Jesus and the Covenants

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Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#42
Israel lost it's "chosen nation" status in the 1st century when the followers of Jesus became part of the new creation or created nation just as I wrote previously quoting Isa 65:15 and 1 Pet 2:9


But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Glossing over the above is a big mistake.
 
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#43
***What a radical idea, that God would place Israel on hold, or even, as another responder posted, that God cast away Israel. What’s left out is Acts 13:47 which says, “For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

That is quoted from Isaiah 49:6, but the whole passage, Isaiah 49:5-6, is as follows:” And now the LORD says,
he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him—for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength— he says:

“IT IS TOO LIGHT A THING THAT YOU SHOULD BE MY SERVANT TO RAISE UP THE TRIBES OF JACOB AND TO BRING BACK THE PRESERVED OF ISRAEL; I WILL MAKE YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE NATIONS…”

It appears that God did not put Israel on the shelf, or forsake her, as the posters believe Paul meant, but rather God through Jesus has lumped Israel in with the rest of the world.

I realize in my original post, I misquoted Deuteronomy 29:14-15. It should have read, “It is not with you alone that I am making this sworn covenant, but with whoever is standing here with us today before the Lord our God, and with whoever is NOT here with us today.” That would imply other generations, but it could also imply the rest of the world that wasn’t present with Moses when god declared His Covenant.

It was always God’s intent that the whole world love Him, and whoever did would be His chosen, inasmuch as the Bible says that the Heavens declare His glory.
The whole purpose of the Tribulation is for God to judge His covenant people and restore them to fellowship. Where is the temple right now? Where are their sacrifices right now? How is a Jew to be approved of God and find a sacrifice under Judaism right now?

In the future, why is the third temple built? Is it simply so that the Antichrist will have a place to take a dump in?
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#45
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.

This is the new covenant God made with Israel which is the New Testament.

But all Israel did not turn to Jesus.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Jesus came unto His own but His own received Him not, and the Jews will not see Jesus again until Israel as a nation says, blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God said He always has Jews that abide in the truth even concerning the New Testament, as it is today, but Israel as a nation is blinded in part, for they acknowledge the Old Testament for the most part, but not the New, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and so all Israel shall be saved.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Israel has 70 weeks determined upon them to make an end of sins, and anoint the most holy, who is Jesus, which they have not done that yet.

69 weeks has passed, which the last week, 7 years, is the time God causes all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom in Revelation 13, and when they do and take the mark of the beast, then repentance and salvation is no longer available to them, and the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in, and then God will turn Israel as a nation to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah fulfilling the 70th week.

The man of sin, New Age Christ, will establish peace in the Middle East and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel, and the Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety, and the 7 years period will start.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

The kingdom will be restored to Israel in the future and then Israel as a nation will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah, and they shall know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will never hide His face from them again.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is speaking of when the nation of Israel is in the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, for they will all know God in the truth, which they are not in the truth yet as a nation.

Israel is still blinded in part, and the fulness of the Gentiles have not come in yet so they are still blinded in part until that time, but Israel as a nation must come to the truth.

The 70th week could not have happened, and there is still Gentile nations ruling, which God will make a full end of them, their operating government.

This is the millennial reign of Christ when Israel is the mighty nation on earth, and their government the only operating government, and Jesus and the saints rule over the heathen that God spared when the world attacked Israel, and Jesus will rule out of Jerusalem, and the heathen have to go up year after year to worship the LORD, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Continued,
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#46
Continued,

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

All Israel will be in the truth, and shall know God in the truth from that day forward, and never stray again, and the heathen shall know that God was always on Israel's side, but they lost the kingdom on earth temporarily because of their sins against God by not acknowledging the truth, so God hid His face from them.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

But God will restore the kingdom to them, for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance on God's part, and will bring all Jews out of the nations and leave none of them in the nations anymore, which will happen by the Middle East peace treaty, which will cause all Jews to go to Israel, which is what the man of sin wants, but God means it for good.

God will never hide His face from them again, and this is the new covenant with them the New Testament that also includes that God will bring all Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah in the future, and they will be His people like they were with the start of the old covenant, only better.

Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I still see the sun, and the moon, and the stars shining, so those ordinances is still in effect, so Israel is still a nation to God even when they were scattered in to the nations, for He has not cast off His people that He once foreknew.
 
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#47
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

AMEN AND AMEN!!!
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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#49
Yes, and Israel will inherit the earth . . . so?
you mentioned

New Testament believing Gentiles have an entirely different promise
of where they will live.

Abraham was promised land, which he did not recieve.
The saints fall under the same [land-earth] promise-with eternal inheritance
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#50
Yikes, now we've got Mattforwallsoftext at it.

Look, the 12 tribes received the promises of the old covenant back in the 1st century as we have James writing to them as the first fruits:

James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

James 1:18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

The above are the first fruits of the book of Revelation not some supposed Jews/Israelites of 1900 years later:

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#51
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

AMEN AND AMEN!!!
Again which Israel, the flesh descendants or the spiritual descendants? They are not all Israel that came out of the loins of Israel.
 
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#52
I think dispensa

Which Israel inherits the earth, the flesh descendants or spiritual descendants of Abraham?
I'll never be able to answer this to your satisfaction because you believe that the Church that came into existence at Pentecost is Jewish and remains Jewish as I understand your responses.

Abraham is the father of all them that believe . . . was he a Jew? God made an everlasting, unconditional covenant with Him - God has never turned His back on Israel.

Will the people that are 'born in a day' be believers when they see the hands of the Messiah? Has God stopped reaching out to lost Israel? Is God finished with the nation of Israel?
 
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#53
you mentioned

New Testament believing Gentiles have an entirely different promise
of where they will live.

Abraham was promised land, which he did not recieve.
The saints fall under the same [land-earth] promise-with eternal inheritance
"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:8-10).

Saved Gentiles will live in this place . . .

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful . . . And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21::1-5, 10-27).
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#54
I'll never be able to answer this to your satisfaction because you believe that the Church that came into existence at Pentecost is Jewish and remains Jewish as I understand your responses.

Abraham is the father of all them that believe . . . was he a Jew? God made an everlasting, unconditional covenant with Him - God has never turned His back on Israel.

Will the people that are 'born in a day' be believers when they see the hands of the Messiah? Has God stopped reaching out to lost Israel? Is God finished with the nation of Israel?
Well the bible does say that Christ was in the church (not assembly) in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10:2-4 KJV
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Remember Christ said and upon this ROCK will I build my church.... he wasn't talking about Peter?

I'm trying to show you that there are two Israels in the Old testament, flesh descendants of Israel and the spiritual descendants of Israel.

When the Old Testament speaks of Israel we have too discern which Israel is being spoken of. All of the Jews in the Old Testament were flesh descendants but the ones who chose to follow God are the spritual descendants of Spiritual Israel and Abraham, those are the children of promise.
 
#55
... In Genesis 17: 10, God says to Abraham “This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.” This is all one needed to do in order to receive God’s blessings! No Laws, no Commandments, just this condition. ...
I would like to humbly disagree with the above sentiment, as that would teach works, rather than living faith, as per the following verses:

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

It came through faith (which brought obedience), not the mere outward circumcision. Flesh never profited anyone (John 6:63), but always by faith (Hebrews 11; see Hebrews 11:8-13).

Circumcision of the flesh, was merely the outward sign (Romans 4:11) of that which was inward (Romans 2). Abraham was to believe by faith (Romans 4:10; Galatians 5:6), in the promise of God of the "seed" (from Genesis 3:15), and had failed in so doing in part (along with Sarah, freewoman), when he attempted to fulfil the promise through Hagar (bondwoman, bondage). It was a reminder to Abraham that God had already promised Abraham (Genesis 12:7).

Circumcision is still required today. A cutting away of the flesh which profiteth nothing. A circumcision of the heart, as it always was required: Deuteronomy 10:16, 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4; Romans 2:26, 15:8; 1 Corinthians 7:19; Galatians 5:6, 6:15; Philippians 3:3; Colossians 2:11.

Abraham walked with God (Genesis 17-19, etc), and kept God's commandments, laws, statutes and judgments (when walking by faith, except for that incident with Hagar), and even taught them to his children, such as Isaac and Ishmael, and also to his servants (who were all circumcised later). Isaac would teach Jacob/Israel (also Esau, who seemed to wander away from it), and Jacob/Israel would teach his children, the twelve tribes, unto such as Joseph, who would take it down into Egypt, and there God would be forgotten by a majority through the hard bondage. This is why God said to "Remember".

The Ten Comamndments of God were in existence from the beginning, just not written upon stone tables until Mt. Sinai in the time of Moses.
 
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#56
Well the bible does say that Christ was in the church (not assembly) in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10:2-4 KJV
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Remember Christ said and upon this ROCK will I build my church.... he wasn't talking about Peter?

I'm trying to show you that there are two Israels in the Old testament, flesh descendants of Israel and the spiritual descendants of Israel.

When the Old Testament speaks of Israel we have too discern which Israel is being spoken of. All of the Jews in the Old Testament were flesh descendants but the ones who chose to follow God are the spritual descendants of Spiritual Israel and Abraham, those are the children of promise.
I disagree with your notion that the church mentioned in the Old Testament is the same as found in the New Testament.

If 'flesh' Israel is no longer in play with God then why does He bother with the Tribulation period?

God has not given up on the nation of Israel.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#58
In regards to Abraham:

Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not [fn]ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

We have to understand that Abraham was not looking for a city based on dirt of the land.

The promises were to the spiritual - first the physical nation then the spiritual, first the physical temple then the spiritual etc.

1 Cor 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
 
#59
... God has never turned His back on Israel.
...
Who is the real Israel according to scripture? It is Jesus Christ. Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; and His children are His disciples, Hebrews 2:9-13; Isaiah 8:8-20 (see Hebrews 2:13; Isaiah 8:16,18), then see John 13:33, etc. Israel means, one who overcomes (sin/temptation) with God, see Revelation 3:21. Jesus is that true Israel, see Roman 9:1-8, &c.