The Abomination of Desolation

[KJV1611]

It's a good thing that this is simply an opinion, because it is completely off-base. If this were true then Jesus would not have pointed to something else when He said this:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) (Mt 24:15)

The "holy place" is within the temple at Jerusalem, and since Christ had already predicted the destruction of the existing second temple, He was prophesying about a FUTURE third temple with a holy place to be desecrated by the Antichrist, with this abominable idol made in order to worship Satan and the Beast (the Antichrist).

And the desolations which would be triggered are the judgments of the Great Tribulation. Therefore the Abomination of Desolation refers to "the image of the beast" (repeated four times below) :

REVELATION 13
4 And they worshipped the dragon [SATAN] which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast [THE ANTICHRIST], saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?...

11 And I beheld another beast [THE FALSE PROPHET] coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon...

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, [THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION] which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed...

Do you have any New Testament scriptures that show that the temple is anything other than the body of the believer? I don't know of any but I could be wrong.

As far as I know, the shadows are done and the blood of Jesus was shed, the true temple is us and no one is going to start sacrificing animals again.

 

[Alertandawake]

There would have to be a motive to have billions of people willingly have themselves implanted with technology that changes them into zombies.
I can't think of one.

Actually, I think the motive why people would do this would be for very simple reasons, convenience (and yes there are people who willingly want to get microchip implants because it is easier to wave your hand to pay for goods over a scanner, rather than take the money out of your pocket), be part of society.

Reality is, we already are seeing large scale of people mostly in the category of zombies in this generation because of how they been taught at school, and including parents who don't do their job properly.

Many young ones today are really glued to their technological devices, it is like the devices control them, like that can't live without it.

But the simple motive and reason to accept to be part of a brainwashed and totalitarian society when the time comes, will be for this simple reason - money.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The abomination that maketh desolate is a sign for the Jews in the land of Israel to run when they see its system set up, which according to scriptures, the whole faithless world will adore (Revelation 13:8). That means billions of people.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus did not say it was a system, He called it what it was. An abomination (idol) which makes desolate.

Interpret it for what it is, try not to change the meaning

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The woman in Rev 12 are the faithful in Christ throughout the world who flee when the dragon makes his appearance through the power his vests in the beast (Revelation 13:2).
They are fed with the spirit of God for a time, times, and half a time (Rev 12:14) constituting 1,260 days (Rev 12:6).
Daniel 7:25 describes this event as a time, times, and the dividing of time in which the beasts mouth wears out the saints.
This means the woman in Revelation 12 is another description for the saints in Daniel 7.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The woman is Isreal. Her offspring is the church.

Once again, your destroying the purpose of prophesy

 

[KJV1611]

The woman is Isreal. Her offspring is the church.

Once again, your destroying the purpose of prophesy

How do figure anyone other than Heavenly Jerusalem gave birth to the church? Do you have verses that make you believe Israel gave birth to the church?

 

[Deade]

Jesus did not say it was a system, He called it what it was. An abomination (idol) which makes desolate.

Interpret it for what it is, try not to change the meaning

You are quite right EG. If the Catholic Church gains control of the temple mount, you can bet they will raise some idolatrias statue (Mary? - Jesus?). Being religious in nature makes it an abomination. The fact they pray to it make it desolate (empty).

The woman is Isreal. Her offspring is the church.

Once again, your destroying the purpose of prophesy

Wait, the woman is not Israel. I always believed the woman of Rev. 12 was the church. Sometimes the obvious is the right answer. As for the preterist trying to take over this thread, I think you are badly outnumbered.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are quite right EG. If the Catholic Church gains control of the temple mount, you can bet they will raise some idolatrias statue (Mary? - Jesus?). Being religious in nature makes it an abomination. The fact they pray to it make it desolate (empty).



Wait, the woman is not Israel. I always believed the woman of Rev. 12 was the church. Sometimes the obvious is the right answer. As for the preterist trying to take over this thread, I think you are badly outnumbered. View attachment 188781

The church did not give birth to itself. Christ gave birth to it. The woman gave birth to christ. Thats Israel.

I am mixed as to what role the catholic church has. I wonder if she is babylon hersef.

 

[iamsoandso]

This is a totally bogus dispensational delusion.

This makes much more sense:
/
Adam Clarke's commentary:

The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, ( Luke 21:20, Luke 21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins.

The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Again,,,here's Josephus war's 2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html read it this time and tell me if the Jews received the mark(of Rome) or if Josephus said that they had no Piety for Caesar and revolted instead.

Those Jews absolutly refused to bow to Rome and "revolted", better known as "Jewish wars/revolt" which means that they absolutely did not receive the "Mark of the beast"...

And then tell us how someone setting up this at the end of the war qualifies the scripture where the Christians are told "when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel..." that they should then flee to the mountains,,,,lol, AFTER THE WAR!!!,,,,

 

[Deade]

The church did not give birth to itself. Christ gave birth to it. The woman gave birth to christ. Thats Israel.

I am mixed as to what role the catholic church has. I wonder if she is babylon hersef.

Yes, she is Babylon and the little horn of the beast that subdues three horns (kings) when it comes up. In your first sentence above, I am confused by what you are saying: Woman = Israel or Woman = Church Also: Christ = Israel or Christ = Church. I never heard of that connection before (Christ = Church). Define what is Israel again.

 

[iamsoandso]

lol, see the little hole? dig in it and look at the animals they have to worrship and the wemon who weep for Tammuz...

 

[Locutus]

Again,,,here's Josephus war's 2 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-2.html read it this time and tell me if the Jews received the mark(of Rome) or if Josephus said that they had no Piety for Caesar and revolted instead.

Those Jews absolutly refused to bow to Rome and "revolted", better known as "Jewish wars/revolt" which means that they absolutely did not receive the "Mark of the beast"...

And then tell us how someone setting up this at the end of the war qualifies the scripture where the Christians are told "when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel..." that they should then flee to the mountains,,,,lol, AFTER THE WAR!!!,,,,

Hello again Markus

This thread is about the abomination and when it would appear.

Just take a Luke at the following and we have a direct correspondence with what JC said in Matthew:

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:21 KJV) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Matthew:

(Mat 24:15 KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,

(Mat 24:16 KJV) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

It's should be more than obvious that Jesus is speaking about the same event - ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies and shall see the abomination of desolation.

"flee into the mountains" in both cases.

We know the time Luke spoke of is when "the desolation" took place in the war of 66 - 70AD.

So it is upon all the futurist "theologies" for the appearing of the abomination to PROVE the account in Luke is a different time period than Matthew's account - which we know they can't do without contradicting the scripture.

No flees on me boyo

 

[iamsoandso]

Hello again Markus View attachment 188783

This thread is about the abomination and when it would appear.

Just take a Luke at the following and we have a direct correspondence with what JC said in Matthew:

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

(Luke 21:21 KJV) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Matthew:

(Mat 24:15 KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,

(Mat 24:16 KJV) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

It's should be more than obvious that Jesus is speaking about the same event - ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies and shall see the abomination of desolation.

"flee into the mountains" in both cases.

We know the time Luke spoke of is when "the desolation" took place in the war of 66 - 70AD.

So it is upon all the futurist "theologies" for the appearing of the abomination to PROVE the account in Luke is a different time period than Matthew's account - which we know they can't do without contradicting the scripture.

No flees on me boyo View attachment 188786

lol, well you did change from "Dispensatioal delusion" in post #117 to "futurist theologies" in this one so chose your directions well.

Why on earth would any futurist(seeing your acknowledging change in camps) even need to prove what you said in post #117 are not you who we are waiting for in providing it's proof?

We could skip a step from camp to camp if you like though,,,here we go

In Romans !3:1-10 and 1Peter2:13-25 the apostles stated to the then Christians to honor the authority then over them(Romans 13:1) as appointed by God,,, now imagine as you say this Rome you speak of setting this abomination up at the end of the war is the very beast,,,,would that not mean,if your correct,,, that the apostles advice is to receive Romes mark by seeing it as appointed by God and buying and selling/paying tribute(Romans 13:6)?

 

[Locutus]

Markus, markus, markus - I just demolished dispensationalist and any other futurist "theologies" that posit the abomination in any other century than the first in one fell swoop with 4 lines of Jesus' statements.

I ain't gonna get into your "if" and "imagine" scenarios as we've done the dance before with your two left feet.

 

[iamsoandso]

Markus, markus, markus - I just demolished dispensationalist and any other futurist "theologies" that posit the abomination in any other century than the first in one fell swoop with 4 lines of Jesus' statements.

I ain't gonna get into your "if" and "imagine" scenarios as we've done the dance before with your two left feet. View attachment 188794

oh, thanks for the heads up we might have missed it without your sales tactics...

 

[LaJolla]

Would be rather refreshing to be edified instead of being splashed with vain tones pretending 'they know better than others'. Learn humility if you can, please. NONE IS RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE. AND GOD HAS LAID ON HIM THE PUNISHMENT WE DESERVE.

The abomination of desolation was the topic here. In an age of deception and spin, only by the Light of the Holy Spirit will we see what is happening. Egos and 'know best' people blow smoke in your eyes.

pray hard.

 

[trofimus]

Here are a couple:

Tertullian said (in Against Marcion): "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem…Of the heavenly kingdom this is the process: After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts, there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment."

Justin Martyr said (in Dialogue with Trypho ): “But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.”

http://cicministry.org/scholarly/sch008.htm <- here is a good link with quotes and sources. I like specifically how Irenaeus predicted spiritualization of prophecy: "“If, however, any shall endeavor to allegorize prophecies of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points.”
“If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just.”


But one of the earliest is the Didache, which im sure you know of, its a very early document and it hints at a millennium because it says " And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;" (this would line up with the first resurrection of Rev20)

Didaché 16:3-8
For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate;
16:4 and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world.
16:5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself.
16:6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead
16:7 -- not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;
16:8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.

I think its very similar to Paul's words in Thessalonians. That the dead in Christ will rise up first and meet him in heaven. I do not see any premillenialism in this... Notice, that the resurrection of Christians is to meet him in clouds exactly as Paul says.

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80
Yes, this one is a good witness of early Christian-centered premillenialism, IMHO.
He believed that Jerusalem will be rebuilt then, not before like we have it today. Then he continues that Christians will be resurrected and live in Jerusalem for 1000 years and after it the rest of men will be resurrected for judgement.
You are right that his view was about Christians only. Israel, temple, sacrifices or any revival among Jews is not mentioned at all.

Tertullian, Against Marcion, Book 3, chapter 25
Very interesting.
Tertullian believed that Jerusalem will come down from heaven and claimed that the city was seein in the sky for 40 days by various people in Judea. The Church will live in that city for 1000 years and then they will be moved to heaven.
He also believes that Christians will rise in various moments of the millenium. I have never seen this before.

"It would be tedious to state at length how the figurative interpretation is spiritually applicable to Christ and His church...it would be superfluous for this reason, that our inquiry relates to what is promised in heaven, not on earth. But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, let down from heaven, Revelation 21:2 which the apostle also calls our mother from above.."

"After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment: we shall then be changed in a moment into the substance of angels, even by the investiture of an incorruptible nature, and so be removed to that kingdom in heaven..."

Its quite a long chapter and there are some things I do not understand, probably because Christians in those days used different perspectives than we do today.

---------

You were right that that some known people in the early church obviously believed in a literal millenium for church, in heavenly Jerusalem descending on earth for 1000 years. So, I should probably consider this as a real possibility

Nothing that seems similar to today's Israel/3rd temple/Jewish/sacrificial/sionistic millenium taught in some churches, however.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, she is Babylon and the little horn of the beast that subdues three horns (kings) when it comes up. In your first sentence above, I am confused by what you are saying: Woman = Israel or Woman = Church Also: Christ = Israel or Christ = Church. I never heard of that connection before (Christ = Church). Define what is Israel again.

Israel are the children of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, as paul said, to whome the promises were given, to whome came the “seed”

the Church as we know it came from Christ through his death burial and ressurection.

notice in the passage, The woman is protected, while they run to the hills as Christ told them too, while her offspring are persecuted severely.

 

[luigi]

Actually, I think the motive why people would do this would be for very simple reasons, convenience (and yes there are people who willingly want to get microchip implants because it is easier to wave your hand to pay for goods over a scanner, rather than take the money out of your pocket), be part of society.

Reality is, we already are seeing large scale of people mostly in the category of zombies in this generation because of how they been taught at school, and including parents who don't do their job properly.

Many young ones today are really glued to their technological devices, it is like the devices control them, like that can't live without it.

But the simple motive and reason to accept to be part of a brainwashed and totalitarian society when the time comes, will be for this simple reason - money.

I can agree with some of your perspectives; especially with today's generation being a lot more slave to technology than my generation.
And it looks like it's getting worse according to many reports about kids and their tech games and phones.
I think the Word in Revelation 9:20 describes these as the works of mans hands which mankind will refuse to cease from worshiping/adoring.
I think todays technological wonders are the lying wonders people fall victim to in 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[luigi]

The woman is Isreal. Her offspring is the church.

Once again, your destroying the purpose of prophesy

Was Jesus relating to the Jews who are currently living in the land of Israel and who do not believe in Him, to flee when they saw the abomination that maketh desolate?
Why would the Lord address a nation not called by His name, who do not believe in Him to flee; as the vast majority of Jews would not even be aware of His warning, having never read the New Testament?
I recognize the Lords remarks in regards to all believers throughout the world to flee when they see the abomination that maketh desolate stand where it ought not.
This fits very nicely with Revelation 12:14 & 7 where the woman flees into the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time (1,260 days) and is spiritually fed; which according to Daniel 7:25 represent the saints.
With these correlations in scriptures, I then recognize the Lord is addressing saints to flee from the beasts system which is being set up, and is not addressing the faithless who will adore the beasts system (Revelation 13:8).


Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Revelation:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[KJV1611]

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus said that everything mentioned in Luke 21 must be fulfilled before the generation alive at that time passed away. This being so how could anything mentioned in Luke 21 be happening 2000 years later?