel on a shelf, which began when Paul proclaimed, " . . . It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46).

The time will come when God will again deal exclusively with Israel, during the 'time of Jacobs trouble.'
There's no such thing as replacement theology, the flesh descendants have never been God's chosen people.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#8
No - we are still going strong.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#10
So, is God finished with Israel?
In what way? I mean Christ came through the bloodlines, they penned the Old Testament and they were under the law but they were never the children of God, chosen people. The chosen people have always been and always will be the children of the promise like me, Paul, David, Isaac etc.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
#11
In what way? I mean Christ came through the bloodlines, they penned the Old Testament and they were under the law but they were never the children of God, chosen people. The chosen people have always been and always will be the children of the promise like me, Paul, David, Isaac etc.
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying" (Romans 11:1-2).
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#12
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying" (Romans 11:1-2).
You're coming to that verse with the assumption that flesh Jews are God's chosen people but the verses I posted earlier show that the children of the flesh are not the chosen.

Come to that verse with the assumption that Paul is God's chosen because he is, not because of his earthly lineage but because God chose HIM.

Even though God was about to cast away Israel at the time of Paul's writing, he WAS NOT casting away his chosen ones that came out of flesh Israel just because he was about to be done with the flesh children.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
#13
You're coming to that verse with the assumption that flesh Jews are God's chosen people but the verses I posted earlier show that the children of the flesh are not the chosen.

Come to that verse with the assumption that Paul is God's chosen because he is, not because of his earthly lineage but because God chose HIM.

Even though God was about to cast away Israel at the time of Paul's writing, he WAS NOT casting away his chosen ones that came out of flesh Israel just because he was about to be done with the flesh children.
Unredeemed Jews will have their part in the lake of fire along with the unredeemed Gentile. Paul says there is no difference. But this does not say that there will no longer be a remnant. God will put Israel through the fire and they will one day look at His hands and ask where was it that He received those wounds. In the house of my friends, will be His reply . . . and Israel will be born again, so to speak.

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zechariah 13:7-9).

God is not finished with the nation of Israel. God is not now working exclusively with the Church, having forever turned His back on the "children of the flesh" . . . He will restore them. Israel will inherit the earth, the church will dwell in the new city Jerusalem.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
#14
Unredeemed Jews will have their part in the lake of fire along with the unredeemed Gentile. Paul says there is no difference. But this does not say that there will no longer be a remnant. God will put Israel through the fire and they will one day look at His hands and ask where was it that He received those wounds. In the house of my friends, will be His reply . . . and Israel will be born again, so to speak.

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zechariah 13:7-9).

God is not finished with the nation of Israel. God is not now working exclusively with the Church, having forever turned His back on the "children of the flesh" . . . He will restore them. Israel will inherit the earth, the church will dwell in the new city Jerusalem.
Your talking as if the church didn't exist befor Christ came, do you believe Christ was in the church in the wilderness?

Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
#15
Your talking as if the church didn't exist befor Christ came, do you believe Christ was in the church in the wilderness?

Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
And you are insisting that an Old Testament reference to a called out assembly is the same as a New Testament church . . . Jesus was speaking future tense when He said that He would establish 'His church'. The New Testament church did not begin until Acts - when the assembly was endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit.

And yes, I do believe Scripture teaches a preincarnate Christ throughout the Old Testament.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#16
The spiritual promises—the promises of the “one seed,” Christ, and of salvation through Him
—the Bible calls the scepter. But the material and national promises relating to many nations,
national wealth, prosperity and power, and possession of the Holy Land, the Bible calls the birthright.

“Birthright: native right or privilege”—Standard Dictionary; “any right acquired by birth”—
Webster’s. A birthright is something which is one’s right, by birth. It has nothing to do with grace,
which is unmerited pardon and a free gift which is not one’s right. It has to do with race, not grace.
Birthright possessions are customarily passed down from father to eldest son.

“Scepter: kingly office; royal power; badge of command or sovereignty”—Standard Dictionary.
The promised kingly line culminates in Christ, and involves grace to all.
-

The promises, right of birth and gift of grace, were unconditionally made by God to Abraham.
Both the birthright and the scepter were repromised by the Eternal to Isaac and to Jacob.

The scepter promises of the kingly line culminating in Christ, and of grace through Him,
were handed on to Judah, son of Jacob and father of all Jews.

“The sceptre shall not depart from Judah?…” (Genesis 49:10).
ut the birthright was Joseph’s” (1 Chronicles 5:2).

The birthright promises were never given to the Jews!

So understand! The birthright promise did not pass on to the Jews! But the scepter—the promise
of Christ and of grace—was passed on to the Jews! “Salvation,” Jesus said, “is of the Jews”!

“The gospel of Christ,” wrote Paul, “is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16). The promises of grace were handed down
through Judah!

But the promises which the Bible terms the “birthright” have not been understood at all.
Few have ever noticed that God made any promises to Abraham other than the scepter.

Few know what is even in the Bible! What does the Birthright Conferred ?

Just what special material inheritance was passed on by the birthright few have understood.
Yet it conferred the richest, most valuable material inheritance ever passed from father to son.
 
Sep 9, 2018
2,244
1,032
113
70
Illinois
#17
Wasn't it that 'church in the wilderness' that fashioned a golden calf? Maybe they were Catholics?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#18
All Israel was saved back in the 1st century AD - the physical nation of Israel is of no longer of any concern (none of those masquerading on the dirt in the middle east can trace their lineage back to the 12 tribes).

God promised to create a new nation/people with another name after he had judged and destroyed the non believing flesh descendants of Israel in the war of 66-70 AD.

Isa 65:15 You will leave your name for my chosen ones to use in their curses; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

1 Pet 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#20
All Israel was saved back in the 1st century AD - the physical nation of Israel is of no longer
of any concern (none of those masquerading on the dirt in the middle east can trace their
lineage back to the 12 tribes).
.
hogwash