Is Christmas paganism?
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I understand the Pagan side of the origin - but for me just like the... Harvest Festival, or Fertility festival where Easter is supposed to be derived from... about those things I just do not care -- love Christmas- the programs at church, even worldly people being more nicer, the movies, music and Easter too
Shepherd’s keeping watch over the flocks at night is the evidence of the time of year. The time of the birth of Jesus was around the time between the end of October to April. That is when the rainy season happens around Jerusalem. Thus causing the lush grass in the fields to feed the sheep. The shepherds stay in the field with the sheep. There is usually a minor lull in December but it still is the rainy season. Therefore December is a very possible time for his birth. The temperate around Jerusalem during winter is mild. No snow!!
the Bible says nothing about being cursed by celebrating Christ's birthday sister and I break your curse by Christ's blood. For me all things are legal. The Word says, "Do not observe the days, hours.. as the heathen do (as if a certain day is cursed)."
The Apostles said to "obstain from sexual sin and do not eat food offered to idols."
Where in God's Word does it say anything about bringing a curse on yourself by celebrating a holiday??
The Apostles said to "obstain from sexual sin and do not eat food offered to idols."
Where in God's Word does it say anything about bringing a curse on yourself by celebrating a holiday??
Jeremiah 10:1-5, “Hear the word which YHWH speaks concerning you, O house of Israyl. This is what YHWH says: Do not learn the way of the heathen and do not be deceived by the signs of heaven; though the heathen are deceived by them For the religious customs of the peoples are vain; worthless! For one cuts a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, so that it will not move; topple over. They are upright, like a palm tree, but they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot go by themselves. Do not give them reverence! They cannot do evil, nor is it in them to do righteousness!”
Deuteronomy 12:29-, “When YHWH your Father cuts off the nations from in front of you, and you displace them and live in their land, Be careful not to be ensnared into following them by asking about their gods, saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do the same. You must not worship YHWH your Father in their way, for every abomination to YHWH, which He hates, they have done to their gods."
Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia:
“How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia (December 25th) following the Saturnalia, and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the "new sun" cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence. The pagan festival with its riot and merry-making was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and manner. Christian teachers of the West and Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity, while Christians of Mesopotamia accused their western brethren of idolatry and sun worship for adopting as Christian the pagan festival.”
Deuteronomy 12:29-, “When YHWH your Father cuts off the nations from in front of you, and you displace them and live in their land, Be careful not to be ensnared into following them by asking about their gods, saying: How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do the same. You must not worship YHWH your Father in their way, for every abomination to YHWH, which He hates, they have done to their gods."
Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia:
“How much the date of the festival depended upon the pagan Brumalia (December 25th) following the Saturnalia, and celebrating the shortest day of the year and the "new sun" cannot be accurately determined. The pagan Saturnalia and Brumalia were too deeply entrenched in popular custom to be set aside by Christian influence. The pagan festival with its riot and merry-making was so popular that Christians were glad of an excuse to continue its celebration with little change in spirit and manner. Christian teachers of the West and Near East protested against the unseemly frivolity, while Christians of Mesopotamia accused their western brethren of idolatry and sun worship for adopting as Christian the pagan festival.”
We arent talking about people cursing. You are twisting what we are saying. The bible explicitly shows that doubg certain things brings a curse from God over some generations.
Exodos or Deuteronomy have it listed. As I am in school and my internez is messed up i cant find u the eexact verses but z can find them.
Exodos or Deuteronomy have it listed. As I am in school and my internez is messed up i cant find u the eexact verses but z can find them.
The history in the word is there for an example...
Exodus 32:1-7, “1 When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, “Up, make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.”"2 So Aaron said to them, “Take off the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.”"3 So all the people took off the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron."4 And he received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”"5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.”"6 And they rose up early the next day and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play."7 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.”
4000 Years of Christmas: A Gift from the Ages, page 28:
“We do not know its beginning, we do not really know when the Christ child it venerates was born: or the time and place when Christmas was first celebrated: or exactly how it was that, over the centuries, a bishop saint of Asia Minor, and a pagan god of the Germans merged to become Santa Claus. Although the Christmas story centers in the Christ child of Bethlehem, it begins so long before his coming that we find its hero arriving on the scene after more than half of the time of the story has gone by. Christmas began over 4000 years ago, as the festival which renewed the world for another year. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires and probably the yule log; the giving of presents; the carnivals with their floats; their merry makings and clownings; the mummers who sing and play from house to house, the feastings; the church processions with their lights and song all these and more began three centuries before Christ was born. And they celebrated the arrival of a new year."
Exodus 32:1-7, “1 When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron and said to him, “Up, make us gods who shall go before us. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.”"2 So Aaron said to them, “Take off the rings of gold that are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.”"3 So all the people took off the rings of gold that were in their ears and brought them to Aaron."4 And he received the gold from their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool and made a golden calf. And they said, “These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!”"5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made proclamation and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the LORD.”"6 And they rose up early the next day and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play."7 And the LORD said to Moses, “Go down, for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.”
4000 Years of Christmas: A Gift from the Ages, page 28:
“We do not know its beginning, we do not really know when the Christ child it venerates was born: or the time and place when Christmas was first celebrated: or exactly how it was that, over the centuries, a bishop saint of Asia Minor, and a pagan god of the Germans merged to become Santa Claus. Although the Christmas story centers in the Christ child of Bethlehem, it begins so long before his coming that we find its hero arriving on the scene after more than half of the time of the story has gone by. Christmas began over 4000 years ago, as the festival which renewed the world for another year. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires and probably the yule log; the giving of presents; the carnivals with their floats; their merry makings and clownings; the mummers who sing and play from house to house, the feastings; the church processions with their lights and song all these and more began three centuries before Christ was born. And they celebrated the arrival of a new year."
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Addendum due to the extremely short 5 minute rule again. My complete post
He was born when shepherds were abiding with their flocks at night. That occurred around Jerusalem from early October through April. That was and is the rainy season creating lush grass. Therefore you prove December is not feasible.
PS: I have heard these things for over 50 years. Easter is a corruption of Ishtar, etc. Easter moves around the Julian calender because it is tied to the Jewish calendar denoting Passover. Are we to condemn Easter as well because of where the name comes from?
He was born when shepherds were abiding with their flocks at night. That occurred around Jerusalem from early October through April. That was and is the rainy season creating lush grass. Therefore you prove December is not feasible.
PS: I have heard these things for over 50 years. Easter is a corruption of Ishtar, etc. Easter moves around the Julian calender because it is tied to the Jewish calendar denoting Passover. Are we to condemn Easter as well because of where the name comes from?
Here is a scientific dissertation about when Jesus was born based on the weather around Jerusalem. Posting this for the third time.
http://nabataea.net/birthdate.html
Excerpt from the site.
Here an authority of no mean standing tells us that in the dry summer season the hills are well-nigh bare, affording insufficient pasture, so the shepherds then normally keep their sheep near the town and enfold them at night. But when the winter rains fall, the hills become clothed with grass, and the shepherds, knowing this, take their sheep further a field. Then, because it would make the sheep walk too far to reach the folds every evening, expending energy needlessly, they simply watch their flocks in the fields all night. This seems to be precisely what the evangelist Luke describes:
"And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). The shepherds were not in the town; the flock was not in a fold in or near the town. They were afar in 'the field' or common pasturage. The sheep were taken there only in the winter, when the winter rains brought forth grass on the hills.
Another authority of the highest rank, Dr. Alfred Edersheim, who considers it likely that the angel appeared to the shepherds at the traditional site, states:
"This Migdol Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheep-ground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town" (Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah 1:186).
He surveys (in Appendix VII) all the evidences he is aware of, and while he admits that 'absolute certainty' is impossible as to the exact date of the Nativity, he shows that the known 'factors do not really conflict with the December dating. "There is no adequate reason," he wrote, "for questioning the historical accuracy of this date. The objections generally made rest on grounds which seem to me historically untenable."
Readers of Scripture who possess first-hand knowledge, or have acquaintance with authoritative works on the climate of Palestine, recognize that the arguments against the December date, based upon wintry and snowy conditions, are untenable. The facts have long been known.
As far back as 1863, Smith's Bible Dictionary, under the heading 'Palestine: the Climate', explained the rarity of snow in southern Palestine, while it conceded its more frequent occurrence in the northern parts of the land. The mean temperature at Jerusalem during December is said to run around 47 to 60 degrees F.
It certainly would not hurt sheep to be out at night in that sort of temperature. The Dictionary further states:
"As in the time of our Saviour (Luke 12: 54), the rains come chiefly from the S. or S.W. They commence at the end of October or beginning of November, and continue with greater or less constancy till the end of February or middle of March, and occasionally, though rarely, to the end of April. It is not a heavy continuous rain, so much as a succession of severe showers or storms with intervening periods of fine bright weather, permitting the grain crops to grow and ripen. And although the season is not divided by any entire cessation of rain for a lengthened interval, as some represent, yet there appears to be a diminution in the fall for a few weeks in December and January, after which it begins again, and continues during February and till the conclusion of the season."
It may be noted that the traditional date .for the birth of Christ falls in this period of the diminution of rainfall toward the end of December. The former rains would have produced grass on the hills, and the fine bright weather intervening between the rains, with temperatures averaging 55 degrees F. would be excellent for sheep grazing on the hills east of David's royal city.
http://nabataea.net/birthdate.html
Excerpt from the site.
Here an authority of no mean standing tells us that in the dry summer season the hills are well-nigh bare, affording insufficient pasture, so the shepherds then normally keep their sheep near the town and enfold them at night. But when the winter rains fall, the hills become clothed with grass, and the shepherds, knowing this, take their sheep further a field. Then, because it would make the sheep walk too far to reach the folds every evening, expending energy needlessly, they simply watch their flocks in the fields all night. This seems to be precisely what the evangelist Luke describes:
"And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). The shepherds were not in the town; the flock was not in a fold in or near the town. They were afar in 'the field' or common pasturage. The sheep were taken there only in the winter, when the winter rains brought forth grass on the hills.
Another authority of the highest rank, Dr. Alfred Edersheim, who considers it likely that the angel appeared to the shepherds at the traditional site, states:
"This Migdol Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheep-ground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town" (Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah 1:186).
He surveys (in Appendix VII) all the evidences he is aware of, and while he admits that 'absolute certainty' is impossible as to the exact date of the Nativity, he shows that the known 'factors do not really conflict with the December dating. "There is no adequate reason," he wrote, "for questioning the historical accuracy of this date. The objections generally made rest on grounds which seem to me historically untenable."
Readers of Scripture who possess first-hand knowledge, or have acquaintance with authoritative works on the climate of Palestine, recognize that the arguments against the December date, based upon wintry and snowy conditions, are untenable. The facts have long been known.
As far back as 1863, Smith's Bible Dictionary, under the heading 'Palestine: the Climate', explained the rarity of snow in southern Palestine, while it conceded its more frequent occurrence in the northern parts of the land. The mean temperature at Jerusalem during December is said to run around 47 to 60 degrees F.
It certainly would not hurt sheep to be out at night in that sort of temperature. The Dictionary further states:
"As in the time of our Saviour (Luke 12: 54), the rains come chiefly from the S. or S.W. They commence at the end of October or beginning of November, and continue with greater or less constancy till the end of February or middle of March, and occasionally, though rarely, to the end of April. It is not a heavy continuous rain, so much as a succession of severe showers or storms with intervening periods of fine bright weather, permitting the grain crops to grow and ripen. And although the season is not divided by any entire cessation of rain for a lengthened interval, as some represent, yet there appears to be a diminution in the fall for a few weeks in December and January, after which it begins again, and continues during February and till the conclusion of the season."
It may be noted that the traditional date .for the birth of Christ falls in this period of the diminution of rainfall toward the end of December. The former rains would have produced grass on the hills, and the fine bright weather intervening between the rains, with temperatures averaging 55 degrees F. would be excellent for sheep grazing on the hills east of David's royal city.
I don't care what day is chosen, or if dem durn pagans are doing something on that day............they did not create the day, nor do they own it. The ONLY thing that counts is that when we worship God/Christ, we do so in spirit and in truth.......regardless of the day.
John 4:23)
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
I love to celebrate the Birth of Christ, and choose to do so on December 25th........and the pagans will just have to deal with it. Just like the LGBT crowd stole the rainbow for their symbol. Does that now mean that the Church can never use a rainbow symbol/picture? Nope. We be taking our God given sign back!
Same with Resurrection Sunday...............
The ONLY way folks do wrong is if they put the materialistic things of their celebration AHEAD/ABOVE God/Christ. And this isn't only true about Holidays. It is true about everything. House, car, clothes, any material possessions! God first in all things. And there won't be any worries............
(my thoughts...........and have a great Thanksgiving, and a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year, and don't forget to celebrate Resurrection Sunday)
John 4:23)
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
I love to celebrate the Birth of Christ, and choose to do so on December 25th........and the pagans will just have to deal with it. Just like the LGBT crowd stole the rainbow for their symbol. Does that now mean that the Church can never use a rainbow symbol/picture? Nope. We be taking our God given sign back!
Same with Resurrection Sunday...............
The ONLY way folks do wrong is if they put the materialistic things of their celebration AHEAD/ABOVE God/Christ. And this isn't only true about Holidays. It is true about everything. House, car, clothes, any material possessions! God first in all things. And there won't be any worries............
(my thoughts...........and have a great Thanksgiving, and a Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year, and don't forget to celebrate Resurrection Sunday)
There is a problem with resurrection Sunday. The tomb was empty on Sunday morning. He was crucified during Passover. Passover week begins and ends with an annual Sabbath. It takes a the Sabbath in question question was the second Sabbath. He was put in the tomb in the late afternoon. Therefore the sign of who he was is the sign of Jonah. As Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 nights and days so Jesus was in the tomb for 3 nights and days. Rising in the late afternoon. That would make it the weekly Sabbath afternoon at the latest. Going backwards buried Wednesday late afternoon at the latest. That would make the Passover Sabbath be Thursday and burial Wednesday late afternoon at the latest.
Too many people ignore there are annual Sabbaths.
Too many people ignore there are annual Sabbaths.