What no coment on the definitions given for Mat.5:17? Just asking as theypull the fullthing together, rather devide it. You have also failed to explain how, when we are told, "Think not that I have came to destroy", can we now think that is what He did? You have yet to answer this question, care to?
What laws given in the OT should be tossed out?
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Yes, it sure would.
Leviticus 1:1-9
1 And the Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5 And he shall kill the bullock before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.
The Lord didn't speak to the whole congregation, but He spoke to Moses. That makes it law.
Not one Jot or one Tittle will fall from the Law, until all is fulfilled.
Did the Lord Jesus forget to say "except sacrifice"?
In your mind a 2000+yr "suspension" of the law doesn't count as any jots or tittles falling from the law?
What about Matthew 5:23-24??? The Lord Jesus didn't know that wasn't part of the law? He didn't know it was about to be "suspended" for the next 2000+ years?
I've seen a lot of legalists twist scripture. But I've never seen any of them attempt to throw out the entire book of Leviticus as not part of the law. Do you really have a 12 year PHD in biblical theology or were you just teasing me?
Haha. Good one. You got me.
Leviticus 17:1-5
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, saying,
3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
Yes, it sure would.
Leviticus 1:1-9
1 And the Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord.
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
5 And he shall kill the bullock before the Lord: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.
7 And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:
8 And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:
9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord.
The Lord didn't speak to the whole congregation, but He spoke to Moses. That makes it law.
Not one Jot or one Tittle will fall from the Law, until all is fulfilled.
Did the Lord Jesus forget to say "except sacrifice"?
In your mind a 2000+yr "suspension" of the law doesn't count as any jots or tittles falling from the law?
What about Matthew 5:23-24??? The Lord Jesus didn't know that wasn't part of the law? He didn't know it was about to be "suspended" for the next 2000+ years?
I've seen a lot of legalists twist scripture. But I've never seen any of them attempt to throw out the entire book of Leviticus as not part of the law. Do you really have a 12 year PHD in biblical theology or were you just teasing me?
Haha. Good one. You got me.
Leviticus 17:1-5
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, saying,
3 What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5 To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
I stand by what I say, after all it comes from the WORD not me. As you seem to have over looked that to offer a sacrifice now would be sin, when there is no Temple. You may also need to think about the FACT that HaShem said He didn't want them.
Now back to Mat. 5:17 How is it that you can find in one passage 2 statements that stand in conrast with one another? You still haven't answer that.
Now back to Mat. 5:17 How is it that you can find in one passage 2 statements that stand in conrast with one another? You still haven't answer that.
Hashem may have said he didn't want them.
But the Lord God Commanded ancient Israel to sacrifice animals so that blood could cover their sins.
When God commands people to do things, it is Law. For you to try and use other scripture to try and negate that is a dis-honest use of scripture.
Is Hosea 6:6 what you are trying to use to negate all of Leviticus as Law? Seriously?
But the Lord God Commanded ancient Israel to sacrifice animals so that blood could cover their sins.
When God commands people to do things, it is Law. For you to try and use other scripture to try and negate that is a dis-honest use of scripture.
Is Hosea 6:6 what you are trying to use to negate all of Leviticus as Law? Seriously?
Yes. I have an answer. I was just trying to settle one thing at a time.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
We'll take the first part first.
The Lord said He did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets.
Of course not. Its the Law that is the Schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. And it is the prophets that prophesy of Him.
Every jot and every tittle is designed to bring us to the end of ourselves. So that we can know that we CAN'T fulfill all the law on our own. We can't be perfect and righteous like God is Perfect and Righteous no matter how hard we try.
Now for the second part.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
The Lord says here that He has come to fulfill the Law. And that is what He has done. But we don't understand this until we come to Him to receive Rest and Salvation. We are poor in spirit. Meaning we don't understand spiritual things that well. We don't understand them at all before coming to Christ.
When we understand, by revelation, that the Lord Jesus has fulfilled the Law we understand that we are no longer under it. We have received Rest from our work at the law and it is no longer our schoolmaster. The law has done its job. It has brought us to Christ.
There is no longer a reason for us to rehearse/pretend that our work at the law makes us righteous in any way. We have been to Christ and we KNOW that our Righteousness comes from Him.
Paul says it more simply than I do.
Galatians 3:23-26
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
We'll take the first part first.
The Lord said He did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets.
Of course not. Its the Law that is the Schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. And it is the prophets that prophesy of Him.
Every jot and every tittle is designed to bring us to the end of ourselves. So that we can know that we CAN'T fulfill all the law on our own. We can't be perfect and righteous like God is Perfect and Righteous no matter how hard we try.
Now for the second part.
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
The Lord says here that He has come to fulfill the Law. And that is what He has done. But we don't understand this until we come to Him to receive Rest and Salvation. We are poor in spirit. Meaning we don't understand spiritual things that well. We don't understand them at all before coming to Christ.
When we understand, by revelation, that the Lord Jesus has fulfilled the Law we understand that we are no longer under it. We have received Rest from our work at the law and it is no longer our schoolmaster. The law has done its job. It has brought us to Christ.
There is no longer a reason for us to rehearse/pretend that our work at the law makes us righteous in any way. We have been to Christ and we KNOW that our Righteousness comes from Him.
Paul says it more simply than I do.
Galatians 3:23-26
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
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So once more you find that the Law is valid. Thank you. Not the first time you confirmed that.
Still as I pointed out we are to do our best to imitate Yeshua. 1Cor. 11:1. How can we do this if do not walk in the Laws of HaShem. Oh just so you know, HaShem is the Hebrew word used for God. So trying to make it seem as though we are talking of 2 different beings is pointless.I forgot that in my last reply, sorry.
Still as I pointed out we are to do our best to imitate Yeshua. 1Cor. 11:1. How can we do this if do not walk in the Laws of HaShem. Oh just so you know, HaShem is the Hebrew word used for God. So trying to make it seem as though we are talking of 2 different beings is pointless.I forgot that in my last reply, sorry.
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The law, with all of its penalties, was given to people because they had no possible way to understand God at all. Unfortunately, the god of this world came into power at the same time of the fall of man in the garden. That's when the death sentences began with no possible way to remedy the situation. All laws were carnal ways to control people who could not comprehend the way of God. The laws were penalties in every way, (and every one) that enforced a death sentence for every infraction. Every one of them induced fear if breached, and the loss of communion with God due to the shame and guilt. Jesus would not have removed the curses of the law unless it was needed. 2nd Corinthians 3-13,14 Moses could not even envision an end of that which is abolished. The WHOLE system has been replaced. Jesus has always been loving to mankind, men just never understood that the Devil kept feeding fearful penalties for breaking any of the least of them. Hebrews 10-8,9 God takes away the first so that he can establish the second. Jesus was put to death because He did not conform to the methods of old. Forgiveness for sin is now the new standard. We have gone from conditional love to unconditional. Fear is gone as OT commanded us to do. 1st John 4-18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear creates torment. The old testament is a place of fear, in totality. There is not one there which would not induce fear if not followed. Following God out of love fills in the gaps that force could not remedy. Love inspires us to be better that we can be with a whip at our back. It explains the depths of the spirit which could only be explained a few who could understand the concept. Jesus has given us new commands which are simple enough for children to understand. Don't get upset when your favorite OT methods are challenged.
I'll just take your word for it to make things more simple. Just know that I'm not convinced.
You seem to take certain scriptures and place a great deal of weight upon them and then INCORRECTLY use them to negate a lot of other scripture.
In 1 Corinthians 11:1 Paul is saying to follow him. He is not saying to follow your interpretation of what you think "Yeshua" did or didn't do.
He is DEFINITELY NOT saying to go back to working at the law like you are trying to imply.
And you never did answer my last question. Were you trying to use Hosea 6:6 to say that Leviticus is not Law?
You seem to take certain scriptures and place a great deal of weight upon them and then INCORRECTLY use them to negate a lot of other scripture.
In 1 Corinthians 11:1 Paul is saying to follow him. He is not saying to follow your interpretation of what you think "Yeshua" did or didn't do.
He is DEFINITELY NOT saying to go back to working at the law like you are trying to imply.
And you never did answer my last question. Were you trying to use Hosea 6:6 to say that Leviticus is not Law?
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A history on the sacrificial system. The first one we read of is in Gen. Chapter 4. To this point not once does the Word tell us HaShem asked for them, commanded them, or hinted of them. So when we read Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
We must keep in mind that offerings/sacrifices were given by them before they got to Sinai. As can be seen in Exo 18:12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.
Now if you look closely at Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. You will see that HaShem said IF, not when. In this same chapter, you will note that it is to be done in the Tabernacle/Temple only. This is why in Lev. 17:1-5 we given the commandment that if one kills an offering out side of the Temple, blood will be imputed unto that man. This is a law that is binding, however it isn’t a commandment to give a sacrifice, just one that regulates how they are to be done.
Once more no temple, means that to offer a sacrifice would be sin at this time. It doesn’t negate any part of Levitical Law rather upholds it. As I stated, once the 3rd Temple is in place, you can expect to sacrifices resume. So you see, HaShem never gave a commandment to give any sacrifice other than the ones ordained in the feast, and the vow of a Nazarite. He did give guide lines as to how to offer them IF a man was to do so.
As for going back to OT times when a person was seen as righteous by their faith, not much has changed there. So that would make that point mutt would it not? After all, Abraham simply believed and what happened? Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. So a person even then was counted righteous by faith, not by works or what sacrifice they gave.
I hope this cleared that up, as I in no way intended for my words to convey what you glemed from them. Though I know I was clear, it seems that like many others I have had this discussion with, they wish to twist my words to mean what they hope they do. Not saying you are doing this, though if the past is any indication, it looks that way.
We must keep in mind that offerings/sacrifices were given by them before they got to Sinai. As can be seen in Exo 18:12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.
Now if you look closely at Lev 1:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock. You will see that HaShem said IF, not when. In this same chapter, you will note that it is to be done in the Tabernacle/Temple only. This is why in Lev. 17:1-5 we given the commandment that if one kills an offering out side of the Temple, blood will be imputed unto that man. This is a law that is binding, however it isn’t a commandment to give a sacrifice, just one that regulates how they are to be done.
Once more no temple, means that to offer a sacrifice would be sin at this time. It doesn’t negate any part of Levitical Law rather upholds it. As I stated, once the 3rd Temple is in place, you can expect to sacrifices resume. So you see, HaShem never gave a commandment to give any sacrifice other than the ones ordained in the feast, and the vow of a Nazarite. He did give guide lines as to how to offer them IF a man was to do so.
As for going back to OT times when a person was seen as righteous by their faith, not much has changed there. So that would make that point mutt would it not? After all, Abraham simply believed and what happened? Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. So a person even then was counted righteous by faith, not by works or what sacrifice they gave.
I hope this cleared that up, as I in no way intended for my words to convey what you glemed from them. Though I know I was clear, it seems that like many others I have had this discussion with, they wish to twist my words to mean what they hope they do. Not saying you are doing this, though if the past is any indication, it looks that way.
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Hebrews 10-4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin. Vs 3- But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. Who will ever believe again that this wasn't true in the old testament too. These types of things will never be added to us again. Ask yourself where they came from originally. Jesus is originator of final and complete truth. We don't need to go back to the mortuary to find life there.
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Fortunately, Jesus has made a way of escape for those in the OT who could not understand the higher ways of Christ. A man is only held by conscience when he understands a principle. It is the intent of our hearts that either saves us or condemns us. Forgiveness is the main remedy that we have to keep us from all negative penalties. Jesus didn't even need to carry around scrolls to condemn anyone. He wanted us to understand just a few simple concepts that we should know to make our life at peace. No longer our we obligated to assemble huge piles of difficult matter to sort through. Now we have direct inspiration of the spirit of love to make even wiser decisions. Without the spirits help we can't interpret any scriptures with success. Why bother trying to find your life in the old. It is like trying to contain the new spirit in the old skins. It just isn't possible.
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In class we did an experiment. I thought it was nuts at first, yet for the grade I worked through it. We went through the NT and removed ever passage that hintewd at, was a direct quote from, or held teaching found in the OT. What was left was nothing more than a hand full of scripture.
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David confirms this, when he in his psalm concerning his grace sins said “sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire”
Today is no different, these people demandin gwe fall under law can not comprehend the fact moses stated a fact. Whoever does not confirm and obey every word (every jot and tittle per say” of the law is under a curse. Which is exactly what Paul tried to show us in Gal, That everyone who is under the law is under a curse, Because no one living has fulfilled that aspect of the Law.
They also do not understand, the law could not make us righteous anyway, It was not given for that reason. The law says do not commit adultry. It does not (as Jesus showed in his sermon on the mount) tell us every possible way we could break that law. Or what we can do, or give us instructions on HOW not to break the law. it is just a guideline, Given to PROVE to all men they are sinners, for all have sinned and fall short. How do we know? Because of the law.
Those trying to push law are pushing for you to be self centered. To focus on self. And how well you obey the law. What does this cause? Well see the religious jews and how they acted. And what they did when Grace was preached. They hated it, They boasted of their good works, They boasted of how righteous they were, and they continually walked around and judged sinners. All one has to do is look at legalism today, and they see the people and churches acting really no different. And when grace is preached. Watch out!
Today is no different, these people demandin gwe fall under law can not comprehend the fact moses stated a fact. Whoever does not confirm and obey every word (every jot and tittle per say” of the law is under a curse. Which is exactly what Paul tried to show us in Gal, That everyone who is under the law is under a curse, Because no one living has fulfilled that aspect of the Law.
They also do not understand, the law could not make us righteous anyway, It was not given for that reason. The law says do not commit adultry. It does not (as Jesus showed in his sermon on the mount) tell us every possible way we could break that law. Or what we can do, or give us instructions on HOW not to break the law. it is just a guideline, Given to PROVE to all men they are sinners, for all have sinned and fall short. How do we know? Because of the law.
Those trying to push law are pushing for you to be self centered. To focus on self. And how well you obey the law. What does this cause? Well see the religious jews and how they acted. And what they did when Grace was preached. They hated it, They boasted of their good works, They boasted of how righteous they were, and they continually walked around and judged sinners. All one has to do is look at legalism today, and they see the people and churches acting really no different. And when grace is preached. Watch out!
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One should expect this really. Since most of the NT was written trying to fight people trying ti add works of the law to Grace. And also. Since the OT was a symbol, or teacher. It also shows that we need to understand what it taught, and understanding it will help people not only fully come to christ. But be more secure in what Christ did and is doing.
No one is saying the study of the law should be stopped. We are apposed trying to continue to WORK at the law, which all over says it is impossible. And not the purpose of the law
No one is saying the study of the law should be stopped. We are apposed trying to continue to WORK at the law, which all over says it is impossible. And not the purpose of the law
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