The Abomination of Desolation

Hevosmies · Oct 1, 2018

I completely agree friend.

Do you believe that Church = Israel? Meaning you go back to the O.T. and you see a text about Jerusalem or Israel and say "Thats the church!"

Not asking to start a debate or anything, just wanting to hear where you come from. Reason I asked that specific questions is I use biblehub alot and it has free commentaries from men in the 1800s mostly, Albert Barnes, John Gill, Benson, etc. ANd those guys tend to view all the O.T. prophecies about Israel as something about church.
Like a verse can say something about Jerusalem's superiority, and they will comment on it saying "The church here is...." "people flocking to the gospel church.."

I find that interestng.

trofimus · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Yes, I see the OT Israel as an image/shadow of the Church. Like Jerusalem was an image of heaven, like sabbath was an image of peace in Christ etc.

I do not say that events in the OT did not happen. But I see those events, prophecies etc to be metaphorically about the Church. I think its how the Church saw it till the 19th/20th century, as you recognized in commentaries.

Hevosmies · Oct 1, 2018

trofimus said:

Thanks. Can you give me an example where Jerusalem was an image of heaven?

How do you interpret these verses, are they about the church, and if they are, in what way?

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Jer 33:19 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Jer 33:20 Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
Jer 33:21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.

Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Eze 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.

I respectfully disagree with your approach, but I still respect it because of the historicity of it. Many great men of God were "in your shoes" so to speak in this topic. I mean the reformers and the early church fathers, men who gave their life for the faith many of them.
I would embrace that view if someone could show to me from the N.T. something that hints to it. (Bring it if you got it)

KJV1611 · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Not trying to be smart here lol, but is this true today and for the last 2000 years?

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

No one has sat upon the literal throne of David nor have the priests been offering literal burnt offerings for the last 2000 years.

Hevosmies · Oct 1, 2018

KJV1611 said:

Not trying to be smart here lol, but is this true today and for the last 2000 years?

Jer 33:17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Jer 33:18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

No one has sat upon the literal throne of David nor have the priests been offering literal burnt offerings for the last 2000 years.

What does it mean then? What alternative do you suggest?

trofimus · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Too many hard questions, I am not a trained theologian, so my theology is not perfectly systematic and I do not have answers to all OT prophecies

I read early apostolic fathers and I simply got the general idea. I do not have any systematic commentary to all the OT... but biblehub.com could probably help.

To see the principle in the NT, I think that Galatians and Hebrews are the main pillars of it. The epistle of Barnabas is about symbolism in the OT, too. It goes to details. Though not inspired, its a witness of the early church view of the OT symbolism.

I think those verses are about church and spiritual realities (I did not find the Jer text in Septuagint, though...). I think that biblehub commentaries are OK.

Jerusalem
Jerusalem in the Old Testament. Salem. The first occurrence of Jerusalem is in Joshua 10:1, but an allusion to Jerusalem appears in Genesis 14:18 with the reference to Melchizedek, king of Salem. Poetic parallel construction in Psalm 76:2 ( Heb 76:3 ) equates Salem with Zion. Theologically, the Canaanite city of Shalem has become the biblical city of Shalom, Peace. Prophetically, Isaiah spoke of the Prince of Peace (Shalom) who wouldreign on David's throne (in Jerusalem), a reference full of messianic portent...

New Testament Christians held the view that there was acity with foundations whose architect and builder was God ( Heb 11:10 ). Further, this was a heavenly Jerusalem "Mount Zion, … the city of the livingGod" ( 12:22 ).The population would consist of those whose names are written in heaven. The eschatological view of Jerusalem that developed among Christians, aside from that of Judaism (cf. Isa60:14 ), looked forward to the fulfillment of the promise of the kingdom in the establishment of a New Jerusalem that would come "down out of heaven from God" ( Rev 21:2 ). This cityis described in contrast to the city allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, that is, the earthly Jerusalem, "where also their Lord was crucified" ( Rev 11:8 ).
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/jerusalem/

Hevosmies · Oct 1, 2018

trofimus said:

Really? Septuagint doesnt have those verses at all? Or it says something different? can you tell me what it says?
I dont know of any bible translation that uses septuagint as a basis for O.T. translation, which is why im asking. Interesting!

trofimus · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

I did not find the text in Jer 33, Jer 32 or Jer 34... I have no search engine, so I am not sure if its somewhere else. I searched for the word "David".

Maybe you will be more lucky:

https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=44&page=33

KJV1611 · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

I believe Christ is sitting on that throne now and those verses refer to spiritual things and not the literal throne of David nor literal sacrifices. If they are literal then the verses are wrong because no one is sitting on the literal throne of David right now. How do you see it?

Locutus · Oct 1, 2018

It says right here that Christ was raised to sit on David's throne:

(Acts 2:30 KJV) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

So David knew it was not to be a physical earthly throne.

trofimus · Oct 1, 2018

KJV1611 said:

Yes, a good point... if its literal, then its empty for 2,000 years.

KJV1611 · Oct 1, 2018

Tina2018 said:

I think 2 questions have to be answered to understand what the abomination of desolation is and if it's happened yet.

1) What abomination was so bad that it made something desolate.
2) Who or what becomes desolate.

My opinion is the Jews rejecting and killing Jesus was the abomination and Israel as a nation was made desolate.

Hevosmies · Oct 1, 2018

trofimus said:

Oh yeah about this! Did you know that for the first centuries historical premillennialism was the main eschatological view held in the Church? (Which is what I hold to)

Its premillennialism, but its more of a "christianized" millennium. Nonetheless its the kingdom of Israel restored, under the christian rule of the jewish Messiah Lord Jesus.
The biggest difference is that its not separate entities like in dispensational premillennialism (which is newer), but one people of God, united under the Messiah.

trofimus · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

I have not noticed anything like that in the writings... any refererence?

I know that about year 1000 AD, there was a movement called chiliasm, awaiting the end of the world and that the 1000 years was the millenium of the Church. But thats probably all I heard. Then the Great schism came (division of the Church to eastern and western) so I can imagine how interesting those times were for them.

Nehemiah6 · Oct 1, 2018

KJV1611 said:

It's a good thing that this is simply an opinion, because it is completely off-base. If this were true then Jesus would not have pointed to something else when He said this:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) (Mt 24:15)

The "holy place" is within the temple at Jerusalem, and since Christ had already predicted the destruction of the existing second temple, He was prophesying about a FUTURE third temple with a holy place to be desecrated by the Antichrist, with this abominable idol made in order to worship Satan and the Beast (the Antichrist).

And the desolations which would be triggered are the judgments of the Great Tribulation. Therefore the Abomination of Desolation refers to "the image of the beast" (repeated four times below) :

REVELATION 13
4 And they worshipped the dragon [SATAN] which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast [THE ANTICHRIST], saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?...

11 And I beheld another beast [THE FALSE PROPHET] coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon...

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, [THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION] which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed...

Hevosmies · Oct 1, 2018

trofimus said:

Here are a couple:

Tertullian said (in Against Marcion): "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem…Of the heavenly kingdom this is the process: After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts, there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment."

Justin Martyr said (in Dialogue with Trypho ): “But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.”

http://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch008.htm <- here is a good link with quotes and sources. I like specifically how Irenaeus predicted spiritualization of prophecy: "“If, however, any shall endeavor to allegorize prophecies of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points.”
“If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just.”

But one of the earliest is the Didache, which im sure you know of, its a very early document and it hints at a millennium because it says " And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;" (this would line up with the first resurrection of Rev20)

Locutus · Oct 1, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

This is a totally bogus dispensational delusion.

This makes much more sense:

Adam Clarke's commentary:

The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, ( Luke 21:20, Luke 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins.

The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

trofimus · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Here are a couple:

Tertullian said (in Against Marcion): "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem…Of the heavenly kingdom this is the process: After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts, there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment."

Justin Martyr said (in Dialogue with Trypho ): “But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.”

http://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch008.htm <- here is a good link with quotes and sources. I like specifically how Irenaeus predicted spiritualization of prophecy: "“If, however, any shall endeavor to allegorize prophecies of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points.”
“If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just.”

But one of the earliest is the Didache, which im sure you know of, its a very early document and it hints at a millennium because it says " And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;" (this would line up with the first resurrection of Rev20)

Do you have chapters: verses so that I do not have to read all the writings to find it?

Its not even on the website you recommended.

Hevosmies · Oct 1, 2018

trofimus said:

You can find them by googling the statements themselves, they direct you straight to the books. thats how I found them.

Here is a link with footnotes at the bottom to the sources: http://www.danielsecomb.com/premillennialism-in-patristic-church-history/#_ftn3

trofimus · Oct 1, 2018

Hevosmies said:

Ok its midnight here... I will look at it tomorrow.

The Abomination of Desolation

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