Is baptism required for salvation?

[garee]

"Outward sign"...when baptism last for 2-3 minutes?....makes no sense.
Our outward sign is ....how righteous we live thru service to Christ as a follower.

Baptism is a total sign of our spiritual commitment to Christ.

I don't think the length of time as a shadow of the new heavens and earth matters , Five minutes of getting wet or five hours would make no difference in the end of the matter.

The ceremonial sign pertaining to a kingdom of Priest is after the new order . Jesus from the tribe of Judah. The change in priesthood form Levi to all the nations of the world that do have a desire to minster his word. Those who do not have a desire given to go out in the world have no need for the ceremony. Just as all Levites were not priest.

Hebrews 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Hebrews 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Hebrews 7:24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

 

[garee]

No need to be confused. The bible speaks clearly about baptism. Only until very recently did modern preachers err from the ancient ways.

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Christ couldn't have been talking about baptism with the Holy Ghost here because Acts 2 had not happened yet. What would have been the context that the disciples heard this in?

The baptism of desire...non effectual

The baptism of those who have a desire to become a priest after the new order that came by Christ coming in the manner of Melchidek and not after the old order of Aaron is why the discussion broke out with those who did walk by sight. The new order was no longer after one from the tribe of Levi. It offended them when they saw one from the tribe of Judas ceremonially preparing others for the ministry to send them out with the gospel, as a kingdom of priest.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven..John 3:25-27

 

[justapilgrim]

Yes, our high priest is of a different order, but the type/anti-type relationships of the symbols of our priesthood have not changed. Water and washing still relates to purification and forgiveness. Before the law, the antediluvian world was purged of exceedingly sinful people by water. Peter points at the flood as an anti-type to baptism in 1 Peter 3:21. The creation itself was situated behind two collections of water and was very good.

"The baptism of desire... non effectual"

Luke 3:3
"He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins "

this baptism was not effectively forgiving sins?


Acts 8:36
The enuch rejoiced when he came up out of the water. Did he rejoice too soon? Just earlier before Phillip came up on the chariot he did not know what he was reading.

Acts 22:16
Paul saw the risen Jesus on the road, he was blind for 3 days (probably praying for mercy and forgiveness). Ananias tells him to "arise and be baptized, washing away his sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

Was Ananias misinformed?

There is one baptism, it is not the miraculous pouring out of the spirit like we see in Acts 2 and Acts 10 only. It is the immersion of water, done in faith, for the remission of sins. Only then, does one receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38.

If you look at Acts 8, 10, 19 it is plain to see in the text that the baptism of Jesus Christ is immersion in water and is not preceded by a miraculous event by the Spirit other than the saved encountering the word of God in which the spirit dwells.

 

[justapilgrim]

Also, the symbolism of circumcision still applies despite the change in the order of the priest.

 

[plaintalk]

In His sovereignty, God reveals His will as He wills. Matthew 13: 10-17 and 1
Corinthians 2 gives some insight. Consider these verses, “ For by grace you have
been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a
result of works, so that no one may boast.” Have you heard people say, “Well we
know that this means that we are saved by faith alone as no other factors are
mentioned. Or a work is a work, is a work, is a work.” Meaning, that all works are
the same, they don’t save. Or “We are not saved by any kind of works, including
baptism.” Sometimes God does not define the meaning of terms completely or
exhaustively in any one place.

What if God had said, “For by grace you have been saved through a perfected faith
(James 2: 22-24); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of god; not as a
result of works of the law and works of righteousness, so that no one may boast.”
Is everyone who believes approved of God? (John 12: 42, 43)
Are there levels of faith? (James 2: 22)
What is a perfected faith? (Gen. 22: 12, 18)
What are works of faith? (1 Thess. 1: 3)
What is the obedience of faith? (Rom. 1: 5)
Are there works which save? (Rom. 2: 6-10)
Are there works which save that are performed prior to salvation? (Acts 2: 21;
Rom. 10: 10; 2 Cor. 7: 10; 1 Peter 3: 21)
May God bless us all as we search His word.

 

[plaintalk]

Abraham
“Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.”
(Gen 15: 6)

Have you heard people say in our human wisdom, “This proves that justification is
by faith alone as no works are mentioned? Is that a valid conclusion? In my
opinion it is not; first, prior to this verse Abraham, perhaps for ten years, had been
performing works of faith. By faith Abraham obeyed when called (Heb. 11: 8) and
he had been living in the land of promise as an alien (Heb. 11: 9); secondly, God
tested His faith citing this very verse (Gen. 22: 1; James 2: 20- 24))

By faith Abraham offered up Isaac as a burnt offering; this was a work of faith
(Heb. 11: 17; James 2: 22) performed before he was given God’s approval. James
tells us that his faith was working with his works (of faith) and as a result of his
works, faith was perfected. Then James tells us that this very verse, Gen. 15: 6,
was fulfilled and he was called a friend of God. The James confirmed this
conclusion by saying, “ you see that a man is justified by work, and not by faith
alone.” (James 2; 24)

James statement about works does not conflict with Paul’s statement in Ephesians
2: 8, 9, because Abraham’s works were works of faith appointed by God. The angel
of the Lord said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to
him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son,
your only son, from Me.” (Gen. 22: 12) Again, “In your seed all the nations of the
earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” A perfected faith is an
obedient faith.
God bless, praise His name.

 

[justapilgrim]

In His sovereignty, God reveals His will as He wills. Matthew 13: 10-17 and 1
Corinthians 2 gives some insight. Consider these verses, “ For by grace you have
been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a
result of works, so that no one may boast.” Have you heard people say, “Well we
know that this means that we are saved by faith alone as no other factors are
mentioned. Or a work is a work, is a work, is a work.” Meaning, that all works are
the same, they don’t save. Or “We are not saved by any kind of works, including
baptism.” Sometimes God does not define the meaning of terms completely or
exhaustively in any one place.

What if God had said, “For by grace you have been saved through a perfected faith
(James 2: 22-24); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of god; not as a
result of works of the law and works of righteousness, so that no one may boast.”
Is everyone who believes approved of God? (John 12: 42, 43)
Are there levels of faith? (James 2: 22)
What is a perfected faith? (Gen. 22: 12, 18)
What are works of faith? (1 Thess. 1: 3)
What is the obedience of faith? (Rom. 1: 5)
Are there works which save? (Rom. 2: 6-10)
Are there works which save that are performed prior to salvation? (Acts 2: 21;
Rom. 10: 10; 2 Cor. 7: 10; 1 Peter 3: 21)
May God bless us all as we search His word.

Yes, you are straw-maning my argument.

Baptism does not earn us salvation. It is an act of obedience after which we are forgiven of our sins. Blood is the only way sin is forgiven (Heb 9:22) and Christ is the one who has purchased our salvation. Baptism is our participation in the death-burial-ressurrection of Christ according to Romans 6.

Eph 2:8 is clear, we are saved by faith in the redemptive work of the blood of Christ. This is one of the most quoted verses now. But it cannot be understood in isolation.

You are implying that no works are ever necessary besides mental assent that Jesus is the son of God?
How does Heb 5:8-9 fit into that?

though He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. and having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him


Or Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

I won't repeat here all the verses related to baptism. Why do you wrestle with the scripture? Ephesians was written to saints! Acts is the book that records conversion!

 

[plaintalk]

Exactly. Water baptism is an act of obedience to Christ. IMO, it is/should be the 1st act of obedience. Christ gave us an example, and we should do it.

Water baptism serves two purposes:
1) It serves as a witness to the world that a person has become a disciple of Christ.
2) It serves as a witness to the Church that a person has become a disciple of Christ.

What water baptism DOES NOT do is save! Were it necessary for salvation (eternal life), then John 3:16 would read much differently would it not? "whosoever believeth in Him, and is water baptized........" As would ALL the other Scriptures that speak of believeing in Christ for salvation. Goodness, IF it were that important, do folks NOT think God would have said so?

IMO John 3: 16 is speaking of a saving faith, a faith perfected by obedience motivated by love.
God bless

 

[plaintalk]

Please show me one scripture which says, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved."

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

IMO faith is perfected by obedience and love; if a person believes but is not baptized, does not obey, we are looking at an imperfect faith such as is mentioned in John 12: 42, 43, a faith that would not confess Jesus before men. Those who do not obey await eternal destruction. 2 Thess. 1: 8-10
God bless

 

[preston39]

So, in the vast deserts of Ethiopia, it hasn't rained in 10 years. A missionary works there, and he led a young man, his mother, and brother to Christ. They accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, and all were filled with joy!

A year later, another missionary passes by, and asks if anyone knows Christ. The young man replied "Yes, I, my mother and my brother are Christians. We accepted Christ as Lord and Savior just last year." The missionary asks "Were you water baptized?"

"No" replied the young man. "Then you are not saved" said the missionary.

"But, but, there is NO WATER" lamented the young man

Water baptism DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE!

That is poopy cock...bovine residue...if there was no water there they would not be alive.
Try again.

 

[justapilgrim]

"So, in the vast deserts of Ethiopia, it hasn't rained in 10 years. A missionary works there, and he led a young man, his mother, and brother to Christ. They accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior, and all were filled with joy!

A year later, another missionary passes by, and asks if anyone knows Christ. The young man replied "Yes, I, my mother and my brother are Christians. We accepted Christ as Lord and Savior just last year." The missionary asks "Were you water baptized?"

"No" replied the young man. "Then you are not saved" said the missionary.

"But, but, there is NO WATER" lamented the young man

Water baptism DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE! "


Thought experiments like this do not invalidate the word. I might even go so far as to say you are tempting God when you consider such things.

I don't believe God would allow a person with true faith to not have water for baptism. God will provide water when it is needed. He can bring it out of the rock.

 

[preston39]

Please show me one scripture which says, "whoever is not water baptized will not be saved."

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

m....,

You have added words to G-d's bible. Not cricket.
You cannot make a statement and then not provide support for that position.

I will accommodate you any way;

I Pet. 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

John 3:5 ... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There are others. But, you will reject them all so why do you ask for them?

Also why has your ......no baptism required position...... only evolved since the 1960"s?... show me one shred of evidence of it being hypothesized before the 1960's?

 

[preston39]

timed out....

...by any evangelical or other serious christian teacher?